Pierre Gone?

[Pinktermite]

The Cubs MUST offer arbitration in order to restock the farm system Hendry pilfered when he made the trade to get Pierre.

 

 

It seems to me that he gave up Wellemeyer and Mitre, who were average just like they were with the cubs.

 

The only real keeper seems to be Nolasco...and he's not a sure bet. I'm not arguing to keep Pierre...he's average for the money he would cost. I'm just wondering did he really "pilfer" the farm to get Juan?

[goonys evil twin]

The Cubs MUST offer arbitration in order to restock the farm system Hendry pilfered when he made the trade to get Pierre.

 

 

It seems to me that he gave up Wellemeyer and Mitre, who were average just like they were with the cubs.

 

The only real keeper seems to be Nolasco...and he's not a sure bet. I'm not arguing to keep Pierre...he's average for the money he would cost. I'm just wondering did he really "pilfer" the farm to get Juan?

 

Wellemeyer was seperete, this deal was Pinto.

 

People look at what happens to these guys, and then say we might not have given up much (Nolasco alone was too much), but what is important to remember is while these guys might not have ever helped win games on the field for the Cubs, they were trading chips. You can always sweeten deals with guys like this, especially for teams desperate for arms, of which there are many.

[Pinktermite]

Sorry about that, you're right...Pinto. Regardless, giving up prospects for sure things is great..."sure things" aren't named Juan Pierre...

[BigbadB]

The Cubs MUST offer arbitration in order to restock the farm system Hendry pilfered when he made the trade to get Pierre.

 

 

It seems to me that he gave up Wellemeyer and Mitre, who were average just like they were with the cubs.

 

The only real keeper seems to be Nolasco...and he's not a sure bet. I'm not arguing to keep Pierre...he's average for the money he would cost. I'm just wondering did he really "pilfer" the farm to get Juan?

 

I believe pilfer is the correct terminology. Pitching is what every team needs more than anything else. Half a teams roster is made up of pitchers. Trading 3 pitching prospects for a 1 year rental (and not a very good one at that) is pilfering the farm.

 

If we were getting someone decent in return that would be here more than a year, I might change my overall impression of that trade. But, it is what it was. Hendry way overspent for Pierre.

[DiamondMind]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

[goonys evil twin]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

This is a terrible post.

 

Fact is he doesn't get on base, and he gets himself thrown out too often when he does. He stunk in 2005 and wasn't good in 2006.

[NorthsideAvenger]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

This is a terrible post.

 

Fact is he doesn't get on base, and he gets himself thrown out too often when he does. He stunk in 2005 and wasn't good in 2006.

 

=D> gooney.

[NewUserName]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

 

I am not sure what to address. He was probably one of the worse leadoff man in the NL. He gets in pitchers heads so much that he was caught stealing 20 times. We play a whole season not just post all star game. Boston Red Sox won WS 2 years ago with no speed at the top of the order. Neither Detroit or St Louis has a good basestealer at the top of order. Pierre isnt in the top half of defensive CFer in the National league. Speed isnt the only thing in range. Good jump and taking a straight line to the ball are even more important and since Pierre is poor at both of these he really doesnt even have good range. So just about everything you posted was not correct. By the way I didnt use one stat to show this except caught stealing.

[DiamondMind]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

This is a terrible post.

 

Fact is he doesn't get on base, and he gets himself thrown out too often when he does. He stunk in 2005 and wasn't good in 2006.

 

You know, all of us could sling around insults.

[goonys evil twin]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

This is a terrible post.

 

Fact is he doesn't get on base, and he gets himself thrown out too often when he does. He stunk in 2005 and wasn't good in 2006.

 

You know, all of us could sling around insults.

 

I'm not slinging insults. You made a terrible post. You made completely inaccurate claims.

 

We don't have to resign Pierre, we should only tolerate it if he was a cheap one year deal and they got a lot of other production. Your hatred of stats is your own problem that you have to come to terms with, because stats matter. Pierre is not a good baseball player.

[DiamondMind]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

This is a terrible post.

 

Fact is he doesn't get on base, and he gets himself thrown out too often when he does. He stunk in 2005 and wasn't good in 2006.

 

You know, all of us could sling around insults.

 

I'm not slinging insults. You made a terrible post. You made completely inaccurate claims.

 

We don't have to resign Pierre, we should only tolerate it if he was a cheap one year deal and they got a lot of other production. Your hatred of stats is your own problem that you have to come to terms with, because stats matter. Pierre is not a good baseball player.

 

Terrible post in your opinion, not all. You should respect the opinions of others, even if you think they're terrible. I think Pierre should be retained, so what?

 

I just fail to see how a rare commodity like a leadoff hitter, that plays excellent defense, led the NL in hits, and had a .350+ OBP after the break is a terrible player. Not to mention that the pitching we originally gave up to acquire him would wasted. He also presents about a 0% chance of injury over the year.

Edited October 20, 2006 by DiamondMind

[fiver]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

This is a terrible post.

