Bagwell Set to retire today...

[soccer10k]

Dang, I just looked up Bagwell's stats and he was much better than I thought. I never really paid much attention to him but he had some amazing seasons. I think he definitely deserves the HOF.

 

There was a thread started a couple months ago which posed the 'is Bagwell a HOFer' question and I said the same thing you did. I too didn't realize that his stats were as good as they were.

[Jehrico]

Dang, I just looked up Bagwell's stats and he was much better than I thought. I never really paid much attention to him but he had some amazing seasons. I think he definitely deserves the HOF.

 

There was a thread started a couple months ago which posed the 'is Bagwell a HOFer' question and I said the same thing you did. I too didn't realize that his stats were as good as they were.

He also loses some votes for the stupid facial hair. :D

[JeffH]

Jeff Bagwell is 24th all-time in career OPS.

 

Twenty-fourth.

[erik316wttn]

Wow.

 

I was of the "borderline" camp for Bagwell, but after going on baseball-reference.com and looking at some of the monster seasons he put up, I think he most definately belongs in the HOF.

 

.408 career OBP, .948 career OPS, and in the strike-shortened 1994 season in which he only played 110 games, he had 39 home runs, 116 RBI and a .368 BA. I shudder to think what those would have been had he had another third of a season to pad those stats.

 

Had he played for an east-coast team like the Yankees or Red Sox his whole career and put up identical numbers, there would be no question about his HOF worthiness.

 

Bags belongs in.

[jjgman21]

I seriously wonder why this guy has not been subjected to some of the rumors other guys in his generation were subjected to, especially considering one admitted offender came up in the same organization at the same time, and another early teammate is highly suspected. also consider that he never hit for much power until 1994 and we heard about that shoulder for years, but he was able to play through it until the crackdown.

 

me thinks he's as suspect as any, and it's either all in, or all out, yet I have a feeling when all is said and done, everyone will be in but Sammy...and I'm not a Sammy defender at all.

[erik316wttn]

I seriously wonder why this guy has not been subjected to some of the rumors other guys in his generation were subjected to, especially considering one admitted offender came up in the same organization at the same time, and another early teammate is highly suspected. also consider that he never hit for much power until 1994 and we heard about that shoulder for years, but he was able to play through it until the crackdown.

 

me thinks he's as suspect as any, and it's either all in, or all out, yet I have a feeling when all is said and done, everyone will be in but Sammy...and I'm not a Sammy defender at all.

 

Maybe it's because it's late, but who is the "early teammate" you're talking about? I know Caminiti is one.

[jjgman21]

I seriously wonder why this guy has not been subjected to some of the rumors other guys in his generation were subjected to, especially considering one admitted offender came up in the same organization at the same time, and another early teammate is highly suspected. also consider that he never hit for much power until 1994 and we heard about that shoulder for years, but he was able to play through it until the crackdown.

 

me thinks he's as suspect as any, and it's either all in, or all out, yet I have a feeling when all is said and done, everyone will be in but Sammy...and I'm not a Sammy defender at all.

 

Maybe it's because it's late, but who is the "early teammate" you're talking about? I know Caminiti is one.

 

he's the admitted. the suspected is Gonzalez, although the suspicions arose on him for years well removed from Houston.

[Backtobanks]

Wow.

 

I was of the "borderline" camp for Bagwell, but after going on baseball-reference.com and looking at some of the monster seasons he put up, I think he most definately belongs in the HOF.

 

.408 career OBP, .948 career OPS, and in the strike-shortened 1994 season in which he only played 110 games, he had 39 home runs, 116 RBI and a .368 BA. I shudder to think what those would have been had he had another third of a season to pad those stats.

 

Had he played for an east-coast team like the Yankees or Red Sox his whole career and put up identical numbers, there would be no question about his HOF worthiness.

Bags belongs in.

 

That could be said about a lot of players......Santo, Dawson, Blyleven, etc.

[nilodnayr]

Wow.

 

I was of the "borderline" camp for Bagwell, but after going on baseball-reference.com and looking at some of the monster seasons he put up, I think he most definately belongs in the HOF.

 

.408 career OBP, .948 career OPS, and in the strike-shortened 1994 season in which he only played 110 games, he had 39 home runs, 116 RBI and a .368 BA. I shudder to think what those would have been had he had another third of a season to pad those stats.

 

Had he played for an east-coast team like the Yankees or Red Sox his whole career and put up identical numbers, there would be no question about his HOF worthiness.

Bags belongs in.

 

That could be said about a lot of players......Santo, Dawson, Blyleven, etc.

 

While I love Santo and Dawson, Bagwell makes a significantly stronger case for the HOF.

[Jehrico]

I think his accomplishments merit first ballot selection; however, I highly doubt he gets in on the first try, and I hope he doesn't. If he doesn't get selected on the first ticket, he'll be an outstanding case that highlights the serious flaws in the process of HOF voting and the inconsistant standards that are applied in the process. I can hear Joe Morgan now, "I would have voted for him had he taken his team to the championship..."

[TruffleShuffle]

While I love Santo and Dawson, Bagwell makes a significantly stronger case for the HOF.

