win-now mentality may be hurting us

[kente777]

Starting with the hiring of Lou Piniella, it seems the Cubs organization is desparate to win a World Series. Obviously, they need to.

 

However, it seems to me that instead of grooming young players to give them a chance to mature thus giving us a great chance to be competitive a couple years down the road, it seems that we are playing more veterans in order to win the big one right now. (obviously Hendry is feeling the pressure to win). This "veteran-only" mentality was terrible under Baker, and while it has gotten better under Lou (Theriot would never be playing this much under Dusty), we still are favoring the veteran over the young player.

 

How in the heck will Murton ever learn to hit from both sides of the plate if he keeps getting platooned? Playing him everday would also give him the opportunity to grow into more of a power hitter which I believe he has great potential. It's refreshing to see more of Theriot, but Itzuris should never start and only should be used as a late-innings defensive guy.

 

I just think we need to go with a younger team even if it means we have a few growing pains (Theriot, Patterson, Pie, Murton, Guzman). I believe it will pay dividends in the long-term, not to mention saving us $$$ on washed up vets.

 

Ken

[VicCub]

This 'oh my gosh it's been so long since we've won- we need to win right now!' mentality has existed since I was a child in the 70s. I said way back then that we should go young and be patient but it's never happened.

 

I'm still a fairly young man. I wish they'd try that angle once.

[BigbadB]

How in the heck will Murton ever learn to hit from both sides of the plate if he keeps getting platooned?

 

:scratch:

[Derwood]

There aren't a lot of recent WS winners (with the exception of the '03 Marlins) that are full of homegrown players.

[kente777]

There aren't a lot of recent WS winners (with the exception of the '03 Marlins) that are full of homegrown players.

 

Certainly we would keep Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, and Barrett. That's would be a good balance of Vets and Youngsters.

 

I don't think Derosa should be starting but used as a supersub. Put Patterson in there. Jones should be gone so Murton can play everyday.

 

Ken

[Soul]

This 'oh my gosh it's been so long since we've won- we need to win right now!' mentality has existed since I was a child in the 70s. I said way back then that we should go young and be patient but it's never happened.

 

I'm still a fairly young man. I wish they'd try that angle once.

 

No matter how young you are, you still may never witness a Cub World Series appearance, much less a victory.

 

I wouldn't feel comfortable guaranteeing that there is a single person on the planet right now that will witness a Cubs WS.

[kente777]

This 'oh my gosh it's been so long since we've won- we need to win right now!' mentality has existed since I was a child in the 70s. I said way back then that we should go young and be patient but it's never happened.

 

I'm still a fairly young man. I wish they'd try that angle once.

 

No matter how young you are, you still may never witness a Cub World Series appearance, much less a victory.

 

I wouldn't feel comfortable guaranteeing that there is a single person on the planet right now that will witness a Cubs WS.

 

It is very sad to know how close we came in 2003. Heck, I just want to see them in the World Series to kill that damn goat curse. After we went up 3-1 in the NLCS, I had my whole week planned to watch the World Series. I had someone ready to cover my paper route so I wouldn't have to worry about staying up late at night. But, it never came to be.

 

I just want to see the Cubs at the big dance, and I'm not sure our current Veteran mentality is going to get us there.

Edited May 30, 2007 by kente777

[jersey cubs fan]

There aren't a lot of recent WS winners (with the exception of the '03 Marlins) that are full of homegrown players.

 

The late 90's Yankees were stacked with home grown talent. The 114 win 1998 team had Jeter, Bernie and Posada among everyday position players, along with multiple bench players. Then you had Pettite, Irabu and El Duque who came into the bigs via NY's system. Plus, you had Rivera, and a couple bullpen arms. It wasn't until they started going hard after the biggest money free agents that they stopped winning it all.

 

The Braves have been mostly internally developed. I believe the Angels teams were quite home grown as well. No team is ever going to win with 25 home grown talents, but good ones generally develop a significant amount of their players from within. The Cubs have zero everyday players developed from their own system. Coming into the season the closest thing they had to an internally developed everyday position player was Matt Murton, who actually spent more time in Boston's minor league system than the Cubs'. Theriot is the only position player on the roster who was drafted and developed by the Cubs.

 

Obviously they've done a better job of it with the pitchers, with Hill, Marshall, Zambrano, Marmol and Wuertz.

[jersey cubs fan]

There aren't a lot of recent WS winners (with the exception of the '03 Marlins) that are full of homegrown players.

 

Certainly we would keep Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, and Barrett. That's would be a good balance of Vets and Youngsters.

 

Not sure why Barrett is a certain keeper. He's a free agent, and in my opinion, the Cubs got the most out of him they could expect, and should let him go, if not trade him this summer.

[C.C.]

Obviously they've done a better job of it with the pitchers, with Hill, Marshall, Zambrano, Marmol and Wuertz.

 

Then you have Garland, Mitre (Jury's still out), Willis. It's a impressive batch of pitchers...

