A-Ram update

[Magnetic Curses]

excuse me for saying it, but these are just words. this is exactly what people need to forget about when building a baseball team. in The Hidden Game of Baseball this is what's described as the "Music of the Spheres", and it seems you're hearing it loud and clear. admiring baseball and REALLY trying to understand it are 2 different things.

 

sure, all things being equal, you want the player with better peripherals, but that proves nothing.

 

baseball is in some ways very complicated, but in many ways it's very simple. given an equal pitching staff, i'll take my 8 mannys and take my chances against your 8 beltrans. over 162 games, i'll score more runs than you, and that's what counts.

 

The Beltran team probably would have won this year.

 

with an OPS .075 points lower? not likely.

 

EDIT: manny also had 6 more runs created in 60 less PA's.

[VanceJergins]

excuse me for saying it, but these are just words. this is exactly what people need to forget about when building a baseball team. in The Hidden Game of Baseball this is what's described as the "Music of the Spheres", and it seems you're hearing it loud and clear. admiring baseball and REALLY trying to understand it are 2 different things.

 

sure, all things being equal, you want the player with better peripherals, but that proves nothing.

 

baseball is in some ways very complicated, but in many ways it's very simple. given an equal pitching staff, i'll take my 8 mannys and take my chances against your 8 beltrans. over 162 games, i'll score more runs than you, and that's what counts.

 

The Beltran team probably would have won this year.

 

Beltran: .275/ .388/ .594

Manny: .321/ .439/ .619

 

The Manny team would have scored many more runs, but with this scenario are we talking 8 Manny's on defense too?.....Cause that would be ugly.

[goonys evil twin]

excuse me for saying it, but these are just words. this is exactly what people need to forget about when building a baseball team. in The Hidden Game of Baseball this is what's described as the "Music of the Spheres", and it seems you're hearing it loud and clear. admiring baseball and REALLY trying to understand it are 2 different things.

 

sure, all things being equal, you want the player with better peripherals, but that proves nothing.

 

baseball is in some ways very complicated, but in many ways it's very simple. given an equal pitching staff, i'll take my 8 mannys and take my chances against your 8 beltrans. over 162 games, i'll score more runs than you, and that's what counts.

 

The Beltran team probably would have won this year.

 

Beltran: .275/ .388/ .594

Manny: .321/ .439/ .619

 

The Manny team would have scored many more runs, but with this scenario are we talking 8 Manny's on defense too?.....Cause that would be ugly.

 

Yeah, it's the whole package, including 8 Manny's taking the last 6 weeks off.

 

 

Beltran's OPS+ equaled Manny's career OPS+ this year, although it was slightly behind Manny's 2006 OPS+, which was done in something like 100 fewer plate appearances.

[VanceJergins]

Ramirez will sign with the Yanks and then they will trade ARod. Jim didn't get it done in time.

 

Didnt get it done in time? How do you know Ramirez would have even talked before the season was over? How do you know Hendry didnt try? How did he not get it done in time when all the reports say he wants to resign and Hendry is already talking with his agent? Sorry, you're just not making very much sense.

[USSoccer]

What's being glossed over is that Beltran had the rep of being a major loafer when he was stuck in Kansas City. It's not like he's always been Charlie Hustle. It seems going to consistently winning teams made a difference for him... Edited October 10, 2006 by USSoccer

[Magnetic Curses]

excuse me for saying it, but these are just words. this is exactly what people need to forget about when building a baseball team. in The Hidden Game of Baseball this is what's described as the "Music of the Spheres", and it seems you're hearing it loud and clear. admiring baseball and REALLY trying to understand it are 2 different things.

 

sure, all things being equal, you want the player with better peripherals, but that proves nothing.

 

baseball is in some ways very complicated, but in many ways it's very simple. given an equal pitching staff, i'll take my 8 mannys and take my chances against your 8 beltrans. over 162 games, i'll score more runs than you, and that's what counts.

 

The Beltran team probably would have won this year.

 

Beltran: .275/ .388/ .594

Manny: .321/ .439/ .619

 

The Manny team would have scored many more runs, but with this scenario are we talking 8 Manny's on defense too?.....Cause that would be ugly.

 

Yeah, it's the whole package, including 8 Manny's taking the last 6 weeks off.

