J.P. Riccardi and Adam Dunn

[Tracer Bullet]

JP sounds like a guy who can feel how warm his seat is. JP, if your phone rings at 3am, I wouldn't answer.

[davearm2]

i was listening to espn radio, and doug gottlieb was bashing ricciardi for this. no, not because what he said was stupid. because what he said was RIGHT, and then he caved in to the PC world and backed off from his statement. he then went on to say that there was a reason nobody wanted adam dunn and his $13M salary, because he strikes out too much and has no passion for the game.

 

doug gottlieb, welcome to the ESPN stable of former athletes turned mentally challenged analysts/hosts.

Let me be clear that Ricciardi never should have said what he did.

 

But speaking strictly on the issue of Dunn's passion for the game, we'd all be wise to realize that Ricciardi and the Jays' FO knows way more than any of us do about stuff like this.

 

The Jays have a whole staff of folks (scouts, coaches, etc) spread throughout baseball standing next to batting cages, hanging around clubhouses, and chatting in hotel bars, whose collective job is to gather just this sort of information on players.

 

I'd say Ricciardi and the Jays' FO know a whole lot more about Adam Dunn than any of us do, so if he/they question the guy's drive, I'm inclined to think there's something to it.

 

What seems to be getting lost because Ricciardi shouldn't have said what he said here is, what he said is probably accurate. Without hearing his comments, I suspect that's what Gottlieb is talking about here.

[Jon]

Even if Dunn had no "passion" for baseball, what does it matter? Does it somehow reduce his production?

 

It was a stupid thing to say all around.

[JimSorgi]

Talent doesn't matter. The only thing that can win a World Series is passion.

[davearm2]

Even if Dunn had no "passion" for baseball, what does it matter? Does it somehow reduce his production?

 

It was a stupid thing to say all around.

Well this really shifts the focus to the value of intangibles, and whether all .900 OPS hitters are created equal.

 

Many ascribe to the notion that not everything that counts, can be counted. Apparently Ricciardi is one.

[Jon]

Even if Dunn had no "passion" for baseball, what does it matter? Does it somehow reduce his production?

 

It was a stupid thing to say all around.

Well this really shifts the focus to the value of intangibles, and whether all .900 OPS hitters are created equal.

 

Many ascribe to the notion that not everything that counts, can be counted. Apparently Ricciardi is one.

What intangible? The only thing I can think of is that his lack of passion would somehow make everyone around him worse, which is an idea that probably doesn't need to be given a second thought.

 

A home run is a home run, a walk is a walk, and a strikeout is a strikeout regardless of the player's enjoyment while doing it.

[Jehrico]

i was listening to espn radio, and doug gottlieb was bashing ricciardi for this. no, not because what he said was stupid. because what he said was RIGHT, and then he caved in to the PC world and backed off from his statement. he then went on to say that there was a reason nobody wanted adam dunn and his $13M salary, because he strikes out too much and has no passion for the game.

 

doug gottlieb, welcome to the ESPN stable of former athletes turned mentally challenged analysts/hosts.

Let me be clear that Ricciardi never should have said what he did.

 

But speaking strictly on the issue of Dunn's passion for the game, we'd all be wise to realize that Ricciardi and the Jays' FO knows way more than any of us do about stuff like this.

 

The Jays have a whole staff of folks (scouts, coaches, etc) spread throughout baseball standing next to batting cages, hanging around clubhouses, and chatting in hotel bars, whose collective job is to gather just this sort of information on players.

 

I'd say Ricciardi and the Jays' FO know a whole lot more about Adam Dunn than any of us do, so if he/they question the guy's drive, I'm inclined to think there's something to it.

 

What seems to be getting lost because Ricciardi shouldn't have said what he said here is, what he said is probably accurate. Without hearing his comments, I suspect that's what Gottlieb is talking about here.

What's more damning, in my opinion, is that the Reds organization hasn't come back and stuck up for Dunn. I'm amazed that no one from that front office hasn't come back and rebutted those statements. Even if those statements were true, you'd think they'd want to protect his reputation so they can get more for him in a trade, which they should be open to if the above is true.

 

Or have they come out and released a statement and I missed it?

[RynoRules]

The 800 lb Gorilla in the room is that this dumb-*** commentary came from an alleged saber-guy and Beane-disciple. But then again, this is the guy who filled out his lineup wih David Eckstein and Scott "my best years are FAR behind me" Rolen.

