Tigers trade for Renteria

[NewUserName]

Similar to the A-Rod situation, I think people are too heavily weighting his most recent performance. He's not going to have a .375 BABIP every year, and that career 97 OPS+ and not-so-hot defense is hard to get around. Not that he isn't a decent player at a league average EqA and acceptable defense.

 

When MORP says he's worth exactly what he's owed (assuming the option is exercised) I think you've got a problem. The Tigers gave up 12 years of funny named production for a $200k house with a $200k mortgage (if that).

 

AMEN. One thing that bothers me about this board, the skepticism level is practically zero. If someone puts up a good year, that's it, it's accepted at face value. There are some points others have made that I disagree with.

 

- First of all, Jurrjens and Gorkys absolutely smokes Marshall and EPatt. I can't believe anyone said they were at all comparable. Pretty much every GM but one would take Jurrjens in two seconds over Marshall, that one dissenting GM being Jim Hendry.

 

- This idea that Dave Dombrowski is just the bees' knees because of this. Hey, I'd like to have him as our GM. But I think the Braves are going to walk away from this deal clear winners, like they usually do. I didn't like the Gary Sheffield trade. Look at what the Yankees gave up for Abreu (and Lidle). They gave up squat. Look at what the Tigers gave up Sheffield. A ton, and he's old, injury prone, and look at his OPS, not that great.

 

- Renteria is going to go back to his old .735 OPS self, and then we'll see how smart the Tigers are. I thank the Tigers for removing this temptation from Hendry. And then how much of an offensive upgrade will it be?

 

But all of this misses the main point - the Tigers have the chips to do trades like this, we don't. They're giving away Humberto Sanchez (what that his name? Something like that, I'm in a hurry), Kevin Whelan, Jair Jurrjens because they have Andrew Miller and Rick Porcello. They can give away Gorkys with Curtis Granderson and Cameron Maybin in that outfield. Just like the Braves could trade their overrated prospects for Teixeira and not be sunk. We don't have the chips or the depth.

 

 

This is why I like Dombrowski. He knows how to draft and develop talent. He did it in Montreal and Florida and now has taken the worst system in all of baseball and made it very productive in 5 years. When you have a system that is producing talent, it make every other aspect of your team that much better.

I agree that some of his moves are questionable. Sanchez has a hurt arm though. Maybe development people predicted this would happen, So Drombrowski moved him while he could.

Bottom line is he took a bad team that had a bad system that wasnt producing talent and has made them a good team that is producing talent from their minor league system. He also was a good GM in other places with smaller payrolls. I wish he was the Cubs GM.

[nilodnayr]

what a shame. We could have offered them more than a couple of guys with funny names.

 

wow. simply wow

Gorkys compares to Maybin. We could not have offered anything near that.

 

Don't think he has Maybin's power potential.

 

Gorkys is good, but he doesn't compare to Maybin.

 

And he doesnt compare to Pie either, Gorkys hasnt played above A ball yet. He still has quite a ways to go.

 

Gorkys hits everything on the ground, he'll never be a double digit HR hitter unless he pulls an Alex Rios and does a 180 and starts hitting everything in the air.

 

Hes a really good prospect, don't get me wrong, but hes a project, nowhere near ready. From what the Braves were saying, I thought they wanted more ML ready guys.

[NewUserName]

I talked to my dad the Tigers fan today. He wasnt that excited about this trade. He thought they gave away too much. He thinks that the Tigers are also going to make a move to get a LH power hitting OFer, who wouldnt block Maybin when Maybin is ready. Geoff Jenkins was who he was thinking.

[Tracer Bullet]

This is why I like Dombrowski. He knows how to draft and develop talent. He did it in Montreal and Florida and now has taken the worst system in all of baseball and made it very productive in 5 years. When you have a system that is producing talent, it make every other aspect of your team that much better.

I agree that some of his moves are questionable. Sanchez has a hurt arm though. Maybe development people predicted this would happen, So Drombrowski moved him while he could.

