Great article on Griffey and Bonds

[santoforhall]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/070222

[fromthestretch]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/070222

 

I hate articles like this because these writers never show this kind of disdain for Matt Lawton, Ryan Franklin, Rafael Betancourt, Felix Heredia, Alex Sanchez, etc., and those are the guys that actually got caught using. Even Sheffield, who was implicated along with Bonds in the whole BALCO thing, doesn't get all this attention. People write stuff like this about Bonds for two primary reasons:

 

1. He's put up incredible numbers

2. He's been a jerk to the media for a bulk of his career

 

I'm not so sure that reason #1 is as much of a factor as reason #2. Let's face it, the guys that have been suspended for steroid use provide decent evidence that using steroids doesn't necessarily make you a great ballplayer. It would be one thing if anyone was reporting something new about Bonds and steroid use, but instead we get the same old "Bonds cheated" stuff over and over and over again.

[santoforhall]

I'm not saying that the other "juiced" players should be ignored. But if you were going to compare and contrast two "like" players, one who used steroids and one who didn't and the outcome of their careers, you couldn't pick two players to compare better. If you were to go back 10 years and bet on the one player to break Aaron's record, 9 out of 10 bets would have been placed on Jr. In the end, Bonds will have all the record numbers, but if I had to pick either player in their primes without the "juice", I'd take Griffey everytime. It's speculation of course, but take away the HGH, Bonds would have broke down just like Griffey, and vice versa, had Griffey been on the Juice, there's a could chance he would have already broke Aaron's numbers. I'm glad it's pointed out in this article, and in the end, even though Griff won't have the numbers Bonds has, he'll have a clear conscious.

[Abe Frohman]

Trust me, when Matt Lawton starts threatening to leave his mark on the game in a way that is impure - he will be under the spotlight like Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Sammy Sosa are.

 

This is no different than a normal kid competing in the Special Olympics. Many of today's superstars are under the spotlight because they are setting the records by using dishonorable methods. Keep the game clean and pure. To hell with those who tarnish it.

 

Including the owners and Office of MLB who let this happen to make money.

 

Greed is ruining the game. The National Pastime. No one is bigger than the game.

[fromthestretch]

I'm not saying that the other "juiced" players should be ignored. But if you were going to compare and contrast two "like" players, one who used steroids and one who didn't and the outcome of their careers, you couldn't pick two players to compare better. If you were to go back 10 years and bet on the one player to break Aaron's record, 9 out of 10 bets would have been placed on Jr. In the end, Bonds will have all the record numbers, but if I had to pick either player in their primes without the "juice", I'd take Griffey everytime. It's speculation of course, but take away the HGH, Bonds would have broke down just like Griffey, and vice versa, had Griffey been on the Juice, there's a could chance he would have already broke Aaron's numbers. I'm glad it's pointed out in this article, and in the end, even though Griff won't have the numbers Bonds has, he'll have a clear conscious.

 

I'd take Bonds everyday and twice on Sundays. If you believe he started juicing after '98, which is the widespread theory, Bonds was still better than Griffey before that. Bonds had seven seasons with an OPS of 1.000 or better through 1998, which spanned the first 13 years of his career. Griffey has had four such seasons in his entire career. Bonds was also a much bigger threat on the bases.

 

I'm not trying to discount what Griffey accomplished, but Bonds was better.

[cheapseats]

Until Jeff Pearlman goes back in time and tests Griffey's urine, I don't know how he can unilaterally proclaim that Jr. was/is "clean."

 

I personally don't find articles like this one interesting or appealing, but my guess is that fans of Dick Ebersol-type sports coverage do.

[tkenm356]

that plus that whole Griffey/Bonds dinner where Bonds said he was going to take hard-core stuff was never actually proven, it was just here-say by the reporters who accused Bonds of cheating, was it not? And even Griffey said he didn't recall the dinner.

 

That being said, I still think Bonds cheated, and I agree that the media attention he gets is bunk, and the ones who actually WERE caught cheating deserve more blame than Bonds.

[crazycooter]

[snip] Let's face it, the guys that have been suspended for steroid use provide decent evidence that using steroids doesn't necessarily make you a great ballplayer. [snip]

I think you hit on what ticks me off about Bonds, though I realize you were trying to point out undue media disdain. You are correct that using steroids doesn't necessarily make one a great ballplayer. However, I firmly believe that the juice can make a player better for longer than he would have been without it.