 

Fact is he doesn't get on base, and he gets himself thrown out too often when he does. He stunk in 2005 and wasn't good in 2006.

 

You know, all of us could sling around insults.

 

I'm not slinging insults. You made a terrible post. You made completely inaccurate claims.

 

We don't have to resign Pierre, we should only tolerate it if he was a cheap one year deal and they got a lot of other production. Your hatred of stats is your own problem that you have to come to terms with, because stats matter. Pierre is not a good baseball player.

 

Terrible post in your opinion, not all. You should respect the opinions of other, even if you think they're terrible. I think Pierre should be retained, so what?

 

so you're saying that people shouldn't disagree with each other?

[DiamondMind]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

This is a terrible post.

 

Fact is he doesn't get on base, and he gets himself thrown out too often when he does. He stunk in 2005 and wasn't good in 2006.

 

You know, all of us could sling around insults.

 

I'm not slinging insults. You made a terrible post. You made completely inaccurate claims.

 

We don't have to resign Pierre, we should only tolerate it if he was a cheap one year deal and they got a lot of other production. Your hatred of stats is your own problem that you have to come to terms with, because stats matter. Pierre is not a good baseball player.

 

Terrible post in your opinion, not all. You should respect the opinions of other, even if you think they're terrible. I think Pierre should be retained, so what?

 

so you're saying that people shouldn't disagree with each other?

 

Yes, because, thats what I said. Right.

[fiver]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

This is a terrible post.

 

Fact is he doesn't get on base, and he gets himself thrown out too often when he does. He stunk in 2005 and wasn't good in 2006.

 

You know, all of us could sling around insults.

 

I'm not slinging insults. You made a terrible post. You made completely inaccurate claims.

 

We don't have to resign Pierre, we should only tolerate it if he was a cheap one year deal and they got a lot of other production. Your hatred of stats is your own problem that you have to come to terms with, because stats matter. Pierre is not a good baseball player.

 

Terrible post in your opinion, not all. You should respect the opinions of others, even if you think they're terrible. I think Pierre should be retained, so what?

 

I just fail to see how a rare commodity like a leadoff hitter, that plays excellent defense, led the NL in hits, and had a .350+ OBP after the break is a terrible player. Not to mention that the pitching we originally gave up to acquire him would wasted. He also presents about a 0% chance of injury over the year.

 

"leadoff hitter"..please define.."great defense"..please define.

[DiamondMind]

 

"leadoff hitter"..please define.."great defense"..please define.

 

 

You guys are vultures today. A little patronizing, eh?

[fiver]

A little patronizing, eh?

 

 

perhaps...let's try again.

 

What type of contract would you be willing to offer Pierre?

[goonys evil twin]

Terrible post in your opinion, not all. You should respect the opinions of others, even if you think they're terrible. I think Pierre should be retained, so what?

 

I just fail to see how a rare commodity like a leadoff hitter, that plays excellent defense, led the NL in hits, and had a .350+ OBP after the break is a terrible player. Not to mention that the pitching we originally gave up to acquire him would wasted. He also presents about a 0% chance of injury over the year.

 

It was a terrible post because you willingly ignored facts and listed a bunch of cliches and untruths. Respecting your ability to have an opinion doesn't mean I have to respect an opinion if I see that it is based on false pretenses.

 

Pierre stinks. He stunk last year. He stunk for the Cubs. He's unlikely to be good in the next couple years. He's not a rare commodity, the only way he would be is if you mistakenly put value on being a leadoff hitter. Leadoff hitter is not a position. Center field is a position, and Pierre is one of the worst out there, and he's expensive.

[NewUserName]

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

This is a terrible post.

 

Fact is he doesn't get on base, and he gets himself thrown out too often when he does. He stunk in 2005 and wasn't good in 2006.

 

You know, all of us could sling around insults.

 

 

It is a terrible post. Just claiming he is a good defensive CFer and Gets in pitchrs head is not a good post. Than to say dont throw stats around to dissprove how terrible my post is. He also called the post terrible, which is seperate from the poster. Its no different than saying Someone is a terrible President, Teacher or any other profession. It is seperate than the person. If I was to say my friend was a terrible BB player, that is correct. It doesnt make him a terrible person though. If he is to thin skinned and takes it personal that is his problem not mine or he is really dilusional.

[NorthsideAvenger]

 

"leadoff hitter"..please define.."great defense"..please define.

 

 

You guys are vultures today. A little patronizing, eh?

 

We HAVE to resign Pierre. I'm so sick and tired of the endless ranting about stats. Fact is Pierre gets on base, makes things happen, and gets in the pitchers head. So he's not the best leadoff man in baseball, so what? After the ASG he was excellent, and its not unreasonable to believe that was the real Juan Pierre, not the late-05/early-06 version. Every championship team has speed at the top of the order. Defensively, Pierre was also the best CF in the NL. Weak arm, but unmatched range.

 

Well, if you wouldn't have come in with your "guns a blazin" with the aforemention post, maybe you wouldn't be pick on. You created the vultures like atmosphere, so don't go crying when it comes back and bite you on the butt.

