The Bears Offseason Thread

[Magnetic Curses]

Fair market value is based on what other coaches have received with extensions.

 

No it isn't. Fair market value is based on what the market is willing to give you. If you don't hit the market, there's no judging of what that market is. Coaches hit free agency all the time. College coaches are virtual free agents at all times, as are most coordinators. Then you have your steady supply of former head coaches not under contract.

 

Yes, it is-and Lovie would have been paid by a team. Just as we know what Z's approximate value by looking at similar players even though he has not hit the market yet, so we can know Lovie's market value by looking at what similar successful coaches have received.

 

simply looking at and citing what other coaches have gotten is not what fair market value means, though. we have no idea what the market would have been for lovie, maybe mike holmgren money, who knows?

 

lovie may have gotten his money but he would have had to wait to receive "fair market value".

 

this point has been driven home lately by chicago radio personalities, so if you want to debate "fair market value" with someone, call boers and bernsy today at the score between 2 and 6, dan bernsetin will be more than willing to share with you what the term means.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Stannis

[RynoRules]

Glad we can stop listening to the press whine and cry about Lovie and "his money."

 

This deal was a foregone conclusion from the beginning.

 

I dunno if I agree with that given how stupidly the McCaskeys have conducted themselves in the recent past (does any major sports city have as many "ify" owners as Chicago?), but I am very happy that Lovie is getting what he deserves.

 

The Bears have been run completely differently ever since Virginia backhanded her son. I don't know why the national media insists on calling this franchise cheap for honoring contracts and why so many locals still think it's 1988.

 

This is the best run organization in town. They work smart, take calculated risks and spend big when they need to.

 

BTW, that ain't sayin' much. Its like saying that DeRosa is somewhat better than Neifi so we should all shut it and be satisfied.

[Chocolate Milk]

Free Agency starts tomorrow. Any thoughts?

[Banedon]

Glad we can stop listening to the press whine and cry about Lovie and "his money."

 

This deal was a foregone conclusion from the beginning.

 

I dunno if I agree with that given how stupidly the McCaskeys have conducted themselves in the recent past (does any major sports city have as many "ify" owners as Chicago?), but I am very happy that Lovie is getting what he deserves.

 

The Bears have been run completely differently ever since Virginia backhanded her son. I don't know why the national media insists on calling this franchise cheap for honoring contracts and why so many locals still think it's 1988.

 

This is the best run organization in town. They work smart, take calculated risks and spend big when they need to.

 

BTW, that ain't sayin' much. Its like saying that DeRosa is somewhat better than Neifi so we should all shut it and be satisfied.

 

LOL...are you calling the Bears, the team that won 13 games this year, and 11 last year, and went to the Super Bowl.....Mark Derosa?

 

I seriously don't get your beef.

[CubColtPacer]

Fair market value is based on what other coaches have received with extensions.

 

No it isn't. Fair market value is based on what the market is willing to give you. If you don't hit the market, there's no judging of what that market is. Coaches hit free agency all the time. College coaches are virtual free agents at all times, as are most coordinators. Then you have your steady supply of former head coaches not under contract.

 

Yes, it is-and Lovie would have been paid by a team. Just as we know what Z's approximate value by looking at similar players even though he has not hit the market yet, so we can know Lovie's market value by looking at what similar successful coaches have received.

 

simply looking at and citing what other coaches have gotten is not what fair market value means, though. we have no idea what the market would have been for lovie, maybe mike holmgren money, who knows?

 

lovie may have gotten his money but he would have had to wait to receive "fair market value".

 

this point has been driven home lately by chicago radio personalities, so if you want to debate "fair market value" with someone, call boers and bernsy today at the score between 2 and 6, dan bernsetin will be more than willing to share with you what the term means.

 

This is all about wording? Ok, he got a salary that is comparable to other coaches with some success on their resumes. Being that it was comparable, his deal was a "fair" deal, and all the talk about the Bears underpaying him can end. Is that better?