[NewUserName]

There aren't a lot of recent WS winners (with the exception of the '03 Marlins) that are full of homegrown players.

 

There are also very few that ignore player development. The Core of the Yankees mini-dynasty in the late 90s was homegrown talent.

 

To be a successful team year in and year out you either have to spend like the Yankees, or be committed to developing players like the Braves, A's, Twins, Marlins, Indians. Heck even the Yankees still develop position players better than the Cubs.

[Derwood]

There aren't a lot of recent WS winners (with the exception of the '03 Marlins) that are full of homegrown players.

 

The late 90's Yankees were stacked with home grown talent. The 114 win 1998 team had Jeter, Bernie and Posada among everyday position players, along with multiple bench players. Then you had Pettite, Irabu and El Duque who came into the bigs via NY's system. Plus, you had Rivera, and a couple bullpen arms. It wasn't until they started going hard after the biggest money free agents that they stopped winning it all.

 

The Braves have been mostly internally developed. I believe the Angels teams were quite home grown as well. No team is ever going to win with 25 home grown talents, but good ones generally develop a significant amount of their players from within. The Cubs have zero everyday players developed from their own system. Coming into the season the closest thing they had to an internally developed everyday position player was Matt Murton, who actually spent more time in Boston's minor league system than the Cubs'. Theriot is the only position player on the roster who was drafted and developed by the Cubs.

 

Obviously they've done a better job of it with the pitchers, with Hill, Marshall, Zambrano, Marmol and Wuertz.

 

well the system did a good job of setting up the major league roster with Zambrano, Wood, Prior and Hill, but it's not the scouting departments fault that Baker and co. ruined them.

 

Also, the Cubs used their homegrown players to acquired the core of the offense (Hill for Ramirez, Choi for Lee, etc.)

[Soul]

This 'oh my gosh it's been so long since we've won- we need to win right now!' mentality has existed since I was a child in the 70s. I said way back then that we should go young and be patient but it's never happened.

 

I'm still a fairly young man. I wish they'd try that angle once.

 

No matter how young you are, you still may never witness a Cub World Series appearance, much less a victory.

 

I wouldn't feel comfortable guaranteeing that there is a single person on the planet right now that will witness a Cubs WS.

 

It is very sad to know how close we came in 2003. Heck, I just want to see them in the World Series to kill that damn goat curse. After we went up 3-1 in the NLCS, I had my whole week planned to watch the World Series. I had someone ready to cover my paper route so I wouldn't have to worry about staying up late at night. But, it never came to be.

 

I just want to see the Cubs at the big dance, and I'm not sure our current Veteran mentality is going to get us there.

 

That's all I wanted too.

 

Excuse me, I need to go cry now 8-)

[biittner77]

The old Dynastic vs. Nowacrat debate. Sure brings back memories.

 

Our best hope for a better MLB team is Tim Wilken and his ability to find talent beyond the first round. After the new owner fires Hendry there will be much less pressure to win right now on the new GM. The last time the Cubs had a GM that strip mined the farm system to save his job it took 5 years to recover.

 

If things are as bad now as they were in '99, the Cubs should sell high on Lee, Zambrano and maybe Ramirez depending on what they can get in the other deals.

[Derwood]

The old Dynastic vs. Nowacrat debate. Sure brings back memories.

 

 

i've been trying to remember those terms. i kept thinking it was Dynacrat and something

[jersey cubs fan]

The old Dynastic vs. Nowacrat debate. Sure brings back memories.

 

Our best hope for a better MLB team is Tim Wilken and his ability to find talent beyond the first round. After the new owner fires Hendry there will be much less pressure to win right now on the new GM. The last time the Cubs had a GM that strip mined the farm system to save his job it took 5 years to recover.

 

If things are as bad now as they were in '99, the Cubs should sell high on Lee, Zambrano and maybe Ramirez depending on what they can get in the other deals.

 

The Cubs financial situation will always keep them within 2 years of contending. As bad as Hendry has been, this team is not barren of talent. And given the money they have, they can make moves to get them to the top rather quickly. The key is to stop Hendry from doing anymore damage. And they desperately need a great draft from Wilken this year that can produce a couple guys who will contribute within the next 3-5 years.

[biittner77]

The old Dynastic vs. Nowacrat debate. Sure brings back memories.

 

 

i've been trying to remember those terms. i kept thinking it was Dynacrat and something

 

Dynacrat was the "just win sometime" party created by Jack Everett.

[Soul]

The old Dynastic vs. Nowacrat debate. Sure brings back memories.

 

Our best hope for a better MLB team is Tim Wilken and his ability to find talent beyond the first round. After the new owner fires Hendry there will be much less pressure to win right now on the new GM. The last time the Cubs had a GM that strip mined the farm system to save his job it took 5 years to recover.

 

If things are as bad now as they were in '99, the Cubs should sell high on Lee, Zambrano and maybe Ramirez depending on what they can get in the other deals.