Bottom line is he took a bad team that had a bad system that wasnt producing talent and has made them a good team that is producing talent from their minor league system. He also was a good GM in other places with smaller payrolls. I wish he was the Cubs GM.

 

Exactly - when you draft and develop talent, you can trade some of those prospects away for pieces that are scarce on the market to fill a need. The Tigers are in contend mode and needed to get Guillen to 1B (or get a much better 1B and let Guillen DH). They needed a SS, don't have ML-ready talent at SS and the market didn't have a bunch. So they traded from organizational depth (young SP and young CF) to fill a hole. Sure, in 5 years, these kids might turn out to be great for Atlanta. But they weren't going to play in Detroit in the next 5 years with Grandy and Maybin and all of their young starters. So they're more valuable to Atlanta than they are to Detroit. And the opposite is true for Renteria (move valuable to Detroit than Atlanta).

 

This is just a solid trade by two teams that matched-up pretty well.

 

My problem with JH, is when we trade organizational depth (like 3 young SPs a few years ago), we don't acquire a solid player that fills a need, we acquire Juan "43" Pierre. Renteria may not put up great numbers, but they need solid D and a good OBP from him. If he can do that, this was a good chance to take. It's not like they had a lot of other options.

[BigbadB]

The Tigers traded from a strength to fill a weakness. Not only did they fill a weakness, they filled a weakness from a position that there will likely be more demand than product available.

 

Argue whether we should be skeptical of Renteria's value in 2008 as much as you wish, but if Carlos Guillen isn't capable of playing a quality SS anymore, Renteria is a tremendous upgrade over the likes of Ramon Santiago, Neifi Perez and Omar Infante.

 

The same argument can be made for the Cubs. One of the very few upgrades at SS is now off the market. Not only is there one less SS on the market, the market just got tougher for someone like Tejada.

 

Supply and demand. Detroit struck quickly. Nice job on their part.

[badnews]

I think we can all agree that it's bad for the Cubs that they don't have excess quality trade chips they can deal from and not feel the pain.

 

But I don't care for the fawning. It's just a matter of how things are framed. I've noticed when people cite supply and demand it tends to be in support of a bad deal. And you can say Dombrowski "moved quickly" but what does "moving quickly" usually mean? That you folded faster than Superman on laundry day, that's what it usually means.

 

It's interesting nobody cares if A-Rod can play shortstop anymore but everyone's decided Guillen can't. Guillen's shortstop numbers aren't prohibitively bad. And every time we decide someone can't do something defensively, things get spun on their head. Michael Young can't play shortstop, then he does and he's been a well above average shortstop the last two years. Aramis Ramirez is a bad defensive 3b, what ho, he's the best defender at 3rd this year. Theriot can't play shortstop. Wait, actually he can. So forth.

 

People were impressed the Tigers got Sheffield there. Like Renteria, wow, they got a name. They traded a bundle for him (why not just get Abreu for nothing) and then proceeded to give him a large extension. Why? Because Sheffield is a scary name. A name.

 

Sean Casey had a .746 OPS this year. What was Edgar Renteria's career OPS before this year? .745? So you're replacing Casey with Renteria, as someone above said.

 

Dombrowski would be as well off to replace Inge, then let the spooning begin. Keeping a sub-.700 OPS 3rd baseman because he's a good fielder is preposterous. Pedro Feliz is a better defender than Inge, does anyone on earth like him? David Bell was a good defender too. Let's see what happens there.

 

I think a lot of people just have blinders on when it comes to Detroit. 95% of baseball fans I come across still think Jeremy Bonderman is a great pitcher. Until he pulls his Gil Meche routine, hardly.

[nilodnayr]

I think we can all agree that it's bad for the Cubs that they don't have excess quality trade chips they can deal from and not feel the pain.