 

As such, I think steroids can take a guy who is somewhere among the 10 best players of his era and turn him into one of the 10 best players of all time. Of course, that's JMO.

 

As to media disdain for Bonds: it sells. The sports media doesn't talk about Lawton, et al. because consumers don't care about those guys. They bash Bonds because that's what generates the most response right now.

[fromthestretch]

[snip] Let's face it, the guys that have been suspended for steroid use provide decent evidence that using steroids doesn't necessarily make you a great ballplayer. [snip]

I think you hit on what ticks me off about Bonds, though I realize you were trying to point out undue media disdain. You are correct that using steroids doesn't necessarily make one a great ballplayer. However, I firmly believe that the juice can make a player better for longer than he would have been without it.

 

As such, I think steroids can take a guy who is somewhere among the 10 best players of his era and turn him into one of the 10 best players of all time. Of course, that's JMO.

 

As to media disdain for Bonds: it sells. The sports media doesn't talk about Lawton, et al. because consumers don't care about those guys. They bash Bonds because that's what generates the most response right now.

 

Yes, stories about Bonds sell because consumers don't care about the other guys. But I'd like to think the media could make more of an effort to get people to care about the other guys, helping them realize that the steroid problem runs deeper than Barry Bonds. I think it's a combination of lazy journalism and writing what sells. I can somewhat understand not writing about a guy like Palmeiro, since he's not playing anymore. But how about Sheffield? He's probably got another 2-3 years in him. If you looked at his numbers and took them at face value, the guy could be considered a Hall of Famer. Why isn't that a bigger story than it is? Hell, the whole Giambi thing seems like it was all swept under the rug compared to the Bonds stories.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it's not dubbed the "steroid era" simply because of a handful of power hitters. It's called that because a lot of people were using them, and based on the number of people suspended at the major and minor league levels, more than half were pitchers.

[crazycooter]

[snip] Let's face it, the guys that have been suspended for steroid use provide decent evidence that using steroids doesn't necessarily make you a great ballplayer. [snip]

I think you hit on what ticks me off about Bonds, though I realize you were trying to point out undue media disdain. You are correct that using steroids doesn't necessarily make one a great ballplayer. However, I firmly believe that the juice can make a player better for longer than he would have been without it.

 

As such, I think steroids can take a guy who is somewhere among the 10 best players of his era and turn him into one of the 10 best players of all time. Of course, that's JMO.

 

As to media disdain for Bonds: it sells. The sports media doesn't talk about Lawton, et al. because consumers don't care about those guys. They bash Bonds because that's what generates the most response right now.

 

Yes, stories about Bonds sell because consumers don't care about the other guys. But I'd like to think the media could make more of an effort to get people to care about the other guys, helping them realize that the steroid problem runs deeper than Barry Bonds. I think it's a combination of lazy journalism and writing what sells. I can somewhat understand not writing about a guy like Palmeiro, since he's not playing anymore. But how about Sheffield? He's probably got another 2-3 years in him. If you looked at his numbers and took them at face value, the guy could be considered a Hall of Famer. Why isn't that a bigger story than it is? Hell, the whole Giambi thing seems like it was all swept under the rug compared to the Bonds stories.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it's not dubbed the "steroid era" simply because of a handful of power hitters. It's called that because a lot of people were using them, and based on the number of people suspended at the major and minor league levels, more than half were pitchers.

I agree with all of that. Its as if the sports media would like for us to believe that punishing Bonds = erasing all the problems from the steroid era. IMO, nothing could be further from the truth.

 

It just ticks me off that Bonds has elevated himself to g.o.a.t. level (statistically) by juicing. The difference between me and the media is that I don't excuse the other guys that did the same thing as Bonds.

[rocket]

why should we assume that griffey was clean?

 

if steroids are really as big a deal as the media makes it out to be, shouldn't we assume anyone with good stats used steroids or other performance enhancing drugs? or just the ones who threatened records?

[Guest]

I'd take Bonds everyday and twice on Sundays. If you believe he started juicing after '98, which is the widespread theory, Bonds was still better than Griffey before that. Bonds had seven seasons with an OPS of 1.000 or better through 1998, which spanned the first 13 years of his career. Griffey has had four such seasons in his entire career. Bonds was also a much bigger threat on the bases.

