Does anyone else think Marmol should be a starter in 2008?

[KingCubsFan]

Why mess with a good thing? Well, I suppose Twins and Angels fans are glad their organizations didn't let that them frighten them.

 

As I've said earlier, I think quality relievers are relatively easy to find if you use your opportunities and resources well, which the Cubs don't always.

 

I can just hear Twins fans back in 2003:

 

"You can't move Santana to the rotation! Strikeout bullpen lefties who can get out lefties and righties are too rare!"

Santana is a pretty bad comparison for this. He was in the bullpen originally so he could hide in the majors after being picked in the Rule V draft. There really wasn't any question that his future was in the rotation.

[seanimal]

Why mess with a good thing? Well, I suppose Twins and Angels fans are glad their organizations didn't let that them frighten them.

 

As I've said earlier, I think quality relievers are relatively easy to find if you use your opportunities and resources well, which the Cubs don't always.

 

I can just hear Twins fans back in 2003:

 

"You can't move Santana to the rotation! Strikeout bullpen lefties who can get out lefties and righties are too rare!"

Santana is a pretty bad comparison for this. He was in the bullpen originally so he could hide in the majors after being picked in the Rule V draft. There really wasn't any question that his future was in the rotation.

 

Previous to this year there was no question that Marmol's future was in the rotation...

 

People tend to overemphasize bullpen "roles". If you're asking me whether we should have Marmol throw 90 innings a season or 200, I gotta go with 200.

 

That being said, wanting him to throw 200 innings and him actually doing it are two very different things. But if he comes out of this season with his arm intact, he should be given a chance if we see an injury derail one of our other starters.

[CubColtPacer]

Why mess with a good thing? Well, I suppose Twins and Angels fans are glad their organizations didn't let that them frighten them.

 

As I've said earlier, I think quality relievers are relatively easy to find if you use your opportunities and resources well, which the Cubs don't always.

 

I can just hear Twins fans back in 2003:

 

"You can't move Santana to the rotation! Strikeout bullpen lefties who can get out lefties and righties are too rare!"

Santana is a pretty bad comparison for this. He was in the bullpen originally so he could hide in the majors after being picked in the Rule V draft. There really wasn't any question that his future was in the rotation.

 

Previous to this year there was no question that Marmol's future was in the rotation...

 

People tend to overemphasize bullpen "roles". If you're asking me whether we should have Marmol throw 90 innings a season or 200, I gotta go with 200.

 

That being said, wanting him to throw 200 innings and him actually doing it are two very different things. But if he comes out of this season with his arm intact, he should be given a chance if we see an injury derail one of our other starters.

 

That's not true at all. People on here were calling for Marmol to eventually be moved to the bullpen. The Cubs organization during the winter said that Marmol was their future closer. There was significant question both last year and in the offseason about which way Marmol's future would go.

[Banghart]

That's not true at all. People on here were calling for Marmol to eventually be moved to the bullpen. The Cubs organization during the winter said that Marmol was their future closer. There was significant question both last year and in the offseason about which way Marmol's future would go.

Not saying that this is Marmol's future, but the Cubs were saying the same thing about Zambrano when he first came up.

 

-Banghart

[NCCubFan]

That's not true at all. People on here were calling for Marmol to eventually be moved to the bullpen. The Cubs organization during the winter said that Marmol was their future closer. There was significant question both last year and in the offseason about which way Marmol's future would go.

Not saying that this is Marmol's future, but the Cubs were saying the same thing about Zambrano when he first came up.

 

-Banghart

I still remember the Zambrano vs. Cruz debate from several years ago about which should be a starter and which should be in the bullpen.

[Rob]

I'd like to at least give him a shot at a starting gig. 200 IP from him would be a lot better than 60-70 per season. It remains to be seen how effective he can be the second and third time through the order, but I think some work in spring training on his changeup could make him a valuable addition to the rotation.

 

But why mess with a good thing? Yes, ultimately, 200 innings of Marmol is better than 60-70, but is there one other man on this staff you'd trust more in the late innings with men on base in a tie game?

 

No, there isn't.

