Interesting claims from Kaplan

[Neuby]

[ All I was saying is that some people who already dislike Hendry will take an otherwise meaningless quote and run with it drawing all sorts of baseless conclusions from it like Hendry thinks Izturis is the long-term answer at SS. That claim has been made over and over again and used as criticism of his GMing abilities a lot on this board. I think that criticism is baseless. There are several other criticisms of him that aren't baseless. Creating more things to criticize him about is unnecessary.

 

Who made the comment after the 2005 season that he liked players who can catch the ball? I rest my case.

 

Hendry wanted to get some guys that can catch the ball is there something wrong with that? Maybe you guys are reading way too much into that comment. Hendry has stated this offseason he wants to get more starting pitching. Does that mean he doesn't also want to add some impact bats.

[A New Era]

[ All I was saying is that some people who already dislike Hendry will take an otherwise meaningless quote and run with it drawing all sorts of baseless conclusions from it like Hendry thinks Izturis is the long-term answer at SS. That claim has been made over and over again and used as criticism of his GMing abilities a lot on this board. I think that criticism is baseless. There are several other criticisms of him that aren't baseless. Creating more things to criticize him about is unnecessary.

 

Who made the comment after the 2005 season that he liked players who can catch the ball? I rest my case.

 

I think he'll be saying this winter he likes players who "hit the ball". . we shall see. .

[Larry Horse]

"I could also put together a pretty strong argument for how he has improved this team since taking over in July of '02."

 

This team has gone from five outs from the World Series in 03 to last place in 06. Short of a Marlin-type teardown, there aren't too many G.M.'s with a 90 to 100 million dollar payroll who could pull that off.

[RichHillIsABeast]

"I could also put together a pretty strong argument for how he has improved this team since taking over in July of '02."

 

This team has gone from five outs from the World Series in 03 to last place in 06. Short of a Marlin-type teardown, there aren't too many G.M.'s with a 90 to 100 million dollar payroll who could pull that off.

 

I'd like to see any other 100M teams lose two aces from their staff and an all-star 1B and still compete.

 

Should we have counted on Wood? No. DLee? Yes. Prior? Yes. Up till this last season, darn near everyone thought he had just suffered some fluke injuries (Giles, Hawpe, etc). It shocked everyone (ok, maybe not the pessimists) when he pulled up lame in ST.

 

We won more games in '04 than we did in '03. It just took more wins to get in the playoffs that year. That's improvement.

 

In '04 with Z, Wood, and Prior we were looking at a dynasty. Hendry doesn't prevent Wood from throwing back to back starts in high school, Prior from Giles, Prior from Hawpe, or DLee from Furcal.

[Larry Horse]

Can't go with you there, RichHill.

 

I gave up on Prior at the end of 04 and Wood's been off my radar for quite a while.

 

I honestly think there is no G.M. that would have continued to put his eggs in the Prior/Wood basket as long as Hendry. How many Cub fans on here after the 05 season were screaming for more starting pitching?

 

Also, not going to the playoffs the year after making the playoffs is not an improvement. That should magnify the fact that 03 looks to be more and more of a fluke under Hendry.

 

We'll see. Hendry's fighting for his G.M. title at this point. He better have a kick-ass offseason.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Can't go with you there, RichHill.

 

I gave up on Prior at the end of 04 and Wood's been off my radar for quite a while.

 

I honestly think there is no G.M. that would have continued to put his eggs in the Prior/Wood basket as long as Hendry. How many Cub fans on here after the 05 season were screaming for more starting pitching?

 

Also, not going to the playoffs the year after making the playoffs is not an improvement. That should magnify the fact that 03 looks to be more and more of a fluke under Hendry.

 

We'll see. Hendry's fighting for his G.M. title at this point. He better have a kick-ass offseason.

 

Now that MacPhail and Baker are gone, we'll see the real Hendry. He has the power and the free reign to do what he wants. You're right. Hendry better have an awesome offseason. People, right or wrong, want his head.

