Miller will be skipped

[USSoccer]

You can't say "Marquis may have been good in one start, but he'll suck this year" out of one side of your mouth and "Miller had one bad start, so he's guaranteed to suck" out the other.

I don't think anyone is saying that. I'll say it again, it's not just one start. Miller's past shouldn't be ignored.

 

Is his past that bad that he couldn't be counted on for a number 5 starter?

 

He's talking about the completely destroyed shoulder, inability to avoid injury and subsequent loss of 10pmh on his fastball.

 

If he's going to throw in the mid 80's with no movement, he should be in long relief so he can work with whoever on a new way to pitch, because what was apparent on Sunday was he was attempting to pitch as if he still had the velocity to overcome lack of movement and control.

[C.C.]

You can't say "Marquis may have been good in one start, but he'll suck this year" out of one side of your mouth and "Miller had one bad start, so he's guaranteed to suck" out the other.

I don't think anyone is saying that. I'll say it again, it's not just one start. Miller's past shouldn't be ignored.

 

Is his past that bad that he couldn't be counted on for a number 5 starter?

 

He's talking about the completely destroyed shoulder, inability to avoid injury and subsequent loss of 10pmh on his fastball.

 

If he's going to throw in the mid 80's with no movement, he should be in long relief so he can work with whoever on a new way to pitch, because what was apparent on Sunday was he was attempting to pitch as if he still had the velocity to overcome lack of movement and control.

 

It's one start.

[CUBZ99]

 

 

Basing your roster on spring training performance is a stupid way to construct your ballclub.

 

Seriously, how hard is this to understand? It's not high school basketball tryouts. You go with talent. Spring training is for getting in shape for the season, not auditioning for starting roles. I cannot believe how this is a difficult concept for people to grasp.

 

Every player that makes it to ST has some degree of talent. So without relying on how a player performs in a game environment, how do you propose that a team select players to make the ballclub? Do you base it on how fast a pitcher throws? How fast a runner runs? How well a player fields? Past performance? How far a player hits the ball?

 

A player could have all the talent in the world and still be a horrible ballplayer.

Edited April 10, 2007 by CUBZ99

[soapy]

You can't say "Marquis may have been good in one start, but he'll suck this year" out of one side of your mouth and "Miller had one bad start, so he's guaranteed to suck" out the other.

I don't think anyone is saying that. I'll say it again, it's not just one start. Miller's past shouldn't be ignored.

 

Is his past that bad that he couldn't be counted on for a number 5 starter?

 

He's talking about the completely destroyed shoulder, inability to avoid injury and subsequent loss of 10pmh on his fastball.

 

If he's going to throw in the mid 80's with no movement, he should be in long relief so he can work with whoever on a new way to pitch, because what was apparent on Sunday was he was attempting to pitch as if he still had the velocity to overcome lack of movement and control.

 

It's one start.

 

hahaha...i give up.

[USSoccer]

 

 

Basing your roster on spring training performance is a stupid way to construct your ballclub.

 

Seriously, how hard is this to understand? It's not high school basketball tryouts. You go with talent. Spring training is for getting in shape for the season, not auditioning for starting roles. I cannot believe how this is a difficult concept for people to grasp.

 

Every player that makes it to ST has some degree of talent. So without relying on how a player performs in a game environment, how do you propose that a team select players to make the ballclub? Do you base it on how fast a pitcher throws? How fast a runner runs? How well a player fields? Past performance? How far a player hits the ball?

 

A player could have all the talent in the world and still be a horrible ballplayer.

 

Is this serious?

[USSoccer]

You can't say "Marquis may have been good in one start, but he'll suck this year" out of one side of your mouth and "Miller had one bad start, so he's guaranteed to suck" out the other.

I don't think anyone is saying that. I'll say it again, it's not just one start. Miller's past shouldn't be ignored.

 

Is his past that bad that he couldn't be counted on for a number 5 starter?

