Baseball History Thread

[The Other One]

And ya, Bobby Murcer...and older OF vs. young batting champion third baseman....hmmmm

 

Madlock was in the wrong place at the wrong time. While he had good years, attendance was down. Sure he could hit, but was he putting people in the seats? Murcer was a throwback. He was Mantle's replacement and while he never lived up to the exploits on the field, he was everything the reporters and fans wanted in the locker room. Hell, he brought his own rocking chair to spin yarns with the reporters while he dressed. He was the epitome of the 50's and 60's idolized ballplayer. The theory was that he was the type of player that could put people in their seats.

 

Year Attendance Record

1970 1,642,705 84-78

1971 1,653,007 83-79

1972 1,299,163 85-70

1973 1,351,705 77-84

1974 1,015,378 66-96 Madlock

1975 1,034,819 75-87 Madlock

1976 1,026,217 75-87 Madlock

1977 1,439,834 81-81 Murcer

1978 1,525,311 79-83 Murcer

1979 1,648,587 80-82

 

Certainly, the Cubs hot start in 1977 put the jump into the attendance as much as anything else. And Dave Kingman in 1978 didn't hurt matters when he came on board. But, we all know Madlock would have only made those teams that much stronger. Had his contract issues came up at the end of 1977 instead of 1976, he would have been in a much stronger position and perhaps would have won out and become an icon on the North side for years to come.

[OleMissCub]

Great post. Very insightful!

[erik316wttn]

And ya, Bobby Murcer...and older OF vs. young batting champion third baseman....hmmmm

 

Madlock was in the wrong place at the wrong time. While he had good years, attendance was down. Sure he could hit, but was he putting people in the seats? Murcer was a throwback. He was Mantle's replacement and while he never lived up to the exploits on the field, he was everything the reporters and fans wanted in the locker room. Hell, he brought his own rocking chair to spin yarns with the reporters while he dressed. He was the epitome of the 50's and 60's idolized ballplayer. The theory was that he was the type of player that could put people in their seats.

 

Year Attendance Record

1970 1,642,705 84-78

1971 1,653,007 83-79

1972 1,299,163 85-70

1973 1,351,705 77-84

1974 1,015,378 66-96 Madlock

1975 1,034,819 75-87 Madlock

1976 1,026,217 75-87 Madlock

1977 1,439,834 81-81 Murcer

1978 1,525,311 79-83 Murcer

1979 1,648,587 80-82

 

Certainly, the Cubs hot start in 1977 put the jump into the attendance as much as anything else. And Dave Kingman in 1978 didn't hurt matters when he came on board. But, we all know Madlock would have only made those teams that much stronger. Had his contract issues came up at the end of 1977 instead of 1976, he would have been in a much stronger position and perhaps would have won out and become an icon on the North side for years to come.

 

Welcome aboard! Always nice to have insightful people here.

[wade]

Saw this thread bumped up today and thought I'd add this link. It's about my great-uncle (by marriage) facing Bob Feller in a pickup game at an island in the Pacific during W.W.II.

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/10/14/an-unlikely-confrontation/

[OleMissCub]

Robin Roberts died today at age 83.

 

One of the most underrated pitchers of all time. If the Cy Young had been given back then, he likely would have won 5.

 

Between 1950-1955, he won 138 games with a 2.93 ERA, 161 CG's and 24 shutouts, along with 14 saves.

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/roberts-1.gif

 

Bill James' take on him:

 

Robin Roberts threw about as hard as Bob Feller or Walter Johnson or Bob Gibson, possibly as hard. Because he didn't strike out huge numbers of batters, a lot of people don't realize this.

 

The Cy Young Award began in 1956. The best pitchers in the National League from 1950-1955, according to the Win Shares system, were:

 

1950 - Robin Roberts

1951 - Sale Maglie

1952 - Robin Roberts

1953 - Robin Roberts

1954 - Robin Roberts

1955 - Robin Roberts

 

The Cy Young Award began, in other words, just as Roberts reign as the best pitcher in baseball was ending. This brings up a question: if the Cy Young Award has tarted a few years earlier than it did, and if there had been an award for each league, would Roberts now be remembered as a legendary pitcher who dominated his era?

