Another Trade Target?

[Backtobanks]

Jocketty Names Five Untouchable Reds

Bob Hunter of the Columbus Dispatch relays a Walt Jocketty radio show appearance. Jocketty reportedly named five untouchable Reds players: Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Edinson Volquez, Johnny Cueto, and Edwin Encarnacion. Hunter is surprised to see Encarnacion labeled off-limits. The 25 year-old third baseman has a career line of .268/.344/.450 in 396 games. With several .900+ OPS months on his resume, EE has shown flashes of star potential offensively.

 

Veterans Francisco Cordero, Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, and Brandon Phillips apparently did not make the list. Only Arroyo has been mentioned in trade rumors this year; the rest seem unlikely to go anywhere. But it should be noted that Jocketty wasn't with the organization when the Cordero, Harang, and Arroyo contracts were signed and might be more willing to move them.

 

Aaron Harang would look pretty good as a #2 or #3 starter. It ought to be interesting as the Reds try to go younger with Dusty as their manager. They ought to be able to pull in some pretty good prospects if they trade Griffey, Dunn, and Harang. I assume they would want some pitching, so probably Hill or Marshall would be part of the deal.

[NCCubFan]

Harang is having a terrible year this year. Since Hendry is likely to go all out to win this year I don't think trading for Harang and hoping he bounces back next year is in the cards.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Harang is in the same boat as Burnett. Based on their track record, they look like good acquisitions. They both have struggled some this year, but Harang less than Burnett. His ERA+ the past three seasons has been 125, 124, and 112. For this season, he stands at 103.

 

This is how his contract looks going forward: 08:$6.75M, 09:$11M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$12.75M ($2M buyout) It's not overly burdensome and is probably a bargain for next year.

 

He'd be a definite upgrade over Marquis on the back end and would be easier to trust than Gallagher down the stretch. My fear is that his certainty in contract will make him more expensive than some of the rentals out there. Teams would be more willing to shell out the prospects because they would know that they would get something for them in the long term as well as the short term.

 

I would not hate to acquire him, but he's not at the top of my list.

[RynoRules]

If the deal were "take Harang and we will include Dunn", then sign me up.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Dusty broke Harang with his idiotic extra inning shenanigans. Until he shows that he's not screwed up physically from that, I'd stay far away.

[SpongeWorthy]

So what do you think the potential price tag on a Harang trade is vs. say Rich Harden? I'd prefer Harang...he's a horse and I couldn't stand another Prior-type situation. I remember back in 03 and all anyone could talk about was how Prior, Harden, and Beckett were going to rack up every Cy Young for the rest of the decade--only Beckett's lived up to his potential.

 

4 years of 200+ innings and ~120 ERA+ is rare and he's still only 30 with a reasonable contract going forward.

[CoolHandLuke]

So what do you think the potential price tag on a Harang trade is vs. say Rich Harden? I'd prefer Harang...he's a horse and I couldn't stand another Prior-type situation. I remember back in 03 and all anyone could talk about was how Prior, Harden, and Beckett were going to rack up every Cy Young for the rest of the decade--only Beckett's lived up to his potential.

 

4 years of 200+ innings and ~120 ERA+ is rare and he's still only 30 with a reasonable contract going forward.

 

who are you talking about? Harang has only had 3 years with 200 ip and 2 years with an ERA+ 120 or above.

[badnews]

Is anyone else becoming more disenfranchised with Burnett? He gets strikeouts but he doesn't always (or this year, often) get results. A typical box score seems to be something like 6 IP, 4 ER, 7 K. Plus is this a guy who is going to bring his A game to the playoffs? I don't know.

 

Burnett looks like he may pull a 2002 Brandon Duckworth, i.e. strikeouts and ineffectiveness.

[Guest]

Is anyone else becoming more disenfranchised with Burnett? He gets strikeouts but he doesn't always (or this year, often) get results. A typical box score seems to be something like 6 IP, 4 ER, 7 K. Plus is this a guy who is going to bring his A game to the playoffs? I don't know.

 

Burnett looks like he may pull a 2002 Brandon Duckworth, i.e. strikeouts and ineffectiveness.

 

Agreed. I know he's posted four straight years (coming into this season) with ERA+'s in the 110's but he's flat out stunk this year. His BABIP is .337 so he has been a bit unlucky but that 1.56 WHIP is ugly (Marquis is 1.49). He's given up more than a hit per inning and is on a pace to set a career high in walks. Basically, his stats are down across the board. And we're past the point where bad stats can be attributed to a small sample size. I'm not quite sure why so many people are enamored with him.