[RynoRules]

Glad we can stop listening to the press whine and cry about Lovie and "his money."

 

This deal was a foregone conclusion from the beginning.

 

I dunno if I agree with that given how stupidly the McCaskeys have conducted themselves in the recent past (does any major sports city have as many "ify" owners as Chicago?), but I am very happy that Lovie is getting what he deserves.

 

The Bears have been run completely differently ever since Virginia backhanded her son. I don't know why the national media insists on calling this franchise cheap for honoring contracts and why so many locals still think it's 1988.

 

This is the best run organization in town. They work smart, take calculated risks and spend big when they need to.

 

BTW, that ain't sayin' much. Its like saying that DeRosa is somewhat better than Neifi so we should all shut it and be satisfied.

 

LOL...are you calling the Bears, the team that won 13 games this year, and 11 last year, and went to the Super Bowl.....Mark Derosa?

 

I seriously don't get your beef.

 

If that is what you understood from my commentary then I don't know how to help you, but let me try:

 

I was criticizing goony's comment that implied that I should lay off b/c the Bears are apparently the best run org in town. Given how poorly some of the orgs in town are run, that ain't sayin' much.

[Soriano12]

Free Agency starts tomorrow. Any thoughts?

 

Eric Steinbech please.

[goonys evil twin]

You and I honor contracts. People who work in professional sports do not. You know it and I know it.

 

I'll stop thinking that the McCaskeys are truly running the show when they finally stop tripping all over themselves. There is no reason they could not have gotten this done earlier. There is no reason to name Dave McGinnis as your coach before he accepts the position. There is no reason that a major mkt team like this one should be 20 mill under the cap every year.

 

They aren't 20 under the cap every year, and the McGinnis thing was the straw that broke the camels back. I'm talking about the Phillips/Angelo Bears.

 

There is no reason why this had to get done earlier. There were people who got freaked out by it and those who didn't. Instead of blaming the Bears for freaking people out, I put the onus on the freakers. All of the evidence point to this team being run much differently than it was when free agency first started.

 

People who work in pro sports do honor contracts. If you fire a guy, you still have to pay him everything that is guaranteed. It does not make an organization cheap when they sign a guy to a contract and pay him what that contract stipulates. Some organizations like to throw money at all of their problems. I don't think it's done a whole lot for Snyder, nor has it helped Jerry Jones. Other organizations are more pragmatic when it comes to expenditures, like Philly, New England and the Bears.

 

People will scoff at comparing the Bears with those organizations, but the fact is the current regime has ammassed the most talented team in their conference and have set-up the team for lasting success. They have a president who hired his current GM who hired his current head coach, and a head coach who is being allowed to have the coaching staff he wants to keep.

[RynoRules]

You and I honor contracts. People who work in professional sports do not. You know it and I know it.

 

I'll stop thinking that the McCaskeys are truly running the show when they finally stop tripping all over themselves. There is no reason they could not have gotten this done earlier. There is no reason to name Dave McGinnis as your coach before he accepts the position. There is no reason that a major mkt team like this one should be 20 mill under the cap every year.

 

They aren't 20 under the cap every year, and the McGinnis thing was the straw that broke the camels back. I'm talking about the Phillips/Angelo Bears.

 

There is no reason why this had to get done earlier. There were people who got freaked out by it and those who didn't. Instead of blaming the Bears for freaking people out, I put the onus on the freakers. All of the evidence point to this team being run much differently than it was when free agency first started.

 

People who work in pro sports do honor contracts. If you fire a guy, you still have to pay him everything that is guaranteed. It does not make an organization cheap when they sign a guy to a contract and pay him what that contract stipulates. Some organizations like to throw money at all of their problems. I don't think it's done a whole lot for Snyder, nor has it helped Jerry Jones. Other organizations are more pragmatic when it comes to expenditures, like Philly, New England and the Bears.

 

People will scoff at comparing the Bears with those organizations, but the fact is the current regime has ammassed the most talented team in their conference and have set-up the team for lasting success. They have a president who hired his current GM who hired his current head coach, and a head coach who is being allowed to have the coaching staff he wants to keep.