 

He's talking about the completely destroyed shoulder, inability to avoid injury and subsequent loss of 10pmh on his fastball.

 

If he's going to throw in the mid 80's with no movement, he should be in long relief so he can work with whoever on a new way to pitch, because what was apparent on Sunday was he was attempting to pitch as if he still had the velocity to overcome lack of movement and control.

 

It's one start.

 

Wow. You're right. Wade Miller existed in a vacuum prior to Sunday.

[Magnetic Curses]

miller's terrible. no harm in trying out guzman, he couldn't do much worse.

[papabear58]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

[CUBZ99]

 

 

Basing your roster on spring training performance is a stupid way to construct your ballclub.

 

Seriously, how hard is this to understand? It's not high school basketball tryouts. You go with talent. Spring training is for getting in shape for the season, not auditioning for starting roles. I cannot believe how this is a difficult concept for people to grasp.

 

Every player that makes it to ST has some degree of talent. So without relying on how a player performs in a game environment, how do you propose that a team select players to make the ballclub? Do you base it on how fast a pitcher throws? How fast a runner runs? How well a player fields? Past performance? How far a player hits the ball?

 

A player could have all the talent in the world and still be a horrible ballplayer.

 

Is this serious?

 

I was going to ask you the same thing about your statement, but I figured you wouldn't have taken the time to post it if you weren't.

[C.C.]

You can't say "Marquis may have been good in one start, but he'll suck this year" out of one side of your mouth and "Miller had one bad start, so he's guaranteed to suck" out the other.

I don't think anyone is saying that. I'll say it again, it's not just one start. Miller's past shouldn't be ignored.

 

Is his past that bad that he couldn't be counted on for a number 5 starter?

 

He's talking about the completely destroyed shoulder, inability to avoid injury and subsequent loss of 10pmh on his fastball.

 

If he's going to throw in the mid 80's with no movement, he should be in long relief so he can work with whoever on a new way to pitch, because what was apparent on Sunday was he was attempting to pitch as if he still had the velocity to overcome lack of movement and control.

 

It's one start.

 

Wow. You're right. Wade Miller existed in a vacuum prior to Sunday.

 

Has he not been hurt for the past two years?

[NCCubFan]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

Rookie pitcher in 1986: W 6, L 14, ERA 5.61. Right: A pitcher's rookie season tells all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This pitcher I'm referring to is named Greg Maddux.

[USSoccer]

You can't say "Marquis may have been good in one start, but he'll suck this year" out of one side of your mouth and "Miller had one bad start, so he's guaranteed to suck" out the other.

I don't think anyone is saying that. I'll say it again, it's not just one start. Miller's past shouldn't be ignored.

 

Is his past that bad that he couldn't be counted on for a number 5 starter?

 

He's talking about the completely destroyed shoulder, inability to avoid injury and subsequent loss of 10pmh on his fastball.

 

If he's going to throw in the mid 80's with no movement, he should be in long relief so he can work with whoever on a new way to pitch, because what was apparent on Sunday was he was attempting to pitch as if he still had the velocity to overcome lack of movement and control.

 

It's one start.

 

Wow. You're right. Wade Miller existed in a vacuum prior to Sunday.

 

Has he not been hurt for the past two years?

 

That's the point. His injuries have made him a below average pitcher.

[davearm]

Wade Miller out-pitched him in ST. If Gooz was the better pitcher, he would've taking that number 5 spot.

 

Basing your roster on spring training performance is a stupid way to construct your ballclub.

 

Seriously, how hard is this to understand? It's not high school basketball tryouts. You go with talent. Spring training is for getting in shape for the season, not auditioning for starting roles. I cannot believe how this is a difficult concept for people to grasp.

 

Not entirely true. For the kids like Guzman it's a chance to impress as Marshall did last year. Or Rocky Cherry, Theriot, and Cedeno did this year.

 

That's the kind of mentality that has contributed the the Cubs being a suckfest for 99 years. Relying on the piddling sample size of spring

training to build your roster.