 

With that said, back on target of Juan Pierre. Considering the production that Pierre gave the Cubs, the Cubs don't "HAVE" to re-sign Pierre. Pierre was pretty much crap when the Cubs needed him. He only turned it on, when the pressure was off. And considering the pricetag that Pierre is going to want....re-signing Pierre is low on the priorities. Besides, I think somebody like Murton or Theriot can give the Cubs similar or better production out of the leadoff poistion then Juan Pierre, and DO IT SIGNIFICANTLY CHEAPER. So, if you are such a fan of Juan Pierre, you going to be rooting for another team in 2007.

[RichHillIsABeast]

I just fail to see how a rare commodity like a leadoff hitter, that plays excellent defense, led the NL in hits, and had a .350+ OBP after the break is a terrible player. Not to mention that the pitching we originally gave up to acquire him would wasted. He also presents about a 0% chance of injury over the year.

 

I do agree that Pierre's range is above average in CF. I don't know where some people are getting this idea that he stinks in the field. His reads on the ball are very solid. He tracks very well.

 

His arm is a big liability though. That extra base on his arm really counts against him, IMO.

 

The only reason he led the NL in hits is b/c he played so many games. His BA wasn't that great. It's not exactly something to be proud of that he had so many hits. There are tons of players that would get more hits if they batted leadoff and played 162 games.

 

He may have had a .350+ OBP after the ASB, but his slow start killed us. It isn't the first time he's pulled this slow start garbage. Games played at the beginning of the season count just as much towards your overall record as any other regular season games.

 

I do like his speed on the basepaths, not just b/c he can steal bases, but because he can take that extra base with the ball in play. I don't like his caught stealing numbers. It's ridiculous that a guy with that much speed can't steal bases more successfully. You might as well not get that hit if you're just going to run into an out.

 

He has a great work ethic. Wonderful. So does Murton.

 

0% chance of injury? There is no such thing in baseball.

 

I never though Prior would destroy his should running into Giles or catching a line drive off the elbow. Freak things happen. If Pierre suffers a leg injury, he has zero value. All his skills are tied up in his speed.

 

Pierre is a good player at 5-6M per season. He'll easily get more than that in arbi or on the FA market. I'll pass on Pierre. The skills he brings to the table aren't worth it.

[goonys evil twin]

Pierre is a good player at 5-6M per season.

 

I'd have to disagree. He made 5.7m this year, and was a problem. His OPS+ of 81 (84 in 2005, 86 career) suggests his production is significantly below average, yet a 5-6m salary is significantly below. He's a below average player. The only value he gives is that he's not among the very worst. I would say, at best, he's worth a slightly below average salary, and that's only because there's a slight chance he'll get a little better.

 

Teams need production, and guys like Pierre just don't provide it. No reason to pay extra for that.

[CubinNY]

 

I do agree that Pierre's range is above average in CF. I don't know where some people are getting this idea that he stinks in the field. His reads on the ball are very solid. He tracks very well.

.

 

He doesn't "track" well. Whatever the hell that is. He relies on his speed. He breaks late to the ball and makes up for his late start with his speed. He often takes bad routs to balls. Because of this when he catches the ball he is rarely in a good position to throw the ball, altough that is not too big of a problem with his arm. He's never been a "great" CFer and rarely exhibits "good" CF skills.

 

I don't know who you've been whatching in CF but it hasn't been Pierre.

[NewUserName]

As I mentioned earlier if you look up ESPN stats for CFers Pierre is easily one of the 3 worst regular CFers in offensive numbers. It is nonsense to bring him back for even 4 or 5 million. Felix Pie would put up at least as good offensive numbers for the league minimum.

 

As for the defense, I dont know what to say except Steve Stone kept on trying to tell us that Randall Simon was a good 1b a couple of years ago. Just because some baseball people say he has good range doesnt make it so. I know that Range Factor isnt a good stat but Pierre was at the bottom of the league at that. There has to be something to that. He doesnt get a good jump and takes a bent path to the ball usually. This to go with his weak arm.

 

I will concede this. He probably isnt in the bottom quarter of defensive players in the NL, he certainly isnt the best though. He is without a doubt one to the worst regular cfers in all of baseball offensively.

[RichHillIsABeast]

 

I do agree that Pierre's range is above average in CF. I don't know where some people are getting this idea that he stinks in the field. His reads on the ball are very solid. He tracks very well.

.

 

He doesn't "track" well. Whatever the hell that is. He relies on his speed. He breaks late to the ball and makes up for his late start with his speed. He often takes bad routs to balls. Because of this when he catches the ball he is rarely in a good position to throw the ball, altough that is not too big of a problem with his arm. He's never been a "great" CFer and rarely exhibits "good" CF skills.

 

I don't know who you've been whatching in CF but it hasn't been Pierre.

 

You don't know what "tracking the ball" is, but you claim to know that Pierre makes bad starts on the ball? Come on.

 

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

[goonys evil twin]

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

You are quite wrong on all of your assumptions.