 

He's been on the job for 7 years. There's really no excuse for how poor that team's offense still is.

[rocket]

 

What seems to be getting lost because Ricciardi shouldn't have said what he said here is, what he said is probably accurate. Without hearing his comments, I suspect that's what Gottlieb is talking about here.

What's more damning, in my opinion, is that the Reds organization hasn't come back and stuck up for Dunn. I'm amazed that no one from that front office hasn't come back and rebutted those statements. Even if those statements were true, you'd think they'd want to protect his reputation so they can get more for him in a trade, which they should be open to if the above is true.

 

Or have they come out and released a statement and I missed it?

 

Reds manager Dusty Baker read and listened to Riccardi's comments and expressed surprise.

 

"It serves no purpose. That's not like J.P., either," Baker said. "I don't understand the cause or the need for that dialogue."

 

Baker was asked if Ricciardi's comments had any validity.

 

"I ain't in that" Baker said. "All I know is that, if I'm Adam Dunn, they'd have a hard time getting me out, no lie."

 

"He's kind of what you see on the other side of the field. He's a gentle giant," said Baker, who previously managed against Dunn with the Giants and Cubs. "Personally, I'd like to see him mad."

[Jehrico]

 

What's more damning, in my opinion, is that the Reds organization hasn't come back and stuck up for Dunn. I'm amazed that no one from that front office hasn't come back and rebutted those statements. Even if those statements were true, you'd think they'd want to protect his reputation so they can get more for him in a trade, which they should be open to if the above is true.

 

Or have they come out and released a statement and I missed it?

 

Reds manager Dusty Baker read and listened to Riccardi's comments and expressed surprise.

 

"It serves no purpose. That's not like J.P., either," Baker said. "I don't understand the cause or the need for that dialogue."

 

Baker was asked if Ricciardi's comments had any validity.

 

"I ain't in that" Baker said. "All I know is that, if I'm Adam Dunn, they'd have a hard time getting me out, no lie."

 

"He's kind of what you see on the other side of the field. He's a gentle giant," said Baker, who previously managed against Dunn with the Giants and Cubs. "Personally, I'd like to see him mad."

Not exactly the type of retort I expected. I would have liked to have seen something along the lines of "JP Riccardi is simply wrong. End of story. Adam Dunn has more passion for the game than most of his peers. Ask anyone who has played with him, he always strives to give his best" or something like that from someone in the Reds org. Dusty almost seems to be challenging Dunn to get mad and show more passion in response to the criticism that has been leveled at him, which kind of validates what JP was saying.

 

Regardless, I'd still love the guy on my team if he can keep giving the performances that he has been for several years now.

[fromthestretch]

The 800 lb Gorilla in the room is that this dumb-*** commentary came from an alleged saber-guy and Beane-disciple. But then again, this is the guy who filled out his lineup wih David Eckstein and Scott "my best years are FAR behind me" Rolen.

 

He's been on the job for 7 years. There's really no excuse for how poor that team's offense still is.

 

And if I just heard correctly on XM, he just fired Gibbons.

[davearm2]

Even if Dunn had no "passion" for baseball, what does it matter? Does it somehow reduce his production?

 

It was a stupid thing to say all around.

Well this really shifts the focus to the value of intangibles, and whether all .900 OPS hitters are created equal.

 

Many ascribe to the notion that not everything that counts, can be counted. Apparently Ricciardi is one.

What intangible? The only thing I can think of is that his lack of passion would somehow make everyone around him worse, which is an idea that probably doesn't need to be given a second thought.

 

A home run is a home run, a walk is a walk, and a strikeout is a strikeout regardless of the player's enjoyment while doing it.

The value of intangibles like character, attitude, desire, chemistry and so on and so forth has been debated forever. We're not going to put an end that debate in this thread.

 

Regardless of whether they should or shouldn't, obviously the Jays think those things do matter, and their evaluation indicates Dunn is lacking in some of those areas.

[fromthestretch]

The value of intangibles like character, attitude, desire, chemistry and so on and so forth has been debated forever. We're not going to put an end that debate in this thread.

 

Regardless of whether they should or shouldn't, obviously the Jays think those things do matter, and their evaluation indicates Dunn is lacking in some of those areas.

 

You mean like the character shown by their (as of 20 minutes ago ex-)manager when he got in a fist-fight with a starting pitcher a couple years ago? Or the character of a GM who goes on the air and trashes an opposing player?