 

Dawson, no question. Santo, it's a little fuzzier there. I'm a big proponent of comparing players to others that have played their given position. If a guy is one of the ten best 1B, 2B, etc., he belongs in. Looking at 1B, Gehrig and Foxx were unquestionably better than Bagwell. The next tier would have to be McGwire, Bagwell, Greenberg (better player, but shorter career), Johnny Mize, Eddie Murray, Killebrew, Cap Anson, McCovey and Frank Thomas. Ignoring the whole steroid business, I'd probably rank them as:

 

1. Gehrig

2. Foxx

3. Greenberg (I think guys should be given credit when they missed some of their prime years due to the war - not penalized for this)

4. McGwire

5. Mize

6. Bagwell

7. Thomas

8. Killebrew

9. Murray

10. McCovey

 

whereas 3B I would go:

 

1. Schmidt

2. Eddie Mathews

3. George Brett

4. Boggs

5. Santo

6. Home Run Baker

7. Molitor

8. Brooks Robinson

9. Stan Hack

10. Rolen

 

 

So even though Bagwell was clearly the better hitter, I'd call him and Santo about even based on where they rank at their respective positions.

[Backtobanks]

While I love Santo and Dawson, Bagwell makes a significantly stronger case for the HOF.

 

Dawson, no question. Santo, it's a little fuzzier there. I'm a big proponent of comparing players to others that have played their given position. If a guy is one of the ten best 1B, 2B, etc., he belongs in. Looking at 1B, Gehrig and Foxx were unquestionably better than Bagwell. The next tier would have to be McGwire, Bagwell, Greenberg (better player, but shorter career), Johnny Mize, Eddie Murray, Killebrew, Cap Anson, McCovey and Frank Thomas. Ignoring the whole steroid business, I'd probably rank them as:

 

1. Gehrig

2. Foxx

3. Greenberg (I think guys should be given credit when they missed some of their prime years due to the war - not penalized for this)

4. McGwire

5. Mize

6. Bagwell

7. Thomas

8. Killebrew

9. Murray

10. McCovey

 

whereas 3B I would go:

 

1. Schmidt

2. Eddie Mathews

3. George Brett

4. Boggs

5. Santo

6. Home Run Baker

7. Molitor

8. Brooks Robinson

9. Stan Hack

10. Rolen

 

 

So even though Bagwell was clearly the better hitter, I'd call him and Santo about even based on where they rank at their respective positions.

 

I agree with your criteria, and by using it both Bagwell and Santo not only should be in the HOF, but probably 1st ballot HOFers. We all know how that turned out for Santo.

[TruffleShuffle]

I agree with your criteria, and by using it both Bagwell and Santo not only should be in the HOF, but probably 1st ballot HOFers. We all know how that turned out for Santo.

 

Santo has every negative that a non-sure-fire hall of famer could have working against them:

 

-played a position that is the most underrepresented in the HOF

-played during a pitcher's era, so his numbers don't look as impressive when compared to guys who played during more offensive eras

-never won or played in a World Series

-was overshadowed by a better, more charismatic teammate

-was overshadowed by another player at the same position during his era (Brooks Robinson, because of his defensive brilliance and playing on a better team)

-not great in the most overrated statistic (batting average); much of his value came from his ability to get on base, which is underrated by voters

-played solid but not spectacular defense, so receives little credit for his glove

 

 

In any case, I'd like to think that I'd feel so strongly about his HoF-worthiness even if I were not a Cub fan.

[nilodnayr]

While I love Santo and Dawson, Bagwell makes a significantly stronger case for the HOF.

 

Dawson, no question. Santo, it's a little fuzzier there. I'm a big proponent of comparing players to others that have played their given position. If a guy is one of the ten best 1B, 2B, etc., he belongs in. Looking at 1B, Gehrig and Foxx were unquestionably better than Bagwell. The next tier would have to be McGwire, Bagwell, Greenberg (better player, but shorter career), Johnny Mize, Eddie Murray, Killebrew, Cap Anson, McCovey and Frank Thomas. Ignoring the whole steroid business, I'd probably rank them as:

 

1. Gehrig

2. Foxx

3. Greenberg (I think guys should be given credit when they missed some of their prime years due to the war - not penalized for this)

4. McGwire

5. Mize

6. Bagwell

7. Thomas

8. Killebrew

9. Murray

10. McCovey

 

whereas 3B I would go:

 

1. Schmidt

2. Eddie Mathews

3. George Brett

4. Boggs

5. Santo

6. Home Run Baker

7. Molitor

8. Brooks Robinson

9. Stan Hack

10. Rolen

 

 

So even though Bagwell was clearly the better hitter, I'd call him and Santo about even based on where they rank at their respective positions.

 

I understand your criteria, but personally don't agree with position comparisons much especially when we are talking about first and thirdbasemen. Look at KC. They have Alex Gordon and Mark Teahen. They are going to have to move one or the other to the OF. What happens if Gordon gets moved to the OF, puts up 15 years of 150 OPS+ seasons. Does he not deserve to get into the HOF because the Royals just happened to also have Mark Teahen block him at 3b so in comparison his #s don't look as spectacular to other OFs of all time. Also, see Pujols and Cabrerra. I feel that there are guys who are great defensively and can play defensively demanding positions and there are guys who are good defensively who play less defensively demanding positions well. Santo could have very easily ended up as a 1b if he came up with the Braves. This is the criteria I used when I said Bagwell has a signficantly stronger case.

 

Bagwell finished with a career 150 OPS+, vs Santo's 125, a significant difference. Bagwell outpaced Santo in Black Ink (24 to 11), Grey Ink (157 to 147), HOF Standards (59 to 40.9) and HOF Monitor (149.5 to 88). They both played positions which are not traditionally thought of as defensive, but very much excelled at them defensively, I call that part of their game a tie.

[TruffleShuffle]

What happens if Gordon gets moved to the OF, puts up 15 years of 150 OPS+ seasons. Does he not deserve to get into the HOF because the Royals just happened to also have Mark Teahen block him at 3b so in comparison his #s don't look as spectacular to other OFs of all time.

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if Gordon has a 150 OPS+ for 15 years, he's going into the HOF no matter what position he plays.