[WrigleyField 22]

"I could also put together a pretty strong argument for how he has improved this team since taking over in July of '02."

 

This team has gone from five outs from the World Series in 03 to last place in 06. Short of a Marlin-type teardown, there aren't too many G.M.'s with a 90 to 100 million dollar payroll who could pull that off.

 

I'd like to see any other 100M teams lose two aces from their staff and an all-star 1B and still compete.

 

Should we have counted on Wood? No. DLee? Yes. Prior? Yes. Up till this last season, darn near everyone thought he had just suffered some fluke injuries (Giles, Hawpe, etc). It shocked everyone (ok, maybe not the pessimists) when he pulled up lame in ST.

 

We won more games in '04 than we did in '03. It just took more wins to get in the playoffs that year. That's improvement.

 

In '04 with Z, Wood, and Prior we were looking at a dynasty. Hendry doesn't prevent Wood from throwing back to back starts in high school, Prior from Giles, Prior from Hawpe, or DLee from Furcal.

 

Lets pull up some old threads to analyze the claims about people still wanting Wood/Prior.

 

viewtopic.php?t=26396

-The rotation was mainly a concern of who the last starter (Z,Maddux,Wood,Prior) was going to be. Everything else was about the lineup.

 

viewtopic.php?t=26264

-Looks like one post that directly questions the health of the whole staff

 

viewtopic.php?t=26690

-More of the same

 

viewtopic.php?t=27088

-A little more split

 

This list is not at all a complete sampling of views, but by pulling up 4 threads regarding pitching 3 of them seemed to have a general consensus that we could count on Prior AND Wood. I'd be interested to do a much more thorough reading of posts from last offseason, and I have a feeling that as the offseason progressed there was more and more questioning about the health of Wood or Prior, but it looks like thats pretty much true that the fans still counted on their health. Hard to point fingers. After this year, though we won't see any of that.

[CubsWin]

"I could also put together a pretty strong argument for how he has improved this team since taking over in July of '02."

 

This team has gone from five outs from the World Series in 03 to last place in 06. Short of a Marlin-type teardown, there aren't too many G.M.'s with a 90 to 100 million dollar payroll who could pull that off.

 

I'd like to see any other 100M teams lose two aces from their staff and an all-star 1B and still compete.

 

Should we have counted on Wood? No. DLee? Yes. Prior? Yes. Up till this last season, darn near everyone thought he had just suffered some fluke injuries (Giles, Hawpe, etc). It shocked everyone (ok, maybe not the pessimists) when he pulled up lame in ST.

 

We won more games in '04 than we did in '03. It just took more wins to get in the playoffs that year. That's improvement.

 

In '04 with Z, Wood, and Prior we were looking at a dynasty. Hendry doesn't prevent Wood from throwing back to back starts in high school, Prior from Giles, Prior from Hawpe, or DLee from Furcal.

 

Lets pull up some old threads to analyze the claims about people still wanting Wood/Prior.

 

viewtopic.php?t=26396

-The rotation was mainly a concern of who the last starter (Z,Maddux,Wood,Prior) was going to be. Everything else was about the lineup.

 

viewtopic.php?t=26264

-Looks like one post that directly questions the health of the whole staff

 

viewtopic.php?t=26690

-More of the same

 

viewtopic.php?t=27088

-A little more split

 

This list is not at all a complete sampling of views, but by pulling up 4 threads regarding pitching 3 of them seemed to have a general consensus that we could count on Prior AND Wood. I'd be interested to do a much more thorough reading of posts from last offseason, and I have a feeling that as the offseason progressed there was more and more questioning about the health of Wood or Prior, but it looks like thats pretty much true that the fans still counted on their health. Hard to point fingers. After this year, though we won't see any of that.

Thanks for the research, WF22. Incomplete though it may be, it is more than anyone else, including myself, has taken the time to put forth thus far.

