Forget Marmol closing

[nilodnayr]

If Z's situation was the same as Marmol's, yes, I'd be against it. Of course, it's not the same.

 

 

It most certainly was in 2002. Pretty much the exact same situation

 

Z never had a year like Marmol did out of the pen this year. I believe they feel comfortable with their 5 starters this year, I can't say the same thing about '02's staff.

 

Zambrano doesn't have the same pure stuff as Marmol and they're different style pitchers.

 

I think Marmol will maximize his effectiveness as a properly used reliever compared to a starter. Wainwright last year was more effective as a reliever than a starter this year, I expect similar declines in Marmol (although, Marmol has better stuff than Wainwright as well) as a starter to the point where the difference between him and Marshall isn't worth the loss of him as a properly used reliever.

 

The whole point is that it then allows you to trade Marshall to upgrade elsewhere (like SS).

 

And using Wainwright, isn't going to help your case, this year hes been awesome. Hes the 14th best pticher in the NL (using VORP).

[UK1679666180]

 

The whole point is that it then allows you to trade Marshall to upgrade elsewhere (like SS).

 

And using Wainwright, isn't going to help your case, this year hes been awesome. Hes the 14th best pticher in the NL (using VORP).

 

Wainwright has a DERA of +3.95, same as Marshall.

 

Look in the drop in numbers between Wainwright as a starter and as a reliever.

 

H/9 +2.4

HR/9 same

BB/9 +.6

K/9 -2.3

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I'm not opposed to dealing Marshall for a SS upgrade, Marmol in the rotation or not.

[UK1679666180]

I'm not opposed to dealing Marshall for a SS upgrade, Marmol in the rotation or not.

 

Depends on what's realistic or not. I don't consider Tejada a very likely possibility at this point given his salary and the players req'd to get him.

[Rob]

If Z's situation was the same as Marmol's, yes, I'd be against it. Of course, it's not the same.

 

 

It most certainly was in 2002. Pretty much the exact same situation

 

Z never had a year like Marmol did out of the pen this year. I believe they feel comfortable with their 5 starters this year, I can't say the same thing about '02's staff.

 

Zambrano doesn't have the same pure stuff as Marmol and they're different style pitchers.

 

I think Marmol will maximize his effectiveness as a properly used reliever compared to a starter. Wainwright last year was more effective as a reliever than a starter this year, I expect similar declines in Marmol (although, Marmol has better stuff than Wainwright as well) as a starter to the point where the difference between him and Marshall isn't worth the loss of him as a properly used reliever.

 

Effectiveness aside, Wainright has been good enough in a far larger number of innings, which allows his overall value to be much, much higher.

 

Nobody thinks that Marmol will post a sub 2 era as a starter... but he only needs to be a bit above league average to be more useful considering the bump in innings.

[UK1679666180]

I know he wouldn't put up numbers near where he is now, but would he put up good enough numbers over Marshall to off-set what is being lost in the pen?

 

They're not going from a replacement level starter to Marmol.

 

I know it's the same thing for the pen, but I don't trust Wood in an expanded role to stay healthy and I don't trust Wuertz and his lack of control/command in an expanded role either.

[Rob]

I know he wouldn't put up numbers near where he is now, but would he put up good enough numbers over Marshall to off-set what is being lost in the pen?

 

They're not going from a replacement level starter to Marmol.

 

I know it's the same thing for the pen, but I don't trust Wood in an expanded role to stay healthy and I don't trust Wuertz and his lack of control/command in an expanded role either.

 

I'd have to assume that moving Marmol to the rotation would free us up to trade Marshall for an upgrade elsewhere. SS and RF seem most likely.

 

Tejada, Marmol (SP), and Wuertz in a setup role, or Theriot, Marshall, and Marmol (RP). Obviously it would cost more than Marshall to get Tejada, but if we aren't giving up too much else, it seems very obvious which option is better for us.

[UK1679666180]

Like I said earlier, I don't consider Tejada a likely poss. as you mentioned Marshall would be one of several pieces to be included and they would either have to trade some salary as well or pay the entire contract, I don't see them having the flexibility to take on another 10+ mil per year on one player.

 

If they can get someone of the caliber of Tejada, I'd be more willing to concede my stance, but I'm skeptical at best of that occuring.

[nilodnayr]

 

The whole point is that it then allows you to trade Marshall to upgrade elsewhere (like SS).

 

And using Wainwright, isn't going to help your case, this year hes been awesome. Hes the 14th best pticher in the NL (using VORP).