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/robin5.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/pitchrobin.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/robin2.jpg

[erik316wttn]

Hooray, the baseball history thread is back!

 

Roberts was indeed very underrated. Wish I could have seen him pitch.

 

A little bit of Perfect Game history for you to digest: *NOTE* This post has been updated to include Dallas Braden's perfect game.

 

Of the 17 perfect games thrown in the modern era (since 1900), the New York Yankees have thrown 3. The Dodgers have thrown 1 (Sandy Koufax's perfect game against the Cubs in 1965) and been on the losing end of 3 (Don Larsen's perfecto in 1956, Tom Browning's in 1988, and Dennis Martinez's in 1991).

 

The longest gap in MLB history between Perfect games? More than 34 years (Charlie Robertson threw one for the White Sox against Detroit on April 30, 1922, and then you have to go until Don Larsen in October of 1956 for the next one.) If you want to extend that streak to regular season only, then you have to go to Jim Bunning's perfect game on June 21, 1964 to extend the streak to 42 years.

 

The shortest gap between perfect games? Depends on if you want to go all-time or just modern era. In 1880, the first 2 perfect games ever thrown were just 5 days apart (June 12 and June 17). Since 1900, the closest perfect games have been 289 days apart (Mark Buerhle on July 23, 2008 and Dallas Braden on May 9, 2010).

 

The only two interleague perfect games: Don Larsen in the 1956 World Series, and David Cone for the Yankees against the Expos on July 18, 1999.

 

Biggest blowout: Surprsingly, the most lopsided scores for perfect games have only been 6-0, on two instances: Jim Bunning in 1964 and David Cone in 1999. 1-0 games have happened four times: Addie Joss vs the White Sox in 1908, Koufax in 1965, Mike Witt on the last day of the 1984 regular season vs Texas, and Tom Browning in 1988.

 

There have been two teams on the losing end of consecutive perfect games (The Dodgers in 1988 and 1991, and the Rays in 2008 and 2009.)

 

The American League has thrown 12 perfect games to the National League's 5.

Edited May 9, 2010 by erik316wttn

[erik316wttn]

I read the article on Roberts from ESPN.com and I had no idea that he gave up the most home runs of any pitcher in MLB history.

[OleMissCub]

I read the article on Roberts from ESPN.com and I had no idea that he gave up the most home runs of any pitcher in MLB history.

 

Probably too detailed to ever find out, but I'd be interested to see how many runs/home runs these all time great pitchers from yesteryear gave up in the 7th inning or later. Heck, even up until the 70's a pitcher would stay in a game till the end unless he was completely terrible. They obviously had the durability to pitch that many innings, but surely they were fatigued by the 7th inning and I'd be interested to see if they gave up a disproportionate amount of runs in those later innings.

[NCCubFan]

Roberts actually finished his career with the Cubs in 1966, signing as a free agent on July 13 after being released by the Astros on July 4. He was clearly past his prime by then; he went 2-3 with a 6.14 ERA and 1.51 WHIP in 11 games (9 starts) with the Cubs. He was released by the Cubs on Oct. 4, 1966 and that was the end of his major league career (although he did pitch in 11 games, all starts, for the Phillies' AA team in 1967).

[erik316wttn]

Hooray, the baseball history thread is back!

 

Roberts was indeed very underrated. Wish I could have seen him pitch.

 

A little bit of Perfect Game history for you to digest:

 

Of the 16 perfect games thrown in the modern era (since 1900), the New York Yankees have thrown 3. The Dodgers have thrown 1 (Sandy Koufax's perfect game against the Cubs in 1965) and been on the losing end of 3 (Don Larsen's perfecto in 1956, Tom Browning's in 1988, and Dennis Martinez's in 1991).

