Baseball Tonight and franchise players discussion

[Paladin Cecil]

Starting yesterday, Baseball Tonight has been doing a segment regarding the top 3 players for each franchise as voted on by the ESPN crew and the viewers. Yesterday, they did the top 3 players for the Cardinals and today, they did the top 3 players for the Reds.

 

The choices for the Cardinals were:

ESPN:

1. Stan Musial

2. Bob Gibson

3. Lou Brock

Viewers:

1. Stan Musial

2. Ozzie Smith

3. Bob Gibson

 

The choices for the Reds were:

ESPN:

1. Johnny Bench

2. Pete Rose

3. Frank Robinson

Viewers:

1. Pete Rose

2. Johnny Bench

3. Bucky Walters

 

What are your thoughts on the choices selected for the Cardinals and Reds and which players would you have chosen and in what order?

My choices for the Cardinals would've been:

1. Stan Musial

2. Rogers Hornsby

3. Lou Brock

Cincinnati Reds:

1. Pete Rose

2. Johnny Bench

3. Ernie Lombardi

 

Tomorrow, they'll be doing the greatest players for the White Sox.

[jiml60]

Red Satanic Fowl:

1. Stan Musial

2. Rogers Hornsby

3. Bob Gibson

 

Redlegs:

1. Johnny Bench

2. Pete Rose

3. Frank Robinson

 

Pale Hose:

1. Shoeless Joe Jackson

2. Ed Walsh

3. Frank Thomas

[OleMissCub]

Pale Hose:

1. Shoeless Joe Jackson

 

Joe Jackson is a difficult guy to classify because I believe his best seasons came with the Indians, however his fame (or infamy) is with the White Sox. Furthermore, if he hadn't been thrown out of the game, it is likely he would have stayed with the White Sox most of the rest of his career. So he is hard to classify.

 

Tris Speaker is in the same boat as well. He had 9 seasons with the BoSox and 11 with the Indians. Like Jackson, I think his best years came with his first team, the Red Sox. However, 8 of his seasons with the Indians were as player/manager and he led them to a World Series in 1920.

[NonProfitCow]

I'm a Cardinal fan and I can't see Lou Brock as a top 7 player. He's about as completely overrated as they come.

[OleMissCub]

I'm a Cardinal fan and I can't see Lou Brock as a top 7 player. He's about as completely overrated as they come.

 

Indeed. BBTN puts Brock above ROGERS FREAKING HORNSBY?????

 

I don't know about y'all, but where I come from, .358/.434/.577, 175 OPS+ >>>>>>>> .293/.343/.410, 109 OPS+

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I find it very difficult to find sympathy that Rogers Hornsby isn't on a list bringing him acclaim. On the other hand, Lou Brock being on a list when you have Musial, Gibson, Smith, Pujols, and Dean to choose from? haha

[OleMissCub]

I find it very difficult to find sympathy that Rogers Hornsby isn't on a list bringing him acclaim. On the other hand, Lou Brock being on a list when you have Musial, Gibson, Smith, Pujols, and Dean to choose from? haha

 

In that three spot instead of Brock I would have taken (in no order)

 

Dean

Slaughter

Pujols

Ozzie

Medwick

Hornsby

Edmonds

Frisch

Edmonds

Boyer

[TruffleShuffle]

1. musial

2. hornsby

3. ozzie smith

 

pujols will replace ozzie on the list in a couple of years.

[Slugger_16]

I'm most surprised the Cards fans didn't vote for So Taguchi.

[NCCubFan]

Pale Hose:

1. Shoeless Joe Jackson

 

Joe Jackson is a difficult guy to classify because I believe his best seasons came with the Indians, however his fame (or infamy) is with the White Sox. Furthermore, if he hadn't been thrown out of the game, it is likely he would have stayed with the White Sox most of the rest of his career. So he is hard to classify.

 

Tris Speaker is in the same boat as well. He had 9 seasons with the BoSox and 11 with the Indians. Like Jackson, I think his best years came with his first team, the Red Sox. However, 8 of his seasons with the Indians were as player/manager and he led them to a World Series in 1920.

I think Frank Robinson also fits that description. He had great seasons with both the Reds and Orioles (including an MVP season with both teams), so it's hard to think of him specifically as a Red or Oriole.

 

Maybe they need a separate category for multi-team players who were all-time greats when considering their entire careers, but not for one single team.