 

I get what you are saying, I just disagree.

 

FYI - I did not freak out when the K did not get done initially; I always figured it would, and I believe that I posted that here. It bugs me, however, that Lovie apparently had to make a power play and use the media in order to make it happen.

 

One last thing: I understand that Phillips is the Prez and Mike McCaskey no longer is, but you know, he works for someone too, and those people have a horrendous track record for making good decisions and compensating deserving EEs.

Edited March 1, 2007 by RynoRules

[CubColtPacer]

You and I honor contracts. People who work in professional sports do not. You know it and I know it.

 

I'll stop thinking that the McCaskeys are truly running the show when they finally stop tripping all over themselves. There is no reason they could not have gotten this done earlier. There is no reason to name Dave McGinnis as your coach before he accepts the position. There is no reason that a major mkt team like this one should be 20 mill under the cap every year.

 

They aren't 20 under the cap every year, and the McGinnis thing was the straw that broke the camels back. I'm talking about the Phillips/Angelo Bears.

 

There is no reason why this had to get done earlier. There were people who got freaked out by it and those who didn't. Instead of blaming the Bears for freaking people out, I put the onus on the freakers. All of the evidence point to this team being run much differently than it was when free agency first started.

 

People who work in pro sports do honor contracts. If you fire a guy, you still have to pay him everything that is guaranteed. It does not make an organization cheap when they sign a guy to a contract and pay him what that contract stipulates. Some organizations like to throw money at all of their problems. I don't think it's done a whole lot for Snyder, nor has it helped Jerry Jones. Other organizations are more pragmatic when it comes to expenditures, like Philly, New England and the Bears.

 

People will scoff at comparing the Bears with those organizations, but the fact is the current regime has ammassed the most talented team in their conference and have set-up the team for lasting success. They have a president who hired his current GM who hired his current head coach, and a head coach who is being allowed to have the coaching staff he wants to keep.

 

I'm not sure I would want to be compared to the Patriots anymore-the Patriots being so cheap and being 20 million under the cap probably cost them the Super Bowl last year.

 

Now, I do understand what you're saying, and the Bears the last few years have done a really good job of prioritizing who to throw money at and who not to. It should set them up well for the future.

[goonys evil twin]

I was criticizing goony's comment that implied that I should lay off b/c the Bears are apparently the best run org in town. Given how poorly some of the orgs in town are run, that ain't sayin' much.

 

If the Bears were poorly run, but still the best run organization in town. You'd have a case. But they aren't poorly run, and there isn't a single bit of evidence to suggest they are. People are seeing things that aren't there. They negotiated a contract extension with their GM and head coach (who were both under contract already) 3 weeks after their season ended.

 

As for other org in town, you have the Blackhawks at the bottom of the barrel, followed by the no reckless Cubs. I'd say the Bulls are next in line, and all evidence I've see suggests they are run well, if not to championship caliber. The White Sox are a bit better than the Bulls, given their consistent winning, championship season and contender status. But I think the post-Michael/Hatley/Jauron Bears are run even better than the CWS.

[Banedon]

If that is what you understood from my commentary then I don't know how to help you, but let me try:

 

I was criticizing goony's comment that implied that I should lay off b/c the Bears are apparently the best run org in town. Given how poorly some of the orgs in town are run, that ain't sayin' much.

 

That's fine...but that doesn't make his comment untrue, and doesn't make your analogy accurate.

 

We're talking more like a Zambrano (Bears) vs Rusch (Blackhawks) comparison if you want to make a baseball analogy.

 

Your analogy implies that the Bears poorly run, but slightly better than another poorly run franschise, and that's just not the case.

[RynoRules]

Banedon / Goony:

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Apparently you both view the McCaskeys as being out of the picture. I do not not, and that colors my opinion of how the org is run.