 

Ultimately, if fans want to hold Hendry solely accountable for the won-loss records of the Cubs since he has taken over, they are more than allowed. He has failed at providing a consistent winner and succeeded at improving the talent and results in some seasons since he has taken over. But because the last few seasons have been worse than the ones immediately following his take over, the more recent seasons will outweigh the previous ones in many people's minds. So be it, I say. He needs to get it back or get out. The proof will lie in the pudding the coming two seasons.

[WrigleyField 22]

"I could also put together a pretty strong argument for how he has improved this team since taking over in July of '02."

 

This team has gone from five outs from the World Series in 03 to last place in 06. Short of a Marlin-type teardown, there aren't too many G.M.'s with a 90 to 100 million dollar payroll who could pull that off.

 

I'd like to see any other 100M teams lose two aces from their staff and an all-star 1B and still compete.

 

Should we have counted on Wood? No. DLee? Yes. Prior? Yes. Up till this last season, darn near everyone thought he had just suffered some fluke injuries (Giles, Hawpe, etc). It shocked everyone (ok, maybe not the pessimists) when he pulled up lame in ST.

 

We won more games in '04 than we did in '03. It just took more wins to get in the playoffs that year. That's improvement.

 

In '04 with Z, Wood, and Prior we were looking at a dynasty. Hendry doesn't prevent Wood from throwing back to back starts in high school, Prior from Giles, Prior from Hawpe, or DLee from Furcal.

 

Lets pull up some old threads to analyze the claims about people still wanting Wood/Prior.

 

viewtopic.php?t=26396

-The rotation was mainly a concern of who the last starter (Z,Maddux,Wood,Prior) was going to be. Everything else was about the lineup.

 

viewtopic.php?t=26264

-Looks like one post that directly questions the health of the whole staff

 

viewtopic.php?t=26690

-More of the same

 

viewtopic.php?t=27088

-A little more split

 

This list is not at all a complete sampling of views, but by pulling up 4 threads regarding pitching 3 of them seemed to have a general consensus that we could count on Prior AND Wood. I'd be interested to do a much more thorough reading of posts from last offseason, and I have a feeling that as the offseason progressed there was more and more questioning about the health of Wood or Prior, but it looks like thats pretty much true that the fans still counted on their health. Hard to point fingers. After this year, though we won't see any of that.

Thanks for the research, WF22. Incomplete though it may be, it is more than anyone else, including myself, has taken the time to put forth thus far.

 

Ultimately, if fans want to hold Hendry solely accountable for the won-loss records of the Cubs since he has taken over, they are more than allowed. He has failed at providing a consistent winner and succeeded at improving the talent and results in some seasons since he has taken over. But because the last few seasons have been worse than the ones immediately following his take over, the more recent seasons will outweigh the previous ones in many people's minds. So be it, I say. He needs to get it back or get out. The proof will lie in the pudding the coming two seasons.

 

I agree we should hold him accountable, but it is possible, there is a little more "I told you so" going on than should, at least as it relates to the starting pitching.

[CubsWin]

I agree we should hold him accountable, but it is possible, there is a little more "I told you so" going on than should, at least as it relates to the starting pitching.

But here's the thing. Baseball is largely an unpredictable game. Injuries. Luck. Bounces of the ball. They all come into play. It isn't known as a game of inches for nothing. How many of us said going into '05 that the White Sox would win it all or that the Tigers would do what they have done this season? Answer: very few, if any.

 

So when the Cubs played so well in '03, I was gulty of telling fans, "I told you so" and I was making all sorts of predictions about how well they would do in '04. I was right in '03 and wrong in '04. But was I really? Did I really know that they would do so well in '03 or did things just turn out to match my predicted result?

 

Many of the more pessimistic and negative fans didn't even predict the Cubs would do as poorly as they did this season. Have they been vindicated? Did they really know how it was going to go or did it just turn out to match what they predicted? I don't think we could possibly know enough to really know how a season is going to go. There are simply too many variables. Anyone who claims to be right about predicting a Cubs failure this season or their success in previous seasons because they knew it ahead of time is deluding themselves. But so what? That's part of the fun of being a baseball fan. Thinking that we know. Being an armchair manager and GM. We wouldn't have much to talk about on this board without that.