[Jehrico]

The value of intangibles like character, attitude, desire, chemistry and so on and so forth has been debated forever. We're not going to put an end that debate in this thread.

 

Regardless of whether they should or shouldn't, obviously the Jays think those things do matter, and their evaluation indicates Dunn is lacking in some of those areas.

 

You mean like the character shown by their (as of 20 minutes ago ex-)manager when he got in a fist-fight with a starting pitcher a couple years ago? Or the character of a GM who goes on the air and trashes an opposing player?

Zing!

Another analogy of why JP should be thankful he's still employed.

[Jon]

The value of intangibles like character, attitude, desire, chemistry and so on and so forth has been debated forever. We're not going to put an end that debate in this thread.

 

Regardless of whether they should or shouldn't, obviously the Jays think those things do matter, and their evaluation indicates Dunn is lacking in some of those areas.

But this doesn't have anything to do with those intangibles. Dunn was criticized for his lack of passion for the game. I've never heard anyone suggest that such a characteristic actually hurts what a player does or hurts those around him. Having a lack of passion isn't the same as being a clubhouse cancer or not getting along with anyone else. At most, it would prevent him from being even better. Since Dunn has a long track record in the majors, everyone should know what to expect from him. A lack of passion doesn't change what he actually does on the field. It makes no sense.

[Jehrico]

The value of intangibles like character, attitude, desire, chemistry and so on and so forth has been debated forever. We're not going to put an end that debate in this thread.

 

Regardless of whether they should or shouldn't, obviously the Jays think those things do matter, and their evaluation indicates Dunn is lacking in some of those areas.

But this doesn't have anything to do with those intangibles. Dunn was criticized for his lack of passion for the game. I've never heard anyone suggest that such a characteristic actually hurts what a player does or hurts those around him. Having a lack of passion isn't the same as being a clubhouse cancer or not getting along with anyone else. At most, it would prevent him from being even better. Since Dunn has a long track record in the majors, everyone should know what to expect from him. A lack of passion doesn't change what he actually does on the field. It makes no sense.

We're talking about JP Riccardi...

[TruffleShuffle]

The 800 lb Gorilla in the room is that this dumb-*** commentary came from an alleged saber-guy and Beane-disciple.

 

that's not an 800 lb gorilla. i am very sabermetrically-oriented, and i think ricciardi is a very mediocre general manager. not all SABR guys are going to be bright or have great instincts.

[Garage Party]

This is fun. Usually, the Blue Jays stay in the shadow of the Yankees and Red Sox, and just play out the string year after year up in Canada. Now they're bringing back the 1993 coaching staff and their GM goes on the radio to talk crap about Adam Dunn. The Blue Jays just went from mediocre to fun-bad, and as long as it's not the Cubs, I love fun-bad.

[ConstableRabbit]

I have a feeling JP didn't just say that out of nowhere... he's a GM and he must know some things that we don't.

 

That being said, it was a pretty huge and embarrassing slip-up.

[brinoch]

Dunn's response rocks.

 

I don’t know the clown. I don’t know, and you can use the word ‘clown’ if you like.

I’ve seen it, I haven’t heard it. I really don’t care what one guy thinks, to be honest with you. If I’m a G.M., I don’t know that I’d go out of my way to discredit a player -- if I’m a player. He’s obviously won more than me, I guess. Or hasn’t. I know nothing about him.

 

The players didn’t say anything, it’s just some clown sitting in a front office pushing paper. I don’t play for any other reason than the guys here. I’ve said it all along, it doesn’t bother me what people say or think, especially someone outside of the organization who has no idea of anything that goes on here. He’s not even in our country. This guy’s in another country talking ****.

 

He felt like he needed to say it for some reason, I have no idea why and I don’t care. He could be in this clubhouse right now, I wouldn’t know. I couldn’t tell you his name, what he looks like – he’s got a big mouth, that’s all I know about him.

 

I read it, I just read it. I don’t care. He doesn’t have to use my name, use someone else’s name. I’m not taking up for him, because I don’t care about him. I don’t know who he is. I’m not going to sit here and defend someone who’s going to sit there and say I don’t care about baseball. It pisses me off, to be honest with you. He doesn’t even know me. If he knew me, fine. Say what you want. But this guy doesn’t know anything about me other than what he sees on whatever SportsCenter they have on up there. That’s it.