[badnews]

I don't understand the cult of Lou Brock. It's supposed to be this deep wound for Cubs fans but I don't really care about it. Does Houston castigate themselves daily for not hanging on to Kenny Lofton?

[TruffleShuffle]

I don't understand the cult of Lou Brock. It's supposed to be this deep wound for Cubs fans but I don't really care about it. Does Houston castigate themselves daily for not hanging on to Kenny Lofton?

 

they probably should, because kenny lofton was pretty awesome early in his career.

 

they should also be pretty pissed about leaving johan santana unprotected for the rule v draft. though the marlins can also feel really dumb too (the twins drafted jared camp, then traded him to the marlins for santana, who was drafted second. the marlins also threw in the $500,000 to pay for drafting santana. whoops.)

[badnews]

The Astros bumbled away Abreu too if I remember correctly. Apparently though, none of this is as bad as Brock. You'd think it was Babe Ruth all over again.

[Jehrico]

I'm a Cardinal fan and I can't see Lou Brock as a top 7 player. He's about as completely overrated as they come.

 

Indeed. BBTN puts Brock above ROGERS FREAKING HORNSBY?????

 

I don't know about y'all, but where I come from, .358/.434/.577, 175 OPS+ >>>>>>>> .293/.343/.410, 109 OPS+

Yeah, but Brock played leadoff!

[Ding Dong Johnson]

ugh, lol, omg, and whatnot at Ozzie Smith. defense be damned, if he's in the top 3 all-time in your franchise's history, I would hope your franchise isn't as old as the Cardinals

[erik316wttn]

ugh, lol, omg, and whatnot at Ozzie Smith. defense be damned, if he's in the top 3 all-time in your franchise's history, I would hope your franchise isn't as old as the Cardinals

 

Now THERE is an overrated Cardinal. Good lord.

[Derwood]

ugh, lol, omg, and whatnot at Ozzie Smith. defense be damned, if he's in the top 3 all-time in your franchise's history, I would hope your franchise isn't as old as the Cardinals

 

Now THERE is an overrated Cardinal. Good lord.

 

HE DID BACKFLIPS!!!!!

 

I've always sorta hated Ozzie and McGee and those guys because my first favorite baseball team was the '82 Brewers (I was 7 and living in Racine at the time) and they beat the Crew in the WS that year

[CubFanBudMan68]

Cards - Bob Gibson, Stan Musial, Ozzie Smith

 

Reds - Johnny Bench, Barry Larkin, Frank Robinson

[OleMissCub]

I don't understand the cult of Lou Brock. It's supposed to be this deep wound for Cubs fans but I don't really care about it. Does Houston castigate themselves daily for not hanging on to Kenny Lofton?

 

I don't know if it's a deep wound, but I won't lie and say that I think Brock wouldn't have helped us in the 60's. He certainly would have, especially in a year like 1969.

 

Other than Williams, in 1969 our main outfielders were Don Young and Jim Hickman who put up these numbers:

 

Don Young (1969): -0.6 VORP

Jim Hickman (1969): 6.5 VORP

 

Lou Brock had a pretty good year that year and certainly would have added more to the club than Young, Hickman, or any other outfielder we played that year other than Williams

 

Lou Brock (1969): 35.9 VORP

[bukie]

So, when they do the Cubs, who are your three Cub franchise players? Ernie Banks, Ryne Sandberg, Ron Santo, Billy Williams, Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Tinker-Evers-Chance, Sammy Sosa, Fergie Jenkins, Three-Finger Brown, quite a few names to choose from.

 

Without too much thought, I'd probably go 1) Ernie Banks, 2) Ryne Sandberg 3) Ron Santo, but one of the pitchers likely deserves to be in there as well.

[Derwood]

Banks, Sosa and ????

[OleMissCub]

Banks, Sandberg, and Sosa.

 

Those three are probably the most identifiable Cubs players in baseball history.

[rocket]

i'd go banks, sosa, sandberg.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

i'd go banks, sosa, sandberg.

 

I'd probably go that way too, but Sandberg barely passes Fergie in my list.

[TruffleShuffle]

1. cap anson

2. ernie banks

3. ron santo

4. ryne sandberg

5. gabby hartnett

6. billy williams

7. sammy sosa

8. fergie jenkins

9. billy herman

10. mordecai brown