 

I only ask that people keep in mind that we simply don't know enough to really know anything about this game. We can build really solid arguments, but in the end, its still just an opinion. And we should respect other opinions that are also well supported.

[goonys evil twin]

We can build really solid arguments, but in the end, its still just an opinion. And we should respect other opinions that are also well supported.

 

Define well supported.

[RynoRules]

Bottom line having Neifi or Izturis on our team is a bad idea and never was a good idea for them to be here in the first place.

 

This sums it up nicely, particularly if we look at this thing out of context. That's not a crticism, BTW. I agree that its not a good idea to have either of those guys on your team.

 

Here's the thing: Izturis apparently has "perceived value", i.e., certain GMs and orgs see him as a good fielder and hitter for his position. Accordingly, is it so out of the relm of possibility that he will be moved this Winter? His contract isn't horrendous (unless you take the time to measure it againt his actual production, which we know many GMs will not do). He's not getting traded to Oakland anytime soon, but is it so crazy to think that teamslike Cinci (traded Lopez and have no one else that I am aware of, sans Clayton), KC (Berrora = bust), or even Minnesota (he'd get a lot more hits on turf and has good range) would want him?

 

I dunno about the thing with Hendry and MaPhail. I did not have a problem trading Maddux, but hated the return. Bruce tells us that the Dodgers refused to give up any prospects, and I have no idea what elese was offere dto Hendry by other teams. Its possible, IMO, that Hendry saw this is a "get-him-then-flip-him" type deal.

 

I do find it very interesting that MacPhail - who supposedly ceded all personnel decisions to the GM - was the one who "resigned". Higher-ups are often given the option of resigning in lieu of being fired.

[frostwyrm]

"I could also put together a pretty strong argument for how he has improved this team since taking over in July of '02."

 

This team has gone from five outs from the World Series in 03 to last place in 06. Short of a Marlin-type teardown, there aren't too many G.M.'s with a 90 to 100 million dollar payroll who could pull that off.

 

I'd like to see any other 100M teams lose two aces from their staff and an all-star 1B and still compete.

 

Should we have counted on Wood? No. DLee? Yes. Prior? Yes. Up till this last season, darn near everyone thought he had just suffered some fluke injuries (Giles, Hawpe, etc). It shocked everyone (ok, maybe not the pessimists) when he pulled up lame in ST.

 

We won more games in '04 than we did in '03. It just took more wins to get in the playoffs that year. That's improvement.

 

In '04 with Z, Wood, and Prior we were looking at a dynasty. Hendry doesn't prevent Wood from throwing back to back starts in high school, Prior from Giles, Prior from Hawpe, or DLee from Furcal.

 

Lets pull up some old threads to analyze the claims about people still wanting Wood/Prior.

 

viewtopic.php?t=26396

-The rotation was mainly a concern of who the last starter (Z,Maddux,Wood,Prior) was going to be. Everything else was about the lineup.

 

viewtopic.php?t=26264

-Looks like one post that directly questions the health of the whole staff

 

viewtopic.php?t=26690

-More of the same

 

viewtopic.php?t=27088

-A little more split

 

This list is not at all a complete sampling of views, but by pulling up 4 threads regarding pitching 3 of them seemed to have a general consensus that we could count on Prior AND Wood. I'd be interested to do a much more thorough reading of posts from last offseason, and I have a feeling that as the offseason progressed there was more and more questioning about the health of Wood or Prior, but it looks like thats pretty much true that the fans still counted on their health. Hard to point fingers. After this year, though we won't see any of that.

Thanks for the research, WF22. Incomplete though it may be, it is more than anyone else, including myself, has taken the time to put forth thus far.