 

Wainwright has a DERA of +3.95, same as Marshall.

 

Look in the drop in numbers between Wainwright as a starter and as a reliever.

 

H/9 +2.4

HR/9 same

BB/9 +.6

K/9 -2.3

 

I guess if your point is that Marmol will have better stats as a reliever than as a starter, absolutely I'll agree with you. However, that can be said of the vast majority of pitchers.

 

I believe that it would be most effective to use our best pitchers for the maximum amount of innings (meaning as a starter, not as a reliever) to have the greatest impact on the Cubs. I'd be more than happy to take a 3.95 DERA from a starter making $400K. Too bad the cubs are too dumb to see that.

[UK1679666180]

I'd be more than happy to take a 3.95 DERA from a starter making $400K

.

 

That's what he'd be replacing as well.

[nilodnayr]

Like I said earlier, I don't consider Tejada a likely poss. as you mentioned Marshall would be one of several pieces to be included and they would either have to trade some salary as well or pay the entire contract, I don't see them having the flexibility to take on another 10+ mil per year on one player.

 

If they can get someone of the caliber of Tejada, I'd be more willing to concede my stance, but I'm skeptical at best of that occuring.

 

I'd trade Marshall or Marmol for Renteria. Hes no Tejada, but he'd be quite an upgrade over Theriot and he only costs $6M a year. Even if we don't have room to add payroll, we can find $6M in fat to pawn off.

[UK1679666180]

Would Atl. trade Renteria for Marmol or Marshall? I'm not sure. If I was Atlanta I wouldn't trade him, put Escobar at 2B, I'd shift Johnson to the OF and see if Francouer can handle CF, with the super sub Willie Harris getting a fair amount of ABs in CF as well.

[nilodnayr]

I'd be more than happy to take a 3.95 DERA from a starter making $400K

.

 

That's what he'd be replacing as well.

 

Hence the last line in my post.

[nilodnayr]

Would Atl. trade Renteria for Marmol or Marshall? I'm not sure. If I was Atlanta I wouldn't trade him, put Escobar at 2B, I'd shift Johnson to the OF and see if Francouer can handle CF, with the super sub Willie Harris getting a fair amount of ABs in CF as well.

 

And how are they going to upgrade SP? The market is bone dry this year. Its a lot easier to get an OF, than to get a SP.

[UK1679666180]

I forgot to mention Brandon Jones as well for their OF.

 

But, I don't think playing fantasy baseball with random teams is justification either way. If this debate turns into this "well, ATL needs SP and they have a good SS, it'll work type of debate then I want nothing to do with it. It's more fantasy baseball than anything that can logically be applied to what will happen. If it happens or becomes a rumor, then I'll discuss it but, it ain't worth my time now.

 

I'm more interested in the philisophical side of whether or not Marmol would be effective enough as a starter over who he replaced compared to a more important role in the pen and who is replacement would be.

[Mephistopheles]

 

The whole point is that it then allows you to trade Marshall to upgrade elsewhere (like SS).

 

And using Wainwright, isn't going to help your case, this year hes been awesome. Hes the 14th best pticher in the NL (using VORP).

 

Wainwright has a DERA of +3.95, same as Marshall.

 

Look in the drop in numbers between Wainwright as a starter and as a reliever.

 

H/9 +2.4

HR/9 same

BB/9 +.6

K/9 -2.3

 

So that would mean Marmol's K/9 would be 10.1? That would place him fifth all time behind Randy Johnson, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior and Pedro Martinez.

[UK1679666180]

So that would mean Marmol's K/9 would be 10.1? That would place him fifth all time behind Randy Johnson, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior and Pedro Martinez.

 

 

Don't play that stupid BS with me, that might work with others but not me.

[nilodnayr]

I forgot to mention Brandon Jones as well for their OF.

 

But, I don't think playing fantasy baseball with random teams is justification either way. If this debate turns into this "well, ATL needs SP and they have a good SS, it'll work type of debate then I want nothing to do with it. It's more fantasy baseball than anything that can logically be applied to what will happen. If it happens or becomes a rumor, then I'll discuss it but, it ain't worth my time now.

 

I'm more interested in the philisophical side of whether or not Marmol would be effective enough as a starter over who he replaced compared to a more important role in the pen and who is replacement would be.

 

Thats fine, we can stay true to the thread. If you look at Marmol's minor league #s while starting, combined with the ability hes shown this year to get major leaguers out, and we have our own little mini-Joba Chamberlin. Who, by the way, is penciled into the Yank's rotation for next year.