You honestly believe that spring training should not be used to evaluate young players, and players attempting to come back from injury?

 

Their only purpose for being down there is to get in shape, not to figure out who deserves the last couple of bench/bullpen/rotation spots?

 

They should have all of the roster questions answered before anyone even shows up?

 

Even on a team with a new coaching staff led by a manager and hitting coach brought in from outside the organization, with little to no familiarity with the players?

 

Seriously?

 

And what's with the hangup on 18 or 20 spring IP? Between bullpen sessions, batting practice, and game action, the Cubs coaches observed each of these guys throwing literally thousands of pitches over the last 8 weeks. You can figure out a lot from what you see in ST.

[USSoccer]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

Look at his minor league numbers and then get back to me about how he isn't waiting to destroy opposing hitters.

 

And why is it that the pitcher with the wrecked shoulder who needs to relearn how to pitch doesn't have to earn it, but the talented guy does?

[davearm]

Has he not been hurt for the past two years?

 

That's the point. His injuries have made him a below average pitcher.

How do we know that?

 

Based on the 20 spring training IP that you've already told us would be a terrible basis for deciding anything?

[soapy]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

WE'RE NOT MAKING COMPARISONS ON SHORT DATA VOLUMES. Holy cow, how else can it be said.

 

Guzman's minor league performance is probably more reliable than the 58 innings pitched he had last year. (see: Hill, Rich).

[USSoccer]

Has he not been hurt for the past two years?

 

That's the point. His injuries have made him a below average pitcher.

How do we know that?

 

Based on the 20 spring training IP that you've already told us would be a terrible basis for deciding anything?

 

Based on the fact that he wasn't that good last season, showed no velocity in spring, and showed no velocity or movement or command on Sunday.

 

It's not necessarily about the outcomes, which some people are pointing to as the end all be all, but about the process. Wade Miller isn't going to be successful throwing in the mid 80's. Why should the Cubs waste winnable games trying to see if the $1.5m they've spent is going to come to anything?

 

If anything, Miller should be in long relief or in AAA trying to learn how to pitch without being able to throw hard. The idea that Guzman is going to develop sitting on the bullpen bench and getting a couple innings of mop up work is idiotic. You can turn this around and ask me how Miller is going to learn in long relief, but I could care less what happens with Wade Miller. The Cubs have more invested in Guzman, and Guzman has signifigantly more upside and ceiling than Miller.

 

Guzman showed that he has excellent stuff and showed decent command in Arizona. Combined with his minor league numbers, he should have been starting on Sunday, not Wade Miller.

Edited April 10, 2007 by USSoccer

[papabear58]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

Look at his minor league numbers and then get back to me about how he isn't waiting to destroy opposing hitters.

 

And why is it that the pitcher with the wrecked shoulder who needs to relearn how to pitch doesn't have to earn it, but the talented guy does?

 

Ok, let me get this straight, spring training stats against major league hitters don't count, but minor league stats against hitters who aren't major league quality do?

 

Dude, come on, you are far more logical then that I hope.

 

As far as earning it, that's what happened in open four way competition in spring training between Neal Cotts, Mark Prior, Wade Miller, and Angel Guzman. He won the spot and deserves the chance to do his job. Why aren't we talking about Howry who has now blown two games or hitters who are not preforming well, because it's way early in the season and they haven't had enough games to judge. Neither has Miller. Be consistant across the board. Judge everyone early, or no one early. Don't just arbitrarily judge people at different points because you might think they may or may not have "the stuff".

[soapy]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

Look at his minor league numbers and then get back to me about how he isn't waiting to destroy opposing hitters.

 

And why is it that the pitcher with the wrecked shoulder who needs to relearn how to pitch doesn't have to earn it, but the talented guy does?

 

Ok, let me get this straight, spring training stats against major league hitters don't count, but minor league stats against hitters who aren't major league quality do?

 

Dude, come on, you are far more logical then that I hope.