 

 

Beltran's OPS+ equaled Manny's career OPS+ this year, although it was slightly behind Manny's 2006 OPS+, which was done in something like 100 fewer plate appearances.

 

60, it appears that beltran took some time off as well.

[VanceJergins]

excuse me for saying it, but these are just words. this is exactly what people need to forget about when building a baseball team. in The Hidden Game of Baseball this is what's described as the "Music of the Spheres", and it seems you're hearing it loud and clear. admiring baseball and REALLY trying to understand it are 2 different things.

 

sure, all things being equal, you want the player with better peripherals, but that proves nothing.

 

baseball is in some ways very complicated, but in many ways it's very simple. given an equal pitching staff, i'll take my 8 mannys and take my chances against your 8 beltrans. over 162 games, i'll score more runs than you, and that's what counts.

 

The Beltran team probably would have won this year.

 

Beltran: .275/ .388/ .594

Manny: .321/ .439/ .619

 

The Manny team would have scored many more runs, but with this scenario are we talking 8 Manny's on defense too?.....Cause that would be ugly.

 

Yeah, it's the whole package, including 8 Manny's taking the last 6 weeks off.

 

 

Beltran's OPS+ equaled Manny's career OPS+ this year, although it was slightly behind Manny's 2006 OPS+, which was done in something like 100 fewer plate appearances.

 

Then you're right. Considering this is about hustle and such I should have realized we were talking about all aspects of each player. 8 headcases randomly demanding trades and taking days off wouldnt be ideal.

[Magnetic Curses]

What's being glossed over is that Beltran had the rep of being a major loafer when he was stuck in Kansas City. It's not like he's always been Charlie Hustle. It seems going to consistently winning teams made a difference for him...

 

goony's just arguing for the sake of arguing with me. he hates words that mean nothing just as much as i do.

[VanceJergins]

What's being glossed over is that Beltran had the rep of being a major loafer when he was stuck in Kansas City. It's not like he's always been Charlie Hustle. It seems going to consistently winning teams made a difference for him...

 

I think a team with 8 Beltrans would be a consistently winning team.....but I get your point.

[Magnetic Curses]

excuse me for saying it, but these are just words. this is exactly what people need to forget about when building a baseball team. in The Hidden Game of Baseball this is what's described as the "Music of the Spheres", and it seems you're hearing it loud and clear. admiring baseball and REALLY trying to understand it are 2 different things.

 

sure, all things being equal, you want the player with better peripherals, but that proves nothing.

 

baseball is in some ways very complicated, but in many ways it's very simple. given an equal pitching staff, i'll take my 8 mannys and take my chances against your 8 beltrans. over 162 games, i'll score more runs than you, and that's what counts.

 

The Beltran team probably would have won this year.

 

Beltran: .275/ .388/ .594

Manny: .321/ .439/ .619

 

The Manny team would have scored many more runs, but with this scenario are we talking 8 Manny's on defense too?.....Cause that would be ugly.

 

Yeah, it's the whole package, including 8 Manny's taking the last 6 weeks off.

 

 

Beltran's OPS+ equaled Manny's career OPS+ this year, although it was slightly behind Manny's 2006 OPS+, which was done in something like 100 fewer plate appearances.

 

Then you're right. Considering this is about hustle and such I should have realized we were talking about all aspects of each player. 8 headcases randomly demanding trades and taking days off wouldnt be ideal.

 

the discussion is figurative anyway. at 162 games and max production, i'd take a non-hustling manny-type over a "hustling" beltran-type, and so would goony, probably.

 

we got off on a tangent when goony decided to lead us into a more literal debate.

[Magnetic Curses]

What's being glossed over is that Beltran had the rep of being a major loafer when he was stuck in Kansas City. It's not like he's always been Charlie Hustle. It seems going to consistently winning teams made a difference for him...

 

I think a team with 8 Beltrans would be a consistently winning team.....but I get your point.

 

no doubt it would be a winning team, just not as winning as a team full of manny-types.

[USSoccer]

What's being glossed over is that Beltran had the rep of being a major loafer when he was stuck in Kansas City. It's not like he's always been Charlie Hustle. It seems going to consistently winning teams made a difference for him...

 

goony's just arguing for the sake of arguing with me. he hates words that mean nothing just as much as i do.