 

But managing scared isn't the right way to manage. Personally, I prefer managing smart. And if Marmol can handle being a starter while still maintaining a high level of effectiveness, we're much better off with him in the rotation than in the bullpen.

[seanimal]

Previous to this year there was no question that Marmol's future was in the rotation...

 

That's not true at all. People on here were calling for Marmol to eventually be moved to the bullpen. The Cubs organization during the winter said that Marmol was their future closer. There was significant question both last year and in the offseason about which way Marmol's future would go.

 

I was speaking to the organization's view, so what people here thought has little relevance. However, I don't remember the organization stating that he was the future closer that early on. The first I had heard it mentioned was early on in the season. That being said, my memory isn't the greatest, so I'll take your word for it.

 

Like Rob said, it remains to be seen what would happen with him vs. hitters the 2nd and 3rd time through, but you gotta think that someone with his level of dominance should be given a shot in the rotation if the situation allows. I'd prefer it to be a true commitment, rather than a half-assed look then a knee-jerk pull at the first sign of trouble.

[KingCubsFan]

Previous to this year there was no question that Marmol's future was in the rotation...

 

That's not true at all. People on here were calling for Marmol to eventually be moved to the bullpen. The Cubs organization during the winter said that Marmol was their future closer. There was significant question both last year and in the offseason about which way Marmol's future would go.

 

I was speaking to the organization's view, so what people here thought has little relevance. However, I don't remember the organization stating that he was the future closer that early on. The first I had heard it mentioned was early on in the season. That being said, my memory isn't the greatest, so I'll take your word for it.

 

Like Rob said, it remains to be seen what would happen with him vs. hitters the 2nd and 3rd time through, but you gotta think that someone with his level of dominance should be given a shot in the rotation if the situation allows. I'd prefer it to be a true commitment, rather than a half-assed look then a knee-jerk pull at the first sign of trouble.

There was always talk of him possibly moving to the bullpen in the future. I think he got a pretty good shot last year at the rotation and, while he may become an effective starter, I'm not sure he could ever display the dominance he has showed as a reliever

[baseball7897]

I highly doubt Marmol would be able to stay healthy if he was used as a starter. His mechanics can be described as "violent". A lot of stress is going on his elbow with the way he lifts that elbow above his shoulder, and with the way he falls off. IMO, Marmol is better off throwing limited pitches than throwing 85-100 each 5th day.

[Sammy Sofa]

I highly doubt Marmol would be able to stay healthy if he was used as a starter. His mechanics can be described as "violent". A lot of stress is going on his elbow with the way he lifts that elbow above his shoulder, and with the way he falls off. IMO, Marmol is better off throwing limited pitches than throwing 85-100 each 5th day.

 

Yeah, I was leaning more towards that besides him only having two pitches. He's got a lot of "violence" going on like the other Carlos, but that Carlos is a freak of nature health-wise.

[AlwaysaCub]

I highly doubt Marmol would be able to stay healthy if he was used as a starter. His mechanics can be described as "violent". A lot of stress is going on his elbow with the way he lifts that elbow above his shoulder, and with the way he falls off. IMO, Marmol is better off throwing limited pitches than throwing 85-100 each 5th day.

 

Yeah, I was leaning more towards that besides him only having two pitches. He's got a lot of "violence" going on like the other Carlos, but that Carlos is a freak of nature health-wise.

 

Z is 6-5, 255 and is as strong as an ox. Z also throws with a (relatively) conventional wind-up, especially when compared to Marmol. Marmol is comparatively a twig, and twigs snap easily. There is absolutely, positively no way that Marmol's elbow would hold up for 100 pitches every 5th day and 220 innings for a season.

[Sammy Sofa]

I highly doubt Marmol would be able to stay healthy if he was used as a starter. His mechanics can be described as "violent". A lot of stress is going on his elbow with the way he lifts that elbow above his shoulder, and with the way he falls off. IMO, Marmol is better off throwing limited pitches than throwing 85-100 each 5th day.

 

Yeah, I was leaning more towards that besides him only having two pitches. He's got a lot of "violence" going on like the other Carlos, but that Carlos is a freak of nature health-wise.