[davell]

I don't see Jocketty trading ANYONE to the Cubs. Same division and other teams would be offering comparable packages, which makes it a lot easier to send someone outside the division as it is.

[third eye]

Is anyone else becoming more disenfranchised with Burnett? He gets strikeouts but he doesn't always (or this year, often) get results. A typical box score seems to be something like 6 IP, 4 ER, 7 K. Plus is this a guy who is going to bring his A game to the playoffs? I don't know.

 

Burnett looks like he may pull a 2002 Brandon Duckworth, i.e. strikeouts and ineffectiveness.

 

Did he stop you from going to the polls? :-k Sorry, couldn't resist.

[RynoRules]

Is anyone else becoming more disenfranchised with Burnett? He gets strikeouts but he doesn't always (or this year, often) get results. A typical box score seems to be something like 6 IP, 4 ER, 7 K. Plus is this a guy who is going to bring his A game to the playoffs? I don't know.

 

Burnett looks like he may pull a 2002 Brandon Duckworth, i.e. strikeouts and ineffectiveness.

 

Did he stop you from going to the polls? :-k Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Yeah, that one was weird. Especially from a guy who consistently mocks others.

[Amazing_Grace]

I think Harang would be about as good a bet as Burnett would. I don't know if Cincinnatti or Chicago would want to risk trading within the division though. The Cubs could end up watching whoever they send help the Reds be contenders for years to come, and the Reds could end up looking stupid like the Pirates did after 2003 for sending a key long term contributor to a division rival for basically nothing.

 

If this could be done with Pie, Murton, Cedeno and low minors guys without including Hill, Marshall, or Gallagher, I'd be pretty happy. The latter three are the only Cub prospects that I would be worried about coming back to bite us that badly.

[Jehrico]

Dusty broke Harang with his idiotic extra inning shenanigans. Until he shows that he's not screwed up physically from that, I'd stay far away.

Good point. I'm not big on aquiring any pitchers that are currently being abused by Dusty. Caveat Emptor.

See: San Diego and Mark Prior.

[SpongeWorthy]

So what do you think the potential price tag on a Harang trade is vs. say Rich Harden? I'd prefer Harang...he's a horse and I couldn't stand another Prior-type situation. I remember back in 03 and all anyone could talk about was how Prior, Harden, and Beckett were going to rack up every Cy Young for the rest of the decade--only Beckett's lived up to his potential.

 

4 years of 200+ innings and ~120 ERA+ is rare and he's still only 30 with a reasonable contract going forward.

 

who are you talking about? Harang has only had 3 years with 200 ip and 2 years with an ERA+ 120 or above.

 

Is it really unclear as to who I'm talking about or are you just nitpicking for the hell of it?

 

I'm assuming he's going to get over 200 IP this year. He'll probably fall short of the 120 ERA+ but if he improves from his mediocre-ish numbers he'll be close to it if you aggregate the 4 years.

[rawaction]

Something's really wrong when people don't even want to entertain the thought of Bedard or Harang. Price tag aside, either of those guys would be great acquisitions.

[Jehrico]

Something's really wrong when people don't even want to entertain the thought of Bedard or Harang. Price tag aside, either of those guys would be great acquisitions.

Except that they're both having horrible years and would cost too much. We're not looking for long term acquisitions, we're looking to win it all this year. Neither of those guys are performing in a manner to justify thinking they could help us this year more than any inhouse options. If they were having normal seasons, then they'd be worth whatever we'd give up to get them.

[rawaction]

Something's really wrong when people don't even want to entertain the thought of Bedard or Harang. Price tag aside, either of those guys would be great acquisitions.

Except that they're both having horrible years and would cost too much. We're not looking for long term acquisitions, we're looking to win it all this year. Neither of those guys are performing in a manner to justify thinking they could help us this year more than any inhouse options. If they were having normal seasons, then they'd be worth whatever we'd give up to get them.

 

Nobody that has been against either pitcher has talked about what they would cost in terms of prospects. All I keep reading is how both are struggling this year, when both have been around average pitchers this year who have a recent history of being among the top 20 in baseball. Both Harang and Bedard are better pitchers than Burnett, who most of the board (me included) would love. Again, I know balancing the cost in terms of prospects, Burnett probably makes the most sense, but to not be interested in Bedard or Harang at all is baffling.

[Jehrico]

Something's really wrong when people don't even want to entertain the thought of Bedard or Harang. Price tag aside, either of those guys would be great acquisitions.

Except that they're both having horrible years and would cost too much. We're not looking for long term acquisitions, we're looking to win it all this year. Neither of those guys are performing in a manner to justify thinking they could help us this year more than any inhouse options. If they were having normal seasons, then they'd be worth whatever we'd give up to get them.