 

I'm not trying to discount what Griffey accomplished, but Bonds was better.

 

No offense, while Bonds was a great player before he alledgely "juiced up", I would take Junior over Bonds everyday of the week, and thrice on Sunday. My biggest problem with Bonds, if they guy had speed (500+ SB, people forget about this stat, because of his "power") why did he settle for LF? Junior---in his prime---may have been one of the greatest CFers to play the game. I mean, Junior did things in CF, that Andruw Jones, but people don't remember that, because of Junior's injuries. Not to mention, Junior never played the game in the guise of jealousy (let's face Bonds was tremendously jealous of both Sosa and McGwire, and prolly a few others), and IMO, Junior was the premier baseball player (before Jeter/Eckstein) in the majors at the time.

 

So while you may take Bonds, and his numbers are better (alledgely), I still take Junior, because I feel Junior was a better all-around player, and and even tho it isn't a stats, but being clear of consciencous during a time of turmoil in the sport, wins point with me.

 

Bonds is a fraud, and time will prove that. His jealousy of other top players is beyond legendary. And it's a SHAME he is approaching a time honor record, and I hope Selig does NOT show up to Bonds games as he is nearing the record.

[cheapseats]

I'd take Bonds everyday and twice on Sundays. If you believe he started juicing after '98, which is the widespread theory, Bonds was still better than Griffey before that. Bonds had seven seasons with an OPS of 1.000 or better through 1998, which spanned the first 13 years of his career. Griffey has had four such seasons in his entire career. Bonds was also a much bigger threat on the bases.

 

I'm not trying to discount what Griffey accomplished, but Bonds was better.

 

No offense, while Bonds was a great player before he alledgely "juiced up", I would take Junior over Bonds everyday of the week, and thrice on Sunday. My biggest problem with Bonds, if they guy had speed (500+ SB, people forget about this stat, because of his "power") why did he settle for LF?

 

While Griffey had a great defensive reputation, Bonds was actually the better defensive player.

 

By FRAA, Bonds played a better CF in 1986 than Griffey ever did in any year of his career. Statheads and scouts tend to agree that Griffey's defense was overrated. Now, Griffey continues to play CF even though doing so hurts his team. That's selfish.

 

Bonds, on the other hand, moved to LF when the very good defensive Andy Van Slyke took over CF.

 

By FRAA, Bonds has been more than 150 runs better than Griffey on defense alone, so it's pretty tough to make the argument that Griffey was a better all-around player.

[crazycooter]

why should we assume that griffey was clean?

 

if steroids are really as big a deal as the media makes it out to be, shouldn't we assume anyone with good stats used steroids or other performance enhancing drugs? or just the ones who threatened records?

We assume Griffey was clean because he never showed a single one of the hallmark signs for steroid use -- extreme muscle increase, bigger head, acne , etc. Further, most "baseball people" tend to agree that Griffey has a textbook perfect swing for hitting HRs, meaning that he didn't rely on sheer muscle to hit the ball. Griffey's uses flexibility and quick reflexes to generate batspeed, not his triceps.

 

One last thing, Griffey was injured all the time. Guys on the juice don't spend much time on the DL with injuries. Part of what steroids do is cause your body to heal at an extremely fast pace (keep in mind that your body healing itself after a workout is what actually builds muscle).

 

Griffey just never fit the mold of a steroid user.

[rocket]

why should we assume that griffey was clean?

 

if steroids are really as big a deal as the media makes it out to be, shouldn't we assume anyone with good stats used steroids or other performance enhancing drugs? or just the ones who threatened records?

We assume Griffey was clean because he never showed a single one of the hallmark signs for steroid use -- extreme muscle increase, bigger head, acne , etc. Further, most "baseball people" tend to agree that Griffey has a textbook perfect swing for hitting HRs, meaning that he didn't rely on sheer muscle to hit the ball. Griffey's uses flexibility and quick reflexes to generate batspeed, not his triceps.

 

One last thing, Griffey was injured all the time. Guys on the juice don't spend much time on the DL with injuries. Part of what steroids do is cause your body to heal at an extremely fast pace (keep in mind that your body healing itself after a workout is what actually builds muscle).

 

Griffey just never fit the mold of a steroid user.

 

i never saw any huge size difference in alex sanchez or rafael palmeiro.