 

Let's see how they handle free agency, not this year, but next year when they are likely to part ways with at least 2/5 of the O-Line, Briggs, one of Wally / Alex Brown, Moose, and if he struggles, Grossman. I understand that you need to rebuild through the draft in football, but if you are a major mkt team with a brand new stadium that is always full, you should be spending as well.

[CubColtPacer]

Banedon / Goony:

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Apparently you both view the McCaskeys as being out of the picture. I do not not, and that colors my opinion of how the org is run.

 

Let's see how they handle free agency, not this year, but next year when they are likely to part ways with at least 2/5 of the O-Line, Briggs, one of Wally / Alex Brown, Moose, and if he struggles, Grossman. I understand that you need to rebuild through the draft in football, but if you are a major mkt team with a brand new stadium that is always full, you should be spending as well.

 

If the Bears stay close to the cap limit and pay their coaches well, what more can they do? Major market doesn't mean nearly as much in football because every team spends about the same-about the only difference is that owners with more money can sometimes come up with multiple big signing bonuses in one year, but that money still has to be managed under the cap-it's more of an actual payroll thing of when the cash is paid than anything.

[Banedon]

Banedon / Goony:

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Apparently you both view the McCaskeys as being out of the picture. I do not not, and that colors my opinion of how the org is run.

 

Let's see how they handle free agency, not this year, but next year when they are likely to part ways with at least 2/5 of the O-Line, Briggs, one of Wally / Alex Brown, Moose, and if he struggles, Grossman. I understand that you need to rebuild through the draft in football, but if you are a major mkt team with a brand new stadium that is always full, you should be spending as well.

 

I'm glad you're willing to wait until next year to judge on free agency, because I don't envision them as being terribly active with free agency this season. Maybe Steinbach if they get lucky, but I imagine the bidding will get pretty high pretty fast on that one. They don't have a ton of holes, and the question areas they're probably going to rely on player development and the draft to fill those.

 

They have spent on free agents in the past few years, btw. Moose and Griese are prime examples, and they did go after Randle El and Archuleta. The Redskins meanwhile spent a ton of money on free agents, and got nothing to show for it. It's clearly less about spending money than it is talent evaluation. And that's where my faith in the Bears organization is right now. They have proven to be very good at spotting and developing talent.

[RynoRules]

Banedon / Goony:

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Apparently you both view the McCaskeys as being out of the picture. I do not not, and that colors my opinion of how the org is run.

 

Let's see how they handle free agency, not this year, but next year when they are likely to part ways with at least 2/5 of the O-Line, Briggs, one of Wally / Alex Brown, Moose, and if he struggles, Grossman. I understand that you need to rebuild through the draft in football, but if you are a major mkt team with a brand new stadium that is always full, you should be spending as well.

 

If the Bears stay close to the cap limit and pay their coaches well, what more can they do? Major market doesn't mean nearly as much in football because every team spends about the same-about the only difference is that owners with more money can sometimes come up with multiple big signing bonuses in one year, but that money still has to be managed under the cap-it's more of an actual payroll thing of when the cash is paid than anything.

 

I don't wish to belabor this any longer, but 20 mill under is the near the cap, in your opinion?

 

Again, let's wait and see what happens. I'll be happy to be proven wrong in this case.

[CubColtPacer]

Banedon / Goony:

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Apparently you both view the McCaskeys as being out of the picture. I do not not, and that colors my opinion of how the org is run.

 

Let's see how they handle free agency, not this year, but next year when they are likely to part ways with at least 2/5 of the O-Line, Briggs, one of Wally / Alex Brown, Moose, and if he struggles, Grossman. I understand that you need to rebuild through the draft in football, but if you are a major mkt team with a brand new stadium that is always full, you should be spending as well.

 

If the Bears stay close to the cap limit and pay their coaches well, what more can they do? Major market doesn't mean nearly as much in football because every team spends about the same-about the only difference is that owners with more money can sometimes come up with multiple big signing bonuses in one year, but that money still has to be managed under the cap-it's more of an actual payroll thing of when the cash is paid than anything.