 

Nobody that has been against either pitcher has talked about what they would cost in terms of prospects. All I keep reading is how both are struggling this year, when both have been around average pitchers this year who have a recent history of being among the top 20 in baseball. Both Harang and Bedard are better pitchers than Burnett, who most of the board (me included) would love. Again, I know balancing the cost in terms of prospects, Burnett probably makes the most sense, but to not be interested in Bedard or Harang at all is baffling.

Not really. There's no reason to expect either of them to do better than, say, Marshall, nor any expectation that they'll be good enough to bounce into a three man rotation in the postseason with Z, Demp, and Lilly pitching better than they can be expected to. We have few decent trading chips in the system. If we give up any of those chips for Bedard or Harang, then we have little left to bargain with, and we take ourselves out of the running for a legit #2 like we're all hoping to get. I don't want to make a move that may make sense in the long term at the expense of making a better move for the short term.

[CoolHandLuke]

So what do you think the potential price tag on a Harang trade is vs. say Rich Harden? I'd prefer Harang...he's a horse and I couldn't stand another Prior-type situation. I remember back in 03 and all anyone could talk about was how Prior, Harden, and Beckett were going to rack up every Cy Young for the rest of the decade--only Beckett's lived up to his potential.

 

4 years of 200+ innings and ~120 ERA+ is rare and he's still only 30 with a reasonable contract going forward.

 

who are you talking about? Harang has only had 3 years with 200 ip and 2 years with an ERA+ 120 or above.

 

Is it really unclear as to who I'm talking about or are you just nitpicking for the hell of it?

 

I'm assuming he's going to get over 200 IP this year. He'll probably fall short of the 120 ERA+ but if he improves from his mediocre-ish numbers he'll be close to it if you aggregate the 4 years.

 

How is it nitpicking? You listed the accomplishments of someone who hasn't accomplished them.

[Guancous]

Harang/Bedard > Marquis/Marshall

[CoolHandLuke]

Something's really wrong when people don't even want to entertain the thought of Bedard or Harang. Price tag aside, either of those guys would be great acquisitions.

Except that they're both having horrible years and would cost too much. We're not looking for long term acquisitions, we're looking to win it all this year. Neither of those guys are performing in a manner to justify thinking they could help us this year more than any inhouse options. If they were having normal seasons, then they'd be worth whatever we'd give up to get them.

 

Nobody that has been against either pitcher has talked about what they would cost in terms of prospects. All I keep reading is how both are struggling this year, when both have been around average pitchers this year who have a recent history of being among the top 20 in baseball. Both Harang and Bedard are better pitchers than Burnett, who most of the board (me included) would love. Again, I know balancing the cost in terms of prospects, Burnett probably makes the most sense, but to not be interested in Bedard or Harang at all is baffling.

Not really. There's no reason to expect either of them to do better than, say, Marshall, nor any expectation that they'll be good enough to bounce into a three man rotation in the postseason with Z, Demp, and Lilly pitching better than they can be expected to. We have few decent trading chips in the system. If we give up any of those chips for Bedard or Harang, then we have little left to bargain with, and we take ourselves out of the running for a legit #2 like we're all hoping to get. I don't want to make a move that may make sense in the long term at the expense of making a better move for the short term.

 

I think, given Bedard's and Harang's history, you have every reason to predict that they will pitch better than Marshall for the remainder of the season.

[Jehrico]

Something's really wrong when people don't even want to entertain the thought of Bedard or Harang. Price tag aside, either of those guys would be great acquisitions.

Except that they're both having horrible years and would cost too much. We're not looking for long term acquisitions, we're looking to win it all this year. Neither of those guys are performing in a manner to justify thinking they could help us this year more than any inhouse options. If they were having normal seasons, then they'd be worth whatever we'd give up to get them.

 

Nobody that has been against either pitcher has talked about what they would cost in terms of prospects. All I keep reading is how both are struggling this year, when both have been around average pitchers this year who have a recent history of being among the top 20 in baseball. Both Harang and Bedard are better pitchers than Burnett, who most of the board (me included) would love. Again, I know balancing the cost in terms of prospects, Burnett probably makes the most sense, but to not be interested in Bedard or Harang at all is baffling.

Not really. There's no reason to expect either of them to do better than, say, Marshall, nor any expectation that they'll be good enough to bounce into a three man rotation in the postseason with Z, Demp, and Lilly pitching better than they can be expected to. We have few decent trading chips in the system. If we give up any of those chips for Bedard or Harang, then we have little left to bargain with, and we take ourselves out of the running for a legit #2 like we're all hoping to get. I don't want to make a move that may make sense in the long term at the expense of making a better move for the short term.