 

Ultimately, if fans want to hold Hendry solely accountable for the won-loss records of the Cubs since he has taken over, they are more than allowed. He has failed at providing a consistent winner and succeeded at improving the talent and results in some seasons since he has taken over. But because the last few seasons have been worse than the ones immediately following his take over, the more recent seasons will outweigh the previous ones in many people's minds. So be it, I say. He needs to get it back or get out. The proof will lie in the pudding the coming two seasons.

 

I agree we should hold him accountable, but it is possible, there is a little more "I told you so" going on than should, at least as it relates to the starting pitching.

 

I know there was at least one pessimist here because I remember writing even before opening day that the 2006 team was going to stink so bad that a quick fall from contention would be for the best. Even before spring training I had zero faith in Kerry Wood contributing anything at all as a starter, and by March my faith in Prior had plummetted. If the search feature was enabled I could dig up the threads and say my "told ya so"s.

[RynoRules]

We can build really solid arguments, but in the end, its still just an opinion. And we should respect other opinions that are also well supported.

 

Define well supported.

 

You first.

[Sammy Sofa]

Here's the thing: Izturis apparently has "perceived value", i.e., certain GMs and orgs see him as a good fielder and hitter for his position. Accordingly, is it so out of the relm of possibility that he will be moved this Winter? His contract isn't horrendous (unless you take the time to measure it againt his actual production, which we know many GMs will not do). He's not getting traded to Oakland anytime soon, but is it so crazy to think that teamslike Cinci (traded Lopez and have no one else that I am aware of, sans Clayton), KC (Berrora = bust), or even Minnesota (he'd get a lot more hits on turf and has good range) would want him?

 

Excellent point. The Reds might be an especially good target since you could package Izturis with a reliever or two for probably a pretty decent return.

[YearofDaCubs]

"I could also put together a pretty strong argument for how he has improved this team since taking over in July of '02."

 

This team has gone from five outs from the World Series in 03 to last place in 06. Short of a Marlin-type teardown, there aren't too many G.M.'s with a 90 to 100 million dollar payroll who could pull that off.

 

I'd like to see any other 100M teams lose two aces from their staff and an all-star 1B and still compete.

 

Should we have counted on Wood? No. DLee? Yes. Prior? Yes. Up till this last season, darn near everyone thought he had just suffered some fluke injuries (Giles, Hawpe, etc). It shocked everyone (ok, maybe not the pessimists) when he pulled up lame in ST.

 

We won more games in '04 than we did in '03. It just took more wins to get in the playoffs that year. That's improvement.

 

In '04 with Z, Wood, and Prior we were looking at a dynasty. Hendry doesn't prevent Wood from throwing back to back starts in high school, Prior from Giles, Prior from Hawpe, or DLee from Furcal.

Wood and Prior should not have been counted on. Let's face it they are both injury prone players since 2004 and it's pretty ridiculous what Hendry had as a backup plan..none. Why wasn't a trade made much sooner when Lee went down? I don't believe the fluke injuries crap with Prior either. He has his fair share of legit injuries since 2004 but I think people just remember the collision and hit by ball injuries, there have been more. We laid an egg in 2004 due to our GM not picking up a closer when Hawkins was faltering so bad and Dusty the genius left him in that role. Everybody knew we needed a closer when Borowski went down but our GM was late to the party as usual waiting until waivers were set to try and pick up Jose Mesa. since the end of 2004 Hendry has done a pathetic job as GM, IMO. Sure, he's done some good moves since then but the bad far outweigh the good.

[Sammy Sofa]

I don't believe the fluke injuries crap with Prior either. He has his fair share of legit injuries since 2004 but I think people just remember the collision and hit by ball injuries, there have been more.

 

Nothing that made him miss significant amounts of time.

[YearofDaCubs]

I don't believe the fluke injuries crap with Prior either. He has his fair share of legit injuries since 2004 but I think people just remember the collision and hit by ball injuries, there have been more.

 

Nothing that made him miss significant amounts of time.

Really? 2004: 118IP 2005:166IP 2006:43IP, I beg to differ.