 

Z is 6-5, 255 and is as strong as an ox. Z also throws with a (relatively) conventional wind-up, especially when compared to Marmol. Marmol is comparatively a twig, and twigs snap easily. There is absolutely, positively no way that Marmol's elbow would hold up for 100 pitches every 5th day and 220 innings for a season.

 

Exactly.

[baseball7897]

I highly doubt Marmol would be able to stay healthy if he was used as a starter. His mechanics can be described as "violent". A lot of stress is going on his elbow with the way he lifts that elbow above his shoulder, and with the way he falls off. IMO, Marmol is better off throwing limited pitches than throwing 85-100 each 5th day.

 

Yeah, I was leaning more towards that besides him only having two pitches. He's got a lot of "violence" going on like the other Carlos, but that Carlos is a freak of nature health-wise.

 

Z is 6-5, 255 and is as strong as an ox. Z also throws with a (relatively) conventional wind-up, especially when compared to Marmol. Marmol is comparatively a twig, and twigs snap easily. There is absolutely, positively no way that Marmol's elbow would hold up for 100 pitches every 5th day and 220 innings for a season.

 

That really has nothing to do with pitching. Pitchers come in all shapes and sizes. If you think the reason why he would break down because of his size then thats not correct. Take a look at Juan Cruz, Ervin Santana, and Jack McDowell. Those pitchers could be described as "twigs", but their weight has nothing to do with them suffering an injury.

[inari]

Why name those guys? Take a look at Pedro Martinez. He's the ultimate twig pitcher.

[Careless]

I highly doubt Marmol would be able to stay healthy if he was used as a starter. His mechanics can be described as "violent". A lot of stress is going on his elbow with the way he lifts that elbow above his shoulder, and with the way he falls off. IMO, Marmol is better off throwing limited pitches than throwing 85-100 each 5th day.

 

Yeah, I was leaning more towards that besides him only having two pitches. He's got a lot of "violence" going on like the other Carlos, but that Carlos is a freak of nature health-wise.

 

Z is 6-5, 255 and is as strong as an ox. Z also throws with a (relatively) conventional wind-up, especially when compared to Marmol. Marmol is comparatively a twig, and twigs snap easily. There is absolutely, positively no way that Marmol's elbow would hold up for 100 pitches every 5th day and 220 innings for a season.

 

That really has nothing to do with pitching. Pitchers come in all shapes and sizes. If you think the reason why he would break down because of his size then thats not correct. Take a look at Juan Cruz, Ervin Santana, and Jack McDowell. Those pitchers could be described as "twigs", but their weight has nothing to do with them suffering an injury.

Learning the difference between "anecdote" and "data" would do you a world of good in analyzing baseball and many other things in life.

 

that is to say that we could put marmol out there as a starter and he could be so good that they retire numbers after he quits and all players thereafter are a-z. That wouldn't make it a good decision if there was a tiny chance of him not immediately blowing out his arm.

[abuck1220]

Like "two pitch" Lincecum? "Two pitch" Rich Hill, who, last time I checked, was 2nd in the NL in K/9 for guys who have at least 160 innings, behind only Peavy? Brad Penny is a one pitch pitcher. Jason Schmidt, during his best years, was a two pitch pitcher. Dontrelle Willis was a 2 pitch pitcher during his best years. Most of the time I've seen Bedard pitch in years past (I've actually not seen him this year) it's been two pitches.

 

I don't know where people think that the average major league starter has a Matsuzaka-like repetoire. There's been ample documentation of Brad Penny throwing 95% of his pitches fastballs during games, and a lot of talk about Schmidt only having a fastball-changeup during his best years, or Willis's fastball-slider only repetoire. Anyway, he might have something else up his sleeve, but doesn't need it in the pen. Lincecum does not have a third pitch.

 

So for me, two pitch complaints are cop-outs. If I seem overly annoyed by the two pitch argument, it's because I've had my fill of it with people moaning about Rich Hill. They'd rather have Livan Hernandez and his 5 trash pitches.

 

There's a difference between your two pitches being fastball-change or fastball-curve, and your two pitches being fastball-slider.

 

Exactly. Marmol has the potential to be one of the best closers in the game, why take away from that. Would the Red Sox be a better team with Papelbon being a starter?

 

yeah, i think they would.