[cheapseats]

why should we assume that griffey was clean?

 

if steroids are really as big a deal as the media makes it out to be, shouldn't we assume anyone with good stats used steroids or other performance enhancing drugs? or just the ones who threatened records?

We assume Griffey was clean because he never showed a single one of the hallmark signs for steroid use -- extreme muscle increase, bigger head, acne , etc. Further, most "baseball people" tend to agree that Griffey has a textbook perfect swing for hitting HRs, meaning that he didn't rely on sheer muscle to hit the ball. Griffey's uses flexibility and quick reflexes to generate batspeed, not his triceps.

 

One last thing, Griffey was injured all the time. Guys on the juice don't spend much time on the DL with injuries. Part of what steroids do is cause your body to heal at an extremely fast pace (keep in mind that your body healing itself after a workout is what actually builds muscle).

 

Griffey just never fit the mold of a steroid user.

 

i never saw any huge size difference in alex sanchez or rafael palmeiro.

 

Griffey is clean. He's just too nice to use steroids.

[CuseCubFan69]

I still blame MLB for ignoring this issue too long in the first place. If they took some action right in the very beginning we wouldn't have been wondering who took what and when. Bonds and others saw a loophole and took it.

[crazycooter]

why should we assume that griffey was clean?

 

if steroids are really as big a deal as the media makes it out to be, shouldn't we assume anyone with good stats used steroids or other performance enhancing drugs? or just the ones who threatened records?

We assume Griffey was clean because he never showed a single one of the hallmark signs for steroid use -- extreme muscle increase, bigger head, acne , etc. Further, most "baseball people" tend to agree that Griffey has a textbook perfect swing for hitting HRs, meaning that he didn't rely on sheer muscle to hit the ball. Griffey's uses flexibility and quick reflexes to generate batspeed, not his triceps.

 

One last thing, Griffey was injured all the time. Guys on the juice don't spend much time on the DL with injuries. Part of what steroids do is cause your body to heal at an extremely fast pace (keep in mind that your body healing itself after a workout is what actually builds muscle).

 

Griffey just never fit the mold of a steroid user.

 

i never saw any huge size difference in alex sanchez or rafael palmeiro.

 

Sure, some guys don't show that many outward signs, but how long were they using before they were caught? Sanchez wasn't around long enough for anybody to know and, IIRC, the Palmeiro incident happened the year before it came out. Probably not enough time to make a huge physical difference in either case. Griffey was hitting HRs at a record pace from almost the minute he set foot in the majors as a skinny kid. If you wanna believe that he was juicing then, fine. It is very hard to believe, to put it mildly, that a guy could have been juicing for 17 years with no unnatural change in his appearance.

[fromthestretch]

why should we assume that griffey was clean?

 

if steroids are really as big a deal as the media makes it out to be, shouldn't we assume anyone with good stats used steroids or other performance enhancing drugs? or just the ones who threatened records?

We assume Griffey was clean because he never showed a single one of the hallmark signs for steroid use -- extreme muscle increase, bigger head, acne , etc. Further, most "baseball people" tend to agree that Griffey has a textbook perfect swing for hitting HRs, meaning that he didn't rely on sheer muscle to hit the ball. Griffey's uses flexibility and quick reflexes to generate batspeed, not his triceps.

 

One last thing, Griffey was injured all the time. Guys on the juice don't spend much time on the DL with injuries. Part of what steroids do is cause your body to heal at an extremely fast pace (keep in mind that your body healing itself after a workout is what actually builds muscle).

 

Griffey just never fit the mold of a steroid user.

 

i never saw any huge size difference in alex sanchez or rafael palmeiro.

 

Sure, some guys don't show that many outward signs, but how long were they using before they were caught? Sanchez wasn't around long enough for anybody to know and, IIRC, the Palmeiro incident happened the year before it came out. Probably not enough time to make a huge physical difference in either case. Griffey was hitting HRs at a record pace from almost the minute he set foot in the majors as a skinny kid. If you wanna believe that he was juicing then, fine. It is very hard to believe, to put it mildly, that a guy could have been juicing for 17 years with no unnatural change in his appearance.

 

It's not really all that hard to believe. If you're using in moderation, you can build strength without adding too much bulk. A lot of the guys caught at the major and minor league level have been pitchers, some of whom aren't all that bulky. A lot depends on how you're using and how you're working out.