[Guest]

Would Atl. trade Renteria for Marmol or Marshall? I'm not sure. If I was Atlanta I wouldn't trade him, put Escobar at 2B, I'd shift Johnson to the OF and see if Francouer can handle CF, with the super sub Willie Harris getting a fair amount of ABs in CF as well.

 

I think ATL will do the trade for Marshall.

[Mephistopheles]

So that would mean Marmol's K/9 would be 10.1? That would place him fifth all time behind Randy Johnson, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior and Pedro Martinez.

 

 

Don't play that stupid BS with me, that might work with others but not me.

 

i was joking. all he would need to do is post an era under 4.50 and this would be fine making marshall expendable.

[UK1679666180]

Joba also started most of this year in the minors. He's also a much more polished pitcher than Marmol and the Yankees unlike the Cubs will likely not have 5 SPs at the start of the year.

[nilodnayr]

Joba also started most of this year in the minors. He's also a much more polished pitcher than Marmol and the Yankees unlike the Cubs will likely not have 5 SPs at the start of the year.

 

So because Marmol spent most of the year dominating major leaguers, we should discount him? He did start off the season with 7 starts in AAA posting a 1.02 WHIP, 10.54 K/9 and 2.63 BB/9 if that makes you feel better.

 

And back to the discussion which you didn't want to talk about, the Cubs could upgrade their offensive blackhole at SS by moving Marshall, opening up a spot in the rotation.

[UK1679666180]

So that would mean Marmol's K/9 would be 10.1? That would place him fifth all time behind Randy Johnson, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior and Pedro Martinez.

 

 

Don't play that stupid BS with me, that might work with others but not me.

 

i was joking. all he would need to do is post an era under 4.50 and this would be fine making marshall expendable.

 

If I felt more comfortable about the pen and the Cubs had Estes as the likely #5 going into next year, I'd be pushing for Marmol or Gallagher as the #5.

 

I'd like to see Marshall get the chance to grow into the role of a starter, he has the potential to be a real good #4 with the current 5.

 

I think Marmol out of then pen next year could pop a 13 WS which might there with most 2/3 starters in the NL. I don't want to sacrifice their best reliever for potential nominal improvements over Marshall while hoping a team would improve SS/OF for Marshall.

[nilodnayr]

So that would mean Marmol's K/9 would be 10.1? That would place him fifth all time behind Randy Johnson, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior and Pedro Martinez.

 

 

Don't play that stupid BS with me, that might work with others but not me.

 

i was joking. all he would need to do is post an era under 4.50 and this would be fine making marshall expendable.

 

If I felt more comfortable about the pen and the Cubs had Estes as the likely #5 going into next year, I'd be pushing for Marmol or Gallagher as the #5.

 

I'd like to see Marshall get the chance to grow into the role of a starter, he has the potential to be a real good #4 with the current 5.

 

I think Marmol out of then pen next year could pop a 13 WS which might there with most 2/3 starters in the NL. I don't want to sacrifice their best reliever for potential nominal improvements over Marshall while hoping a team would improve SS/OF for Marshall.

 

I think it boils down to if you prefer Theriot at SS, Marmol/Howry/Dempster in the pen, and Marshall as the 5th over

 

1) Renteria at SS,Wuertz/Howry/Dempster in the pen, Marmol as the 5th or

2) Renteria as SS, Wuertz/Marmol/Howry in the pen, Dempster as the 5th

 

To me, the improvement at SS by far outweighs the possible downgrade in the pen and the rotation.

[UK1679666180]

Joba also started most of this year in the minors. He's also a much more polished pitcher than Marmol and the Yankees unlike the Cubs will likely not have 5 SPs at the start of the year.

 

So because Marmol spent most of the year dominating major leaguers, we should discount him? He did start off the season with 7 starts in AAA posting a 1.02 WHIP, 10.54 K/9 and 2.63 BB/9 if that makes you feel better.

 

And back to the discussion which you didn't want to talk about, the Cubs could upgrade their offensive blackhole at SS by moving Marshall, opening up a spot in the rotation.

 

He was dominating hitters at a position the Cubs would have to replace if they move him to starter. They would have to go outside the organization to get a reliever to try and replace the production of Marmol.

 

I'd feel more comfortable with the rotation/pen together and look to improve the offense via prospects for trade and players like Soto than trading players on an already thin 25 man roster.