 

But I don't care for the fawning. It's just a matter of how things are framed. I've noticed when people cite supply and demand it tends to be in support of a bad deal. And you can say Dombrowski "moved quickly" but what does "moving quickly" usually mean? That you folded faster than Superman on laundry day, that's what it usually means.

 

It's interesting nobody cares if A-Rod can play shortstop anymore but everyone's decided Guillen can't. Guillen's shortstop numbers aren't prohibitively bad. And every time we decide someone can't do something defensively, things get spun on their head. Michael Young can't play shortstop, then he does and he's been a well above average shortstop the last two years. Aramis Ramirez is a bad defensive 3b, what ho, he's the best defender at 3rd this year. Theriot can't play shortstop. Wait, actually he can. So forth.

 

People were impressed the Tigers got Sheffield there. Like Renteria, wow, they got a name. They traded a bundle for him (why not just get Abreu for nothing) and then proceeded to give him a large extension. Why? Because Sheffield is a scary name. A name.

 

Sean Casey had a .746 OPS this year. What was Edgar Renteria's career OPS before this year? .745? So you're replacing Casey with Renteria, as someone above said.

 

Dombrowski would be as well off to replace Inge, then let the spooning begin. Keeping a sub-.700 OPS 3rd baseman because he's a good fielder is preposterous. Pedro Feliz is a better defender than Inge, does anyone on earth like him? David Bell was a good defender too. Let's see what happens there.

 

I think a lot of people just have blinders on when it comes to Detroit. 95% of baseball fans I come across still think Jeremy Bonderman is a great pitcher. Until he pulls his Gil Meche routine, hardly.

 

Couple of points...

 

Evidently this deal was being discussed at the trade deadline. So its not like Hendry signing Soriano last year. These teams have had many conversations regarding this. At the time of the trading deadline the Braves still had hopes (valid or not) of getting in the playoffs. I'm sure they didn't want to trade away one of their best players.

 

The reason Guillen "can't" play SS and Young and ARod can is IMO more due to injuries than ability. Just scrolling through KFFL, every other line on Guillen is sitting out a game because of groin, hamstring, shin, shoulder, knee, so on and so forth. The thought is that SS is too demanding on his body at this stage and he needs to move to 1B to stay in the lineup.

 

I agree, this didn't get them over the hump, they need to improve at 3B and LF to be able to compete.

[CuseCubFan69]

I think we can all agree that it's bad for the Cubs that they don't have excess quality trade chips they can deal from and not feel the pain.

 

But I don't care for the fawning. It's just a matter of how things are framed. I've noticed when people cite supply and demand it tends to be in support of a bad deal. And you can say Dombrowski "moved quickly" but what does "moving quickly" usually mean? That you folded faster than Superman on laundry day, that's what it usually means.

 

It's interesting nobody cares if A-Rod can play shortstop anymore but everyone's decided Guillen can't. Guillen's shortstop numbers aren't prohibitively bad. And every time we decide someone can't do something defensively, things get spun on their head. Michael Young can't play shortstop, then he does and he's been a well above average shortstop the last two years. Aramis Ramirez is a bad defensive 3b, what ho, he's the best defender at 3rd this year. Theriot can't play shortstop. Wait, actually he can. So forth.

 

People were impressed the Tigers got Sheffield there. Like Renteria, wow, they got a name. They traded a bundle for him (why not just get Abreu for nothing) and then proceeded to give him a large extension. Why? Because Sheffield is a scary name. A name.

 

Sean Casey had a .746 OPS this year. What was Edgar Renteria's career OPS before this year? .745? So you're replacing Casey with Renteria, as someone above said.

 

Dombrowski would be as well off to replace Inge, then let the spooning begin. Keeping a sub-.700 OPS 3rd baseman because he's a good fielder is preposterous. Pedro Feliz is a better defender than Inge, does anyone on earth like him? David Bell was a good defender too. Let's see what happens there.