 

As far as earning it, that's what happened in open four way competition in spring training between Neal Cotts, Mark Prior, Wade Miller, and Angel Guzman. He won the spot and deserves the chance to do his job. Why aren't we talking about Howry who has now blown two games or hitters who are not preforming well, because it's way early in the season and they haven't had enough games to judge. Neither has Miller. Be consistant across the board. Judge everyone early, or no one early. Don't just arbitrarily judge people at different points because you might think they may or may not have "the stuff".

I don't see how you're comparing Miller to Howry. Howry has pitched great (or at least well) the last two years, oh, and he hasn't had any kind of major surgery and lost 8 mph off his fastball in the process.

[USSoccer]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

Look at his minor league numbers and then get back to me about how he isn't waiting to destroy opposing hitters.

 

And why is it that the pitcher with the wrecked shoulder who needs to relearn how to pitch doesn't have to earn it, but the talented guy does?

 

Ok, let me get this straight, spring training stats against major league hitters don't count, but minor league stats against hitters who aren't major league quality do?

 

Dude, come on, you are far more logical then that I hope.

 

As far as earning it, that's what happened in open four way competition in spring training between Neal Cotts, Mark Prior, Wade Miller, and Angel Guzman. He won the spot and deserves the chance to do his job. Why aren't we talking about Howry who has now blown two games or hitters who are not preforming well, because it's way early in the season and they haven't had enough games to judge. Neither has Miller. Be consistant across the board. Judge everyone early, or no one early. Don't just arbitrarily judge people at different points because you might think they may or may not have "the stuff".

 

You seriously don't get the concept of sample size, do you? 20 innings in Arizona in 2007 aren't going to tell you anything. You look at a player's body of work.

 

But if you're going to play the small sample size game, look at Miller's 2006. He gave up 12 runs in 21 innings, walked 18 and struck out 20. Those numbers suck.

 

Miller didn't win anything in Arizona. He was given a job by a manager, with possible influence by the GM, based on veteran preference, or the threat of a trade demand, maybe because the GM was afraid of injuries hitting the team again. You're talking up Miller's spring like he was worlds better than Angel. I don't see how that's the case.

Edited April 10, 2007 by USSoccer

[Danny82]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

Look at his minor league numbers and then get back to me about how he isn't waiting to destroy opposing hitters.

 

And why is it that the pitcher with the wrecked shoulder who needs to relearn how to pitch doesn't have to earn it, but the talented guy does?

I've looked, and I don't see anything that shows me how he is going to "destroy" hitters. His K rates in the minors are good, but nothing great. He hasn't really been much more than average since his time in AA in 2003--and even that year was just "good" by AA standards (2.81 ERA, 1.21 whip, almost 9k/9. Even when he had great ERAs in A-ball in 2001 and 2002, his k-rate was only about 7k/9.

 

I don't see anything there, honestly, to signify that he is destined to "destroy" hitters. Especially when these good years happened four years ago at much lower levels.

[papabear58]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

Look at his minor league numbers and then get back to me about how he isn't waiting to destroy opposing hitters.

 

And why is it that the pitcher with the wrecked shoulder who needs to relearn how to pitch doesn't have to earn it, but the talented guy does?

 

Ok, let me get this straight, spring training stats against major league hitters don't count, but minor league stats against hitters who aren't major league quality do?

 

Dude, come on, you are far more logical then that I hope.

 

As far as earning it, that's what happened in open four way competition in spring training between Neal Cotts, Mark Prior, Wade Miller, and Angel Guzman. He won the spot and deserves the chance to do his job. Why aren't we talking about Howry who has now blown two games or hitters who are not preforming well, because it's way early in the season and they haven't had enough games to judge. Neither has Miller. Be consistant across the board. Judge everyone early, or no one early. Don't just arbitrarily judge people at different points because you might think they may or may not have "the stuff".