[Sammy Sofa]

I don't believe the fluke injuries crap with Prior either. He has his fair share of legit injuries since 2004 but I think people just remember the collision and hit by ball injuries, there have been more.

 

Nothing that made him miss significant amounts of time.

Really? 2004: 118IP 2005:166IP 2006:43IP, I beg to differ.

 

I'm sorry, I assumed that 2006 was the obvious exception. My point has always been that this year has been the only year that he has missed significant time for anything besides fluke accidents on the field. I think 2006 was the build up of 2003 and the two accidents and the adjustments he had to make for all 3 issues finally coming to a head.

[YearofDaCubs]

I don't believe the fluke injuries crap with Prior either. He has his fair share of legit injuries since 2004 but I think people just remember the collision and hit by ball injuries, there have been more.

 

Nothing that made him miss significant amounts of time.

Really? 2004: 118IP 2005:166IP 2006:43IP, I beg to differ.

 

I'm sorry, I assumed that 2006 was the obvious exception. My point has always been that this year has been the only year that he has missed significant time for anything besides fluke accidents on the field. I think 2006 was the build up of 2003 and the two accidents and the adjustments he had to make for all 3 issues finally coming to a head.

The thing I'm worried about the most with Prior is that he is damaged goods and he will never be the same and there's good reason to think that is highly possible.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't believe the fluke injuries crap with Prior either. He has his fair share of legit injuries since 2004 but I think people just remember the collision and hit by ball injuries, there have been more.

 

Nothing that made him miss significant amounts of time.

Really? 2004: 118IP 2005:166IP 2006:43IP, I beg to differ.

 

I'm sorry, I assumed that 2006 was the obvious exception. My point has always been that this year has been the only year that he has missed significant time for anything besides fluke accidents on the field. I think 2006 was the build up of 2003 and the two accidents and the adjustments he had to make for all 3 issues finally coming to a head.

 

What about the achilles? There was talk that his ankle area was bothering him at the end of 2003, then he couldn't start 2004 because of an achilles issue.

[Sammy Sofa]

I don't believe the fluke injuries crap with Prior either. He has his fair share of legit injuries since 2004 but I think people just remember the collision and hit by ball injuries, there have been more.

 

Nothing that made him miss significant amounts of time.

Really? 2004: 118IP 2005:166IP 2006:43IP, I beg to differ.

 

I'm sorry, I assumed that 2006 was the obvious exception. My point has always been that this year has been the only year that he has missed significant time for anything besides fluke accidents on the field. I think 2006 was the build up of 2003 and the two accidents and the adjustments he had to make for all 3 issues finally coming to a head.

The thing I'm worried about the most with Prior is that he is damaged goods and he will never be the same and there's good reason to think that is highly possible.

 

Oh, that's definitely a distinct possibility, unfortunately. I just hope that he and the organization use the next 4 months wisely.

[Sammy Sofa]

I don't believe the fluke injuries crap with Prior either. He has his fair share of legit injuries since 2004 but I think people just remember the collision and hit by ball injuries, there have been more.

 

Nothing that made him miss significant amounts of time.

Really? 2004: 118IP 2005:166IP 2006:43IP, I beg to differ.

 

I'm sorry, I assumed that 2006 was the obvious exception. My point has always been that this year has been the only year that he has missed significant time for anything besides fluke accidents on the field. I think 2006 was the build up of 2003 and the two accidents and the adjustments he had to make for all 3 issues finally coming to a head.

 

What about the achilles? There was talk that his ankle area was bothering him at the end of 2003, then he couldn't start 2004 because of an achilles issue.

 

Didn't he miss one start due to the achilles?

[goonys evil twin]

Didn't he miss one start due to the achilles?

 

He missed the first two months of 2004.

[Sammy Sofa]

Didn't he miss one start due to the achilles?

 

He missed the first two months of 2004.

 

Shoot, I'm mixed up. Was it 2005 where he just missed his first start and then showed up?