[fromthestretch]

I'd take Bonds everyday and twice on Sundays. If you believe he started juicing after '98, which is the widespread theory, Bonds was still better than Griffey before that. Bonds had seven seasons with an OPS of 1.000 or better through 1998, which spanned the first 13 years of his career. Griffey has had four such seasons in his entire career. Bonds was also a much bigger threat on the bases.

 

I'm not trying to discount what Griffey accomplished, but Bonds was better.

 

No offense, while Bonds was a great player before he alledgely "juiced up", I would take Junior over Bonds everyday of the week, and thrice on Sunday. My biggest problem with Bonds, if they guy had speed (500+ SB, people forget about this stat, because of his "power") why did he settle for LF? Junior---in his prime---may have been one of the greatest CFers to play the game. I mean, Junior did things in CF, that Andruw Jones, but people don't remember that, because of Junior's injuries. Not to mention, Junior never played the game in the guise of jealousy (let's face Bonds was tremendously jealous of both Sosa and McGwire, and prolly a few others), and IMO, Junior was the premier baseball player (before Jeter/Eckstein) in the majors at the time.

 

So while you may take Bonds, and his numbers are better (alledgely), I still take Junior, because I feel Junior was a better all-around player, and and even tho it isn't a stats, but being clear of consciencous during a time of turmoil in the sport, wins point with me.

 

Bonds is a fraud, and time will prove that. His jealousy of other top players is beyond legendary. And it's a SHAME he is approaching a time honor record, and I hope Selig does NOT show up to Bonds games as he is nearing the record.

 

Considering Bonds' defensive abilities through '98, which is the time period I'm referring to, Bonds was the better all-around player. Hit for better OPS, stole more bases and at a higher success rate, and played exceptional defense. And again, a lot of this is going along with the theory that he didn't start using until after '98, so the clear conscience thing is bogus. Who cares about his jealousy, especially when you have no idea what was ever going through his or Griffey's heads?

[crazycooter]

why should we assume that griffey was clean?

 

if steroids are really as big a deal as the media makes it out to be, shouldn't we assume anyone with good stats used steroids or other performance enhancing drugs? or just the ones who threatened records?

We assume Griffey was clean because he never showed a single one of the hallmark signs for steroid use -- extreme muscle increase, bigger head, acne , etc. Further, most "baseball people" tend to agree that Griffey has a textbook perfect swing for hitting HRs, meaning that he didn't rely on sheer muscle to hit the ball. Griffey's uses flexibility and quick reflexes to generate batspeed, not his triceps.

 

One last thing, Griffey was injured all the time. Guys on the juice don't spend much time on the DL with injuries. Part of what steroids do is cause your body to heal at an extremely fast pace (keep in mind that your body healing itself after a workout is what actually builds muscle).

 

Griffey just never fit the mold of a steroid user.

 

i never saw any huge size difference in alex sanchez or rafael palmeiro.

 

Sure, some guys don't show that many outward signs, but how long were they using before they were caught? Sanchez wasn't around long enough for anybody to know and, IIRC, the Palmeiro incident happened the year before it came out. Probably not enough time to make a huge physical difference in either case. Griffey was hitting HRs at a record pace from almost the minute he set foot in the majors as a skinny kid. If you wanna believe that he was juicing then, fine. It is very hard to believe, to put it mildly, that a guy could have been juicing for 17 years with no unnatural change in his appearance.

 

It's not really all that hard to believe. If you're using in moderation, you can build strength without adding too much bulk. A lot of the guys caught at the major and minor league level have been pitchers, some of whom aren't all that bulky. A lot depends on how you're using and how you're working out.

I guess my point was that a lot of those guys haven't been in the majors for 17 years. Plus, Griffey has seen a drop in production over the last seven years. Sort of the opposite of Bonds.

 

I'm not saying Griffey never used steroids or that I would be shocked to find out that he did. I wouldn't be shocked to learn that any player over the last 15 years used steroids. I am just saying that Griffey appears to be one of the least likely guys to have used over that time period when you look at all the information that we have -- that's why lots of people assume Griffey was clean. Some people want to say Griffey juiced because he was a power hitter during the steroid era. It's becoming a witch hunt.

[cheapseats]

It's becoming a witch hunt.

 

It already is a witch hunt.