I don't see how you're comparing Miller to Howry. Howry has pitched great (or at least well) the last two years, oh, and he hasn't had any kind of major surgery and lost 8 mph off his fastball in the process.

 

I'm not comparing Miller to Howry. I'm comparing the rush to judge one guy and the non rush to judge the other. The sample size is too small. I understand you point about surgery and lost velocity, but if he gets out and Guzman doesn't, then he should pitch. That being said, if he's not making outs and Guzman is then Guzman should pitch. The fact is that it's to early to tell as he's had time to work on his pitching since last seasons results.

[C.C.]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

Look at his minor league numbers and then get back to me about how he isn't waiting to destroy opposing hitters.

 

And why is it that the pitcher with the wrecked shoulder who needs to relearn how to pitch doesn't have to earn it, but the talented guy does?

 

Ok, let me get this straight, spring training stats against major league hitters don't count, but minor league stats against hitters who aren't major league quality do?

 

Dude, come on, you are far more logical then that I hope.

 

As far as earning it, that's what happened in open four way competition in spring training between Neal Cotts, Mark Prior, Wade Miller, and Angel Guzman. He won the spot and deserves the chance to do his job. Why aren't we talking about Howry who has now blown two games or hitters who are not preforming well, because it's way early in the season and they haven't had enough games to judge. Neither has Miller. Be consistant across the board. Judge everyone early, or no one early. Don't just arbitrarily judge people at different points because you might think they may or may not have "the stuff".

I don't see how you're comparing Miller to Howry. Howry has pitched great (or at least well) the last two years, oh, and he hasn't had any kind of major surgery and lost 8 mph off his fastball in the process.

 

Doesn't mean he still can't be effective and it doesn't mean he won't regain some of the velocity. Again, let's all relax. If Miller continues to suck and looks done, then I'm sure Prior(?) or Guzman will have their shot at the 5th man.

[USSoccer]

Guzman Career Stats:

 

Career W:0 L:6 ERA:7.41 G:17 GS:10 CG:0 SO:0 S:0 SO:0 IP:58.1 H:72 R:50 ER:48 HR:9 BB:37 K:62

 

So, what about these non-spring training stats make you believe that he is this phenomonal pitcher waiting to destroy oposing hitters at the plate? Hell this year he's pitched two innings and given up two earned runs and his numbers are looking right along those averages (since we're making comparasons on short data volumes anyway).

 

Miller might not be the guy, but Guzman hasn't show that he's it yet either. Make him earn it.

 

Look at his minor league numbers and then get back to me about how he isn't waiting to destroy opposing hitters.

 

And why is it that the pitcher with the wrecked shoulder who needs to relearn how to pitch doesn't have to earn it, but the talented guy does?

 

Ok, let me get this straight, spring training stats against major league hitters don't count, but minor league stats against hitters who aren't major league quality do?

 

Dude, come on, you are far more logical then that I hope.

 

As far as earning it, that's what happened in open four way competition in spring training between Neal Cotts, Mark Prior, Wade Miller, and Angel Guzman. He won the spot and deserves the chance to do his job. Why aren't we talking about Howry who has now blown two games or hitters who are not preforming well, because it's way early in the season and they haven't had enough games to judge. Neither has Miller. Be consistant across the board. Judge everyone early, or no one early. Don't just arbitrarily judge people at different points because you might think they may or may not have "the stuff".

I don't see how you're comparing Miller to Howry. Howry has pitched great (or at least well) the last two years, oh, and he hasn't had any kind of major surgery and lost 8 mph off his fastball in the process.

 

Doesn't mean he still can't be effective and it doesn't mean he won't regain some of the velocity. Again, let's all relax. If Miller continues to suck and looks done, then I'm sure Prior(?) or Guzman will have their shot at the 5th man.

 

And how many games will Miller's performance cost us in the meantime? One more is too many.

[Outshined_One]

I feel like we're back to the days of Shawn Estes versus Juan Cruz and Glendon Rusch versus Rich Hill.

 

Joy.