 

I don't wish to belabor this any longer, but 20 mill under is the near the cap, in your opinion?

 

Again, let's wait and see what happens. I'll be happy to be proven wrong in this case.

 

They were 20 million under during last season?

[goonys evil twin]

Banedon / Goony:

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Apparently you both view the McCaskeys as being out of the picture. I do not not, and that colors my opinion of how the org is run.

 

What colors my opinion of how this org is run is how this org has been run since Ted/Jerry took over and hired Lovie. And I have been extremely pleased with what that triumvirate has accomplished, and how they have accomplished it. They didn't mortgage the future by creating a roster based largely on hope. They built a foundation from within and added from outside when necessary. The Bears are in great shape to maintain their recent run for the foreseeable future (which, in NFL terms is 2-3 years). I really don't see what a Bears fan would have to complain about.

 

I'm not talking about the post 2004 (hey just be happy for back to back .500 seasons) Cubs support. There is definitely room for improvement. But the general direction of the Bears is very positive.

[RynoRules]

FYI, ESPNsees the Bears pursuing only one of the 30 or so top FAs this offseason:

 

25. DT Anthony Adams

• Scouting report 49ers An undersized but active interior lineman who was not served well by the 49ers' defensive changes of the past couple seasons and probably needs to get to a team with a one-gap system. Can be disruptive at times.

Possible landing spot: Chicago, New Orleans.

[Soul]

Banedon / Goony:

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Apparently you both view the McCaskeys as being out of the picture. I do not not, and that colors my opinion of how the org is run.

 

Let's see how they handle free agency, not this year, but next year when they are likely to part ways with at least 2/5 of the O-Line, Briggs, one of Wally / Alex Brown, Moose, and if he struggles, Grossman. I understand that you need to rebuild through the draft in football, but if you are a major mkt team with a brand new stadium that is always full, you should be spending as well.

 

If the Bears stay close to the cap limit and pay their coaches well, what more can they do? Major market doesn't mean nearly as much in football because every team spends about the same-about the only difference is that owners with more money can sometimes come up with multiple big signing bonuses in one year, but that money still has to be managed under the cap-it's more of an actual payroll thing of when the cash is paid than anything.

 

I don't wish to belabor this any longer, but 20 mill under is the near the cap, in your opinion?

 

Again, let's wait and see what happens. I'll be happy to be proven wrong in this case.

 

They were 20 million under during last season?

 

That figure was posted, and after further review was from March 2006. Only teams in trouble are right up against the cap before they even draft. $20 million under in March is most definitely a GOOD thing, not bad.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Free Agency starts tomorrow. Any thoughts?

 

Eric Steinbech please.

 

Yes please.

[Banedon]

Free Agency starts tomorrow. Any thoughts?

 

Eric Steinbech please.

 

Yes please.

 

Thirded.

[Banedon]

FYI, ESPNsees the Bears pursuing only one of the 30 or so top FAs this offseason:

 

25. DT Anthony Adams

• Scouting report 49ers An undersized but active interior lineman who was not served well by the 49ers' defensive changes of the past couple seasons and probably needs to get to a team with a one-gap system. Can be disruptive at times.

Possible landing spot: Chicago, New Orleans.

 

OG Eric Steinbach

• Scouting report Bengals Durable lineman who has missed only one game and two starts in four seasons. More a technician than a brawler. At least one team feels he could be a standout tackle and several contend he would be a Pro Bowl-level center.

Possible landing spot: Cleveland.

 

Eric Steinbach is going to have a lot more potential landing spots than just Cleveland....

[rawaction]

Steinbach would be perfect. I still like the idea of drafting a guy like Sears, Staley, or Blalock who can play either G or OT. Plus, you can trade down and still likely get one of those gusy. And I still like Tony Ugoh as a tackle in the 2nd, if he's there. Has a lot of issues which could make him available there.

[RynoRules]

I think we desperately need an OT prospect. Miller and Tait were matadors when asked to pass block towards the end of last year.