 

The longest gap in MLB history between Perfect games? More than 34 years (Charlie Robertson threw one for the White Sox against Detroit on April 30, 1922, and then you have to go until Don Larsen in October of 1956 for the next one.) If you want to extend that streak to regular season only, then you have to go to Jim Bunning's perfect game on June 21, 1964 to extend the streak to 42 years.

 

The only two interleague perfect games: Don Larsen in the 1956 World Series, and David Cone for the Yankees against the Expos on July 18, 1999.

 

Biggest blowout: Surprsingly, the most lopsided scores for perfect games have only been 6-0, on two instances: Jim Bunning in 1964 and David Cone in 1999. 1-0 games have happened four times: Addie Joss vs the White Sox in 1908, Koufax in 1965, Mike Witt on the last day of the 1984 regular season vs Texas, and Tom Browning in 1988.

 

The American League has thrown 11 perfect games to the National League's 5.

 

Guess I need to update this now, huh?

 

*UPDATE* Updated!!

Edited May 9, 2010 by erik316wttn

[NCCubFan]

Hooray, the baseball history thread is back!

 

Roberts was indeed very underrated. Wish I could have seen him pitch.

 

A little bit of Perfect Game history for you to digest:

 

Of the 16 perfect games thrown in the modern era (since 1900), the New York Yankees have thrown 3. The Dodgers have thrown 1 (Sandy Koufax's perfect game against the Cubs in 1965) and been on the losing end of 3 (Don Larsen's perfecto in 1956, Tom Browning's in 1988, and Dennis Martinez's in 1991).

 

The longest gap in MLB history between Perfect games? More than 34 years (Charlie Robertson threw one for the White Sox against Detroit on April 30, 1922, and then you have to go until Don Larsen in October of 1956 for the next one.) If you want to extend that streak to regular season only, then you have to go to Jim Bunning's perfect game on June 21, 1964 to extend the streak to 42 years.

 

The only two interleague perfect games: Don Larsen in the 1956 World Series, and David Cone for the Yankees against the Expos on July 18, 1999.

 

Biggest blowout: Surprsingly, the most lopsided scores for perfect games have only been 6-0, on two instances: Jim Bunning in 1964 and David Cone in 1999. 1-0 games have happened four times: Addie Joss vs the White Sox in 1908, Koufax in 1965, Mike Witt on the last day of the 1984 regular season vs Texas, and Tom Browning in 1988.

 

The American League has thrown 11 perfect games to the National League's 5.

 

Guess I need to update this now, huh?

You'd better!

[NCCubFan]

75 years ago today (or yesterday, depending on time zone) Babe Ruth, finishing his career with the Boston Braves, hit 3 home runs. They were not only the final HRs of his career, he never even had another hit of any kind. He retired 6 days later.

[erik316wttn]

75 years ago today (or yesterday, depending on time zone) Babe Ruth, finishing his career with the Boston Braves, hit 3 home runs. They were not only the final HRs of his career, he never even had another hit of any kind. He retired 6 days later.

 

I always thought that this added to his legend just a bit. He was obviously done, but had one more "Ruthian" performance, then hung it up.

[erik316wttn]

Dammit, now I have to update the perfect game thread AGAIN

[OleMissCub]

This is an absolutely phenomenal photograph.

 

1907 World Series: Cubs v. Tigers. West Side Grounds, Chicago, Illinois

 

 

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Miscellaneous/190720World20Series-1.jpg

 

[Fred Hornkohl]

This is an absolutely phenomenal photograph.

 

1907 World Series: Cubs v. Tigers. West Side Grounds, Chicago, Illinois

 

 

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Miscellaneous/190720World20Series-1.jpg

 

.... and here we thought that bleachers on the rooftops was something new !!!

[baseballfan50]

That's an amazing photo of that old stadium. I love the old photos like that. It almost takes you back to a simpler time. And it's incredible how little security there was.

