McGwire doesn't fit with Cards greats

[Abe Frohman]

WHAT IF Sammy and/or Big Mac didn't use. How much of an injustice would be done?

 

I wouldn't have too much sympathy for those two, honestly. After all, both of them had the chance to stand up, point their finger at Congress in a court of law - and proclaim "I HAVE NEVER USED STEROIDS. EVER."

 

I am not sure if their motivation was to protect the Union, create a contraversey for themselves, or just avoid lying under oath - but I think we all can make a pretty educated guess.

[NCCubFan]

Problem is, the punishment for betting on baseball - lifetime banishment -was clearly defined when Rose got caught. To my knowledge, Baseball Writers Association of America members are not allowed to consider anyone that has been banned when they are casting their votes. However, the Veterans Committee can.

I'm quite certain the Veterans Committee can't either. If they could, I'm sure Shoeless Joe would be in by now.

[fromthestretch]

Problem is, the punishment for betting on baseball - lifetime banishment -was clearly defined when Rose got caught. To my knowledge, Baseball Writers Association of America members are not allowed to consider anyone that has been banned when they are casting their votes. However, the Veterans Committee can.

I'm quite certain the Veterans Committee can't either. If they could, I'm sure Shoeless Joe would be in by now.

 

That's odd. I could have sworn that changed in 2005.

[NCCubFan]

Problem is, the punishment for betting on baseball - lifetime banishment -was clearly defined when Rose got caught. To my knowledge, Baseball Writers Association of America members are not allowed to consider anyone that has been banned when they are casting their votes. However, the Veterans Committee can.

I'm quite certain the Veterans Committee can't either. If they could, I'm sure Shoeless Joe would be in by now.

 

That's odd. I could have sworn that changed in 2005.

Here's the list of players on the Veterans Committee ballot. It doesn't include Shoeless Joe. If he were eligible I'm sure he'd be on the ballot.

[Amazing_Grace]

And if they get caught, they should be punished by law (which isn't much to begin with), not by baseball, unless baseball specifically has rules or even guidelines for penalizing players for this type of action. You can argue that it may hurt the player's integrity or character, which are both taken into consideration when voting for the Hall of Fame. Those are things left up to the individual voter. But right now, baseball has a rule that says if you get caught once, you are suspended 50 games. It does not say that if you are caught once that you are not eligible for the Hall of Fame. Let's say that Player A is 30 years old and is on pace for a Hall of Fame-type career. He then gets busted using steroids and is suspended 50 games. He comes back, never tests positive again, and finishes his career with elite numbers. Are you (this question is posed to anyone, not just Amazing_Grace) going to hold him out of the Hall of Fame, essentially penalizing him twice for the same "crime?" I only ask because people are saying they don't want certain players in the HoF simply because they ALLEGEDLY took steroids, when there is no proof they actually did.

 

To answer your specific question, yes. If there is some doubt about whether a player's natural ability and effort alone were sufficient to build HOF type numbers and play at a HOF level, then I would leave them out. Going to the HOF is not the right of any ballplayer that manages to get 500 HR. It is a privelege that can be withheld for any of a number of reasons. Suspected cheating is one of them. Should they be left off the ballot? No, unless MLB takes official action against the player, which they can't and won't because of the union that will go to the mat to protect any player, no matter how corrupt. I think they should not be voted for. That's all. It's not exactly prison to be not inducted into the baseball HOF. They aren't losing any salary they made and aren't getting sued. They should be grateful that's the worst they have to put up with.

 

Also, it's meaningless to hold out for absolute proof. We'll never have access to it, assuming it ever exists. At best, MLB or someone will say that they have proof and take action, the player will deny it whether any punitive action is taken or not. We all have to take the information we have and make the best judgment we can. Now, I see players gain 50 pounds of muscle in a couple of seasons, I'm going to conclude the same thing I conclude when I see it in pro wrestling, but that's me. Rose never admitted to betting on baseball. As far as I know, he was never convicted of anything before any court of law, just banned from MLB.

 

Now, to be sure, there are a lot of crummy to semi-good players that used, probably 10 for every superstar, for no other reason than because there are a lot more crummy to semi-good players than there are superstars. It doesn't really matter though, because leaving suspected juicers out of the HOF has nothing to do with penalizing players. It has to do with protecting the integrity of the HOF. Do cheaters get in? Sometimes. Should they? I don't believe so.

[dew1679666265]

Problem is, the punishment for betting on baseball - lifetime banishment -was clearly defined when Rose got caught. To my knowledge, Baseball Writers Association of America members are not allowed to consider anyone that has been banned when they are casting their votes. However, the Veterans Committee can.

I'm quite certain the Veterans Committee can't either. If they could, I'm sure Shoeless Joe would be in by now.

 

That's odd. I could have sworn that changed in 2005.

Here's the list of players on the Veterans Committee ballot. It doesn't include Shoeless Joe. If he were eligible I'm sure he'd be on the ballot.

 

Roger Maris is not in the Hall of Fame? For some reason that seems odd to me. To be honest I don't know his career numbers, but I would have thought he'd get in simply for hitting 61.

[NCCubFan]

Here are Maris' career statistics. .260 career batting average, 275 home runs, and 851 RBIs. His worthiness for the Hall has been debated from time to time, but in my opinion, despite his numbers from 1960 through 1962, his overall numbers aren't good enough. And the fact that he's not in the Hall shows that the voters (both the writers and the Veterans Committee) agree. One record-setting season doesn't make a Hall of Famer.

[Soul]

Here are Maris' career statistics. .260 career batting average, 275 home runs, and 851 RBIs. His worthiness for the Hall has been debated from time to time, but in my opinion, despite his numbers from 1960 through 1962, his overall numbers aren't good enough. And the fact that he's not in the Hall shows that the voters (both the writers and the Veterans Committee) agree. One record-setting season doesn't make a Hall of Famer.

 

Maris also rarely approached 162 games played. After hitting 61 homers in 1961, he never again hit so many as 40. He did, however win 2 MVPs and was a pretty good OPS+ guy for awhile.