 

It pisses me off. It does. I just told you it pisses me off when people who have no idea what the **** goes on around here and then say – I don’t give a **** what people say in this clubhouse, I don’t care, besides what’s said in here. I don’t care about the perception people have of me, if anything happens, it looks like I ain’t going to Toronto. I can eliminate one team.

 

I’m not converting my dollars into looneys and twoneys just yet. They’re really good, actually.

 

Link

 

Read between the lines and it's clear Riccardi was onto something.

 

Adam Dunn does not care about baseball. He also hates Canada.

 

That's genius. Especially this part:

 

I don’t care about baseball. It pisses me off, to be honest with you.

 

In fact I love it so much I'm gonna sig it. Thanks for reading between the lines for me!

 

Using that quote fragment is so misleading it's funny.

[davearm2]

The value of intangibles like character, attitude, desire, chemistry and so on and so forth has been debated forever. We're not going to put an end that debate in this thread.

 

Regardless of whether they should or shouldn't, obviously the Jays think those things do matter, and their evaluation indicates Dunn is lacking in some of those areas.

But this doesn't have anything to do with those intangibles. Dunn was criticized for his lack of passion for the game. I've never heard anyone suggest that such a characteristic actually hurts what a player does or hurts those around him. Having a lack of passion isn't the same as being a clubhouse cancer or not getting along with anyone else. At most, it would prevent him from being even better. Since Dunn has a long track record in the majors, everyone should know what to expect from him. A lack of passion doesn't change what he actually does on the field. It makes no sense.

 

You might find the blurb below eye opening.

 

Two of those coaches, with the team in Atlanta, wanted to talk about what McLaren would not. They spoke under the cloak of anonymity, they said, to keep their jobs.

 

“You’ve got players in that clubhouse who should be team leaders – guys like Richie Sexson, Adrian Beltre, Erik Bedard, even Ichiro – who care only about themselves,” one coach said. “When your best players are hitting 50-60 points below their career averages and won’t take extra batting practice, what message does that send?

 

“You had kids at the park six hours before a game to work with (former hitting coach) Jeff Pentland one-on-one in the cage, and you had Beltre, who’d never do it. Pretty soon, the younger guys weren’t doing it, either.”

 

Asked about internal jealousies, one of the Mariners coaches laughed.

 

“You had pitchers complaining about having to throw to (catcher) Kenji Johjima all spring, then saw him get a three-year contract extension in April,” the coach said. “You had guys watch Felix (Hernandez) work his (butt) off in camp and watched Bedard do the minimum – and Bedard was the opening-day starter.”

 

The second coach offered other details.

 

“Arthur Rhodes started sitting on the bench when players were taking extra hitting, extra infield drills, and shouting, 'Where’s Richie? Anyone seen Richie Sexson?’ because Sexson was never there,” he said.

 

“Then Bedard started setting his own pitch counts, and sitting in the clubhouse during games he didn’t start. Mac tried dealing with that – we all did. How do you make the highest-paid players on your team work harder if they decide they’re not going to?”

Would you say it's fair to be concerned that a guy you believe lacks passion for baseball might become the type of minimal-effort, negative influence that these coaches allege Sexson and Beltre and Bedard have become in Seattle?

 

I sure think that's a fair concern.

[nobull]

Dunn is joke and the worst outfielder in baseball. He is an effective hitter and DH in training.

[Clem Fandango]

I don't care if Adam Dunn hates baseball, life, himself, me or my family. If he ever wound up on the Cubs and put up a .900 OPS with 40 HR and 100+ walks and RBI's I'd let him take a crap on my car

[Jon]

Would you say it's fair to be concerned that a guy you believe lacks passion for baseball might become the type of minimal-effort, negative influence that these coaches allege Sexson and Beltre and Bedard have become in Seattle?

 

I sure think that's a fair concern.

Might become? This is Dunn's 8th season in the big leagues. I don't think Ricardi felt the need to rip Dunn for not having a passion for baseball because at some point in the future, the guy who has been in the big leagues for 8 years and on some pretty crappy teams might begin to set a poor example for younger players.

 

If Ricardi thought that was an issue, he probably would've said it. Nowhere did he say that Dunn didn't prepare for games properly or wasn't a good teammate. All he said was that he lacked passion.

[Jehrico]

I don't care if Adam Dunn hates baseball, life, himself, me or my family. If he ever wound up on the Cubs and put up a .900 OPS with 40 HR and 100+ walks and RBI's I'd let him take a crap on my car

If he did that and helped us win the WS, I'd let him take one IN my car.