 

Some more of the West Side Grounds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Park

 

And the South Side Park (White Sox)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Side_Park

[imb]

This is an absolutely phenomenal photograph.

 

1907 World Series: Cubs v. Tigers. West Side Grounds, Chicago, Illinois

 

 

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Miscellaneous/190720World20Series-1.jpg

 

for people that look at the pic

 

right click>view image

 

you'll be glad you did

[OleMissCub]

And it's incredible how little security there was.

 

?

 

I count at least 17 cops in that shot

[rocket]

jesus how many unobstructed seats are in that stadium?

[OleMissCub]

interesting that it doesn't look full since there are bleacher seats that are empty.

 

also, I can't figure out what that narrow trench-like passageway with all the people crammed in is. It doesn't look like there is game action taking place, so perhaps this shot was during pregame and that group of people in the passageway are people entering the park?

[baseballfan50]

And it's incredible how little security there was.

 

?

 

I count at least 17 cops in that shot

 

I just meant in general. If you watch old videos after World Series games fans just pour out on to the field. You also see shots of fans watching games in the early 20th century and there isn't much in the way of fencing or space between the fans and the field.

 

Here's 1903 for example

http://ideagirlconsulting.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/worldseries1903-640.jpg

 

I realize that was the first World Series, but what the heck is going on here? Do fans in the outfield catch homeruns?

 

That's in Boston by the way. The American League Boston club (Red Sox) against the Pirates of the National League. Boston won 5 games to three.

 

This one (1907) is interesting as well. It's hard to tell if there is a fence around the field or not. There are also rooftop seats.

http://www.ticketcity.com/images/world%20series/1907-world-championship-series.jpg

 

Some more World Series photos here

http://www.ticketcity.com/world-series-tickets/world-series-pictures.html

 

It just seems much more regulated and secure today compared to even 20 or 30 years ago. The early 20th century looks like people just sat where ever. There seemed to be less security as far as who gets in the ballpark and what they bring in.

[erik316wttn]

And it's incredible how little security there was.

 

?

 

I count at least 17 cops in that shot

 

I just meant in general. If you watch old videos after World Series games fans just pour out on to the field. You also see shots of fans watching games in the early 20th century and there isn't much in the way of fencing or space between the fans and the field.

 

Here's 1903 for example

http://ideagirlconsulting.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/worldseries1903-640.jpg

 

I realize that was the first World Series, but what the heck is going on here? Do fans in the outfield catch homeruns?

 

That's in Boston by the way. The American League Boston club (Red Sox) against the Pirates of the National League. Boston won 5 games to three.

 

This one (1907) is interesting as well. It's hard to tell if there is a fence around the field or not. There are also rooftop seats.

http://www.ticketcity.com/images/world%20series/1907-world-championship-series.jpg

 

Some more World Series photos here

http://www.ticketcity.com/world-series-tickets/world-series-pictures.html

 

It just seems much more regulated and secure today compared to even 20 or 30 years ago. The early 20th century looks like people just sat where ever. There seemed to be less security as far as who gets in the ballpark and what they bring in.

 

I believe I've read that those on-field fans would often (but not always) be courteous and part to give an outfielder enough room to catch the ball. However, some interesting situations

occured when there was a ball in the air. For example, a fan would shout "Five bucks if you drop it!" Another would shout "Ten if you catch it!" and so on. There are no reported instances (that I know of) of players taking them up on it, but it must have been tempting for a player making a very low wage in those days.

[imb]

yes, im sure baseball players were tempted to throw games for 5 dollars

[OleMissCub]

yes, im sure baseball players were tempted to throw games for 5 dollars

 

It's not like Erik made that up. I believe he's paraphrasing a story from "Crazy 08". That said, it's highly suspect that any ballplayer would have actually taken up such an impromptu proposition, especially for that little (MLB players averaged $2,500 a year in 1908). The only dollar amount that I know of from back in that era where someone was actually paid to throw a game (other than the Black Sox) was $50, which was paid to a Reds pitcher in 1918.