 

I think a lot of people just have blinders on when it comes to Detroit. 95% of baseball fans I come across still think Jeremy Bonderman is a great pitcher. Until he pulls his Gil Meche routine, hardly.

 

Couple of points...

 

Evidently this deal was being discussed at the trade deadline. So its not like Hendry signing Soriano last year. These teams have had many conversations regarding this. At the time of the trading deadline the Braves still had hopes (valid or not) of getting in the playoffs. I'm sure they didn't want to trade away one of their best players.

 

The reason Guillen "can't" play SS and Young and ARod can is IMO more due to injuries than ability. Just scrolling through KFFL, every other line on Guillen is sitting out a game because of groin, hamstring, shin, shoulder, knee, so on and so forth. The thought is that SS is too demanding on his body at this stage and he needs to move to 1B to stay in the lineup.

 

I agree, this didn't get them over the hump, they need to improve at 3B and LF to be able to compete.

 

So if the Tigers get ARod or Cabrera would that help? They seem to be a team that isn't afraid to make a move and I wouldn't be surprised if they made a huge signing or trade this off season.

[wade]

I like Detroit and I'm one of the ones that likes the move. I don't think I'm fawning, but Detroit is a team that's had specific needs the past 5 off-seasons and they have addressed them. Maybe not perfectly, but they have addressed them.

 

When I see the Tigers' moves the past 5 years I see - bringing in a big name to show they are players in the free agent market (Pudge), bring in an impact bat (Maggs) draft almost MLB ready pitchers and pay them ML contracts (Verlander, Miller, and the new guy that was going to N.C.) addressing OBP (Shef), getting a shortstop so they could move Guillen to 1B (Edgar).

 

They have been criticized for nearly every one of these moves, yet they've gone from the worst team in the majors to one of the best in the past 5 years.

 

Maggs, Pudge, Shef, and now Edgar all have some serious negatives and all cost a lot in the way of money and or prospects, but at least I see a team that targets specific problems and tries to fix them instead of what I see in the Cubs sometimes- getting redundant players and overpaying for no names.

 

Anyway, not trying to argue to just argue, but I like the move.

[nilodnayr]

I think we can all agree that it's bad for the Cubs that they don't have excess quality trade chips they can deal from and not feel the pain.

 

But I don't care for the fawning. It's just a matter of how things are framed. I've noticed when people cite supply and demand it tends to be in support of a bad deal. And you can say Dombrowski "moved quickly" but what does "moving quickly" usually mean? That you folded faster than Superman on laundry day, that's what it usually means.

 

It's interesting nobody cares if A-Rod can play shortstop anymore but everyone's decided Guillen can't. Guillen's shortstop numbers aren't prohibitively bad. And every time we decide someone can't do something defensively, things get spun on their head. Michael Young can't play shortstop, then he does and he's been a well above average shortstop the last two years. Aramis Ramirez is a bad defensive 3b, what ho, he's the best defender at 3rd this year. Theriot can't play shortstop. Wait, actually he can. So forth.

 

People were impressed the Tigers got Sheffield there. Like Renteria, wow, they got a name. They traded a bundle for him (why not just get Abreu for nothing) and then proceeded to give him a large extension. Why? Because Sheffield is a scary name. A name.

 

Sean Casey had a .746 OPS this year. What was Edgar Renteria's career OPS before this year? .745? So you're replacing Casey with Renteria, as someone above said.

 

Dombrowski would be as well off to replace Inge, then let the spooning begin. Keeping a sub-.700 OPS 3rd baseman because he's a good fielder is preposterous. Pedro Feliz is a better defender than Inge, does anyone on earth like him? David Bell was a good defender too. Let's see what happens there.

 

I think a lot of people just have blinders on when it comes to Detroit. 95% of baseball fans I come across still think Jeremy Bonderman is a great pitcher. Until he pulls his Gil Meche routine, hardly.

 

Couple of points...