 

The fans would probably freak out if we sold ARam & Lee.

 

But what other choice do we have? They're probably going to rot here on bad teams anyway unless we can get a good infusion of young talent. I don't know how else we would acquire it.

 

The only thing I can see is this: we don't know where this team would be with a good bullpen. A good BP might not be that hard to acquire. We've lost probably 10 games due to bullpen collapses this year. If 7 of those are wins, then we're 2 over and probably not in such an ugly mood.

[CubColtPacer]

The old Dynastic vs. Nowacrat debate. Sure brings back memories.

 

Our best hope for a better MLB team is Tim Wilken and his ability to find talent beyond the first round. After the new owner fires Hendry there will be much less pressure to win right now on the new GM. The last time the Cubs had a GM that strip mined the farm system to save his job it took 5 years to recover.

 

If things are as bad now as they were in '99, the Cubs should sell high on Lee, Zambrano and maybe Ramirez depending on what they can get in the other deals.

 

 

The only thing I can see is this: we don't know where this team would be with a good bullpen. A good BP might not be that hard to acquire. We've lost probably 10 games due to bullpen collapses this year. If 7 of those are wins, then we're 2 over and probably not in such an ugly mood.

 

Remember that you have to subtract the losses away from the total as well in that scenario. If we had won 7 of the 10 games that the bullpen was terrible in (your scenario), the team would be 8 over right now and leading the division by 1 game.

[Backtobanks]

There aren't a lot of recent WS winners (with the exception of the '03 Marlins) that are full of homegrown players.

 

Certainly we would keep Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, and Barrett. That's would be a good balance of Vets and Youngsters.

 

I don't think Derosa should be starting but used as a supersub. Put Patterson in there. Jones should be gone so Murton can play everyday.

 

Ken

 

The real problem is that the NL Central is so bad that the Cubs think they're still in contention. Trading Barrett and Zambrano for the top prospects from some other team would be a start. Obviously, Pie ought to be starting. Of course, the other problem is that going young never offers any guarantees either. After waiting 100 years, most people don't want to wait three or four more years for a possibility they might do better.

[Soul]

The old Dynastic vs. Nowacrat debate. Sure brings back memories.

 

Our best hope for a better MLB team is Tim Wilken and his ability to find talent beyond the first round. After the new owner fires Hendry there will be much less pressure to win right now on the new GM. The last time the Cubs had a GM that strip mined the farm system to save his job it took 5 years to recover.

 

If things are as bad now as they were in '99, the Cubs should sell high on Lee, Zambrano and maybe Ramirez depending on what they can get in the other deals.

 

 

The only thing I can see is this: we don't know where this team would be with a good bullpen. A good BP might not be that hard to acquire. We've lost probably 10 games due to bullpen collapses this year. If 7 of those are wins, then we're 2 over and probably not in such an ugly mood.

 

Remember that you have to subtract the losses away from the total as well in that scenario. If we had won 7 of the 10 games that the bullpen was terrible in (your scenario), the team would be 8 over right now and leading the division by 1 game.

 

You're right, sorry I flaked on that one 8-)

[cubfan1955]

There aren't a lot of recent WS winners (with the exception of the '03 Marlins) that are full of homegrown players.

 

Certainly we would keep Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, and Barrett. That's would be a good balance of Vets and Youngsters.

 

Not sure why Barrett is a certain keeper. He's a free agent, and in my opinion, the Cubs got the most out of him they could expect, and should let him go, if not trade him this summer.

Agree with that. He is horrible defensively and dumber than a box of rocks on the basepaths. I'd like to see him traded and maybe get a prospect for him.

[frostwyrm]

I think the Cubs' situation coming into the offseason was totally begging for a rebuilding year like few I have ever seen. Look at all the factors -- the utter putridity of the 2006 team, the thin and obscenely overpriced FA market, the lack of much immediate help from the farm, and the uncertainty involved with the sale of the team. You could argue that the increased payroll and lameness of NL Central were enough to justify going all out to win in 2007, but the counter-arguments are far more compelling to me. Just looking at all these bloated multi-year contracts handed out by a desperate GM is sickening.

[frostwyrm]

Trading Barrett and Zambrano for the top prospects from some other team would be a start. Obviously, Pie ought to be starting. Of course, the other problem is that going young never offers any guarantees either. After waiting 100 years, most people don't want to wait three or four more years for a possibility they might do better.

 

At this point would you give away a top prospect for a partial-season rental of a slumping Barret or a slumping Z? Who would do such a thing? Even if they were performing a lot closer to expected levels it would still be unreasonable to expect a top prospect for them at this late date. They should have been traded in the offseason or better yet in June 2006. Then we could have gotten top prospects.

[Amazing_Grace]

The real problem is that the NL Central is so bad that the Cubs think they're still in contention.

 

This is correct. This season is likely to be another where the Cubs should look to the future and don't.

 

I can't wait till we trade Gallagher for a middle reliever in July.