 

I think, given Bedard's and Harang's history, you have every reason to predict that they will pitch better than Marshall for the remainder of the season.

Not the way they're pitching this year. Regardless, they still don't improve what our three-man postseason rotation will be. We're not looking like we need help improving our chances of making the postseason, we should be looking for moves to improve our chances of winning the WS. Improving our 4th and 5th rotation slots doesn't accomplish that.

[CoolHandLuke]

Something's really wrong when people don't even want to entertain the thought of Bedard or Harang. Price tag aside, either of those guys would be great acquisitions.

Except that they're both having horrible years and would cost too much. We're not looking for long term acquisitions, we're looking to win it all this year. Neither of those guys are performing in a manner to justify thinking they could help us this year more than any inhouse options. If they were having normal seasons, then they'd be worth whatever we'd give up to get them.

 

Nobody that has been against either pitcher has talked about what they would cost in terms of prospects. All I keep reading is how both are struggling this year, when both have been around average pitchers this year who have a recent history of being among the top 20 in baseball. Both Harang and Bedard are better pitchers than Burnett, who most of the board (me included) would love. Again, I know balancing the cost in terms of prospects, Burnett probably makes the most sense, but to not be interested in Bedard or Harang at all is baffling.

Not really. There's no reason to expect either of them to do better than, say, Marshall, nor any expectation that they'll be good enough to bounce into a three man rotation in the postseason with Z, Demp, and Lilly pitching better than they can be expected to. We have few decent trading chips in the system. If we give up any of those chips for Bedard or Harang, then we have little left to bargain with, and we take ourselves out of the running for a legit #2 like we're all hoping to get. I don't want to make a move that may make sense in the long term at the expense of making a better move for the short term.

 

I think, given Bedard's and Harang's history, you have every reason to predict that they will pitch better than Marshall for the remainder of the season.

Not the way they're pitching this year. Regardless, they still don't improve what our three-man postseason rotation will be. We're not looking like we need help improving our chances of making the postseason, we should be looking for moves to improve our chances of winning the WS. Improving our 4th and 5th rotation slots doesn't accomplish that.

 

But are they pitching differently this year, or are they just getting different results? I certainly don't know, they could have declined, but I'm guessing they are virtually the same pitchers they were last year. I would gladly have either one of them on the team, and regardless of a half years worth of stats I still consider them to be at least #2 starters.

[rawaction]

Something's really wrong when people don't even want to entertain the thought of Bedard or Harang. Price tag aside, either of those guys would be great acquisitions.

Except that they're both having horrible years and would cost too much. We're not looking for long term acquisitions, we're looking to win it all this year. Neither of those guys are performing in a manner to justify thinking they could help us this year more than any inhouse options. If they were having normal seasons, then they'd be worth whatever we'd give up to get them.

 

Nobody that has been against either pitcher has talked about what they would cost in terms of prospects. All I keep reading is how both are struggling this year, when both have been around average pitchers this year who have a recent history of being among the top 20 in baseball. Both Harang and Bedard are better pitchers than Burnett, who most of the board (me included) would love. Again, I know balancing the cost in terms of prospects, Burnett probably makes the most sense, but to not be interested in Bedard or Harang at all is baffling.

Not really. There's no reason to expect either of them to do better than, say, Marshall, nor any expectation that they'll be good enough to bounce into a three man rotation in the postseason with Z, Demp, and Lilly pitching better than they can be expected to. We have few decent trading chips in the system. If we give up any of those chips for Bedard or Harang, then we have little left to bargain with, and we take ourselves out of the running for a legit #2 like we're all hoping to get. I don't want to make a move that may make sense in the long term at the expense of making a better move for the short term.

 

I think, given Bedard's and Harang's history, you have every reason to predict that they will pitch better than Marshall for the remainder of the season.

Not the way they're pitching this year. Regardless, they still don't improve what our three-man postseason rotation will be. We're not looking like we need help improving our chances of making the postseason, we should be looking for moves to improve our chances of winning the WS. Improving our 4th and 5th rotation slots doesn't accomplish that.

 

First of all, there's only a 3-man rotation in the 1st round. In all other rounds, most teams need a 4th starter. Secondly, all these people are clamoring for Burnett....he's clearly not as good THIS YEAR as Bedard and Harang. If Bedard and Harang aren't good enough, you are basically on the Sabathia or bust bandwagon, I must assume.