 

Evidently this deal was being discussed at the trade deadline. So its not like Hendry signing Soriano last year. These teams have had many conversations regarding this. At the time of the trading deadline the Braves still had hopes (valid or not) of getting in the playoffs. I'm sure they didn't want to trade away one of their best players.

 

The reason Guillen "can't" play SS and Young and ARod can is IMO more due to injuries than ability. Just scrolling through KFFL, every other line on Guillen is sitting out a game because of groin, hamstring, shin, shoulder, knee, so on and so forth. The thought is that SS is too demanding on his body at this stage and he needs to move to 1B to stay in the lineup.

 

I agree, this didn't get them over the hump, they need to improve at 3B and LF to be able to compete.

 

So if the Tigers get ARod or Cabrera would that help? They seem to be a team that isn't afraid to make a move and I wouldn't be surprised if they made a huge signing or trade this off season.

 

I think it would. They are going to see some regression from Maggs and Polanco. The Renteria move probably won't even make up for all of that. Inge is God awful, so a superstar like ARod or Cabrera would be a gigantic upgrade.

 

However, Detroits problem is not hitting. They are one of the best offensive teams. Their problem is pitching. Curt Schilling would be a great move. He listed them as his #2 team, behind the Indians. They have a lot of young guys on the cusp, but this is a team that needs to win now. Their offense is aging quickly. A Schilling signing should be their #1 priority.

[BigbadB]

I think we can all agree that it's bad for the Cubs that they don't have excess quality trade chips they can deal from and not feel the pain.

 

But I don't care for the fawning. It's just a matter of how things are framed. I've noticed when people cite supply and demand it tends to be in support of a bad deal. And you can say Dombrowski "moved quickly" but what does "moving quickly" usually mean? That you folded faster than Superman on laundry day, that's what it usually means.

 

It's interesting nobody cares if A-Rod can play shortstop anymore but everyone's decided Guillen can't. Guillen's shortstop numbers aren't prohibitively bad. And every time we decide someone can't do something defensively, things get spun on their head. Michael Young can't play shortstop, then he does and he's been a well above average shortstop the last two years. Aramis Ramirez is a bad defensive 3b, what ho, he's the best defender at 3rd this year. Theriot can't play shortstop. Wait, actually he can. So forth.

 

People were impressed the Tigers got Sheffield there. Like Renteria, wow, they got a name. They traded a bundle for him (why not just get Abreu for nothing) and then proceeded to give him a large extension. Why? Because Sheffield is a scary name. A name.

 

Sean Casey had a .746 OPS this year. What was Edgar Renteria's career OPS before this year? .745? So you're replacing Casey with Renteria, as someone above said.

 

Dombrowski would be as well off to replace Inge, then let the spooning begin. Keeping a sub-.700 OPS 3rd baseman because he's a good fielder is preposterous. Pedro Feliz is a better defender than Inge, does anyone on earth like him? David Bell was a good defender too. Let's see what happens there.

 

I think a lot of people just have blinders on when it comes to Detroit. 95% of baseball fans I come across still think Jeremy Bonderman is a great pitcher. Until he pulls his Gil Meche routine, hardly.

 

The last time I checked, the offseason was just getting underway. You can feel free to disagree in the value of Edgar Renteria, but I must once again reiterate that he is a mammoth upgrade to the likes of Ramon Santiago, Neifi Perez and Omar Infante. The Detroit front office is the one saying Guillen can no longer play SS. Injuries are not only costing him playing time, but they are risking even more serious injuries by sending him back out there daily.

 

Detroit needed a shortstop. They went out and got arguably the 3rd best SS available. Are they done shopping? I don't know. Maybe. But, I doubt it.

 

Detroit very well could have sat around and waited for the other 29 teams in the league before starting negotiations for a SS. Instead, they beat the other teams to the punch. It was very well played on their part.

 

Still not sure why the discussion on the merits of Dombrowski or Detroit would make you say something like "that's that problem with this board". Please explain.