 

I was mostly re-responding to 'Cuse. I don't like how this "Aramis loafs" stuff gets tossed around like he walks backwards every time he hits a groundball. I especially don't like how people act like no other really good players occasionally have a lapse of hustle.

[VanceJergins]

excuse me for saying it, but these are just words. this is exactly what people need to forget about when building a baseball team. in The Hidden Game of Baseball this is what's described as the "Music of the Spheres", and it seems you're hearing it loud and clear. admiring baseball and REALLY trying to understand it are 2 different things.

 

sure, all things being equal, you want the player with better peripherals, but that proves nothing.

 

baseball is in some ways very complicated, but in many ways it's very simple. given an equal pitching staff, i'll take my 8 mannys and take my chances against your 8 beltrans. over 162 games, i'll score more runs than you, and that's what counts.

 

The Beltran team probably would have won this year.

 

Beltran: .275/ .388/ .594

Manny: .321/ .439/ .619

 

The Manny team would have scored many more runs, but with this scenario are we talking 8 Manny's on defense too?.....Cause that would be ugly.

 

Yeah, it's the whole package, including 8 Manny's taking the last 6 weeks off.

 

 

Beltran's OPS+ equaled Manny's career OPS+ this year, although it was slightly behind Manny's 2006 OPS+, which was done in something like 100 fewer plate appearances.

 

Then you're right. Considering this is about hustle and such I should have realized we were talking about all aspects of each player. 8 headcases randomly demanding trades and taking days off wouldnt be ideal.

 

the discussion is figurative anyway. at 162 games and max production, i'd take a non-hustling manny-type over a "hustling" beltran-type, and so would goony, probably.

 

we got off on a tangent when goony decided to lead us into a more literal debate.

 

After I took a second to think about it, he made me take this figurative argument way too literally without me even realizing it.....what a jerk.

[goonys evil twin]

What's being glossed over is that Beltran had the rep of being a major loafer when he was stuck in Kansas City. It's not like he's always been Charlie Hustle. It seems going to consistently winning teams made a difference for him...

 

goony's just arguing for the sake of arguing with me. he hates words that mean nothing just as much as i do.

 

I was mostly re-responding to 'Cuse. I don't like how this "Aramis loafs" stuff gets tossed around like he walks backwards every time he hits a groundball. I especially don't like how people act like no other really good players occasionally have a lapse of hustle.

 

That's what annoys me the most. We've gotten to the point where it's assumed Ramirez is a lazy bum on every play, and it's just a matter of whether we are willing to put up with it. It's not true. Over the course of 162 games, he occasionally gives a little less effort than you'd prefer. Cuse brought up the either/or black/white concept of wanting great loafers or hustling bums, when in fact the either/or, black/white comparison is not appropriate for comparing Ramirez with any hustling player. He's not a sloth. He's an extremely talented highly productive baseball player. And the Cubs desperately need as many of those that they can find.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I want a team of 8 Neifi's or 8 Ecksteins....hell, give me 8 Pierre's. Gamers, scrappers, and saviors! That's what I want! :D

[A New Era]

Could someone point me to the Aram thread?

[CuseCubFan69]

 

I think it's funny when it's either or. Let me ask this. Do you want Beltran or Manny? I'll take Beltran. Why, because he has talent and he hustles and knows the game. If Manny did the same things Beltran did I'd take him but he doesn't. I don't see why people always compare Manny to Neifi types when it comes to hustle vs talent.

 

I'll say this, I'll give you ARam as he is now and I'll take the one that stays in shape and hustles. I think staying in shape and doing the things you have to do to prolong your career is the direction all players should go.

 

Goony's right about talent, no doubt about it I want the best talent out there. But, when you're in a game and the kid that hits 250 beats out a grounder because the SS bobbles it with 2 outs and then your stud pops one out to win by one, you appreciate that hustle and he helped the team win because of it. No doubt, the kid that hits it out won the game with his homer, it would not have happened with out hustle. Almost all teams are not the Yankees and have 9 guys that hit 300 and can pop it out so you have to do that extra something sometimes to win a game. Sometimes the emotional, yes baseball with emotion, uplift of a diving catch can get a team out of it's mental phase that happens during baseball. That mental lift gives or brings a different focus for the team and also for the other team. I've had teams that hit line drives at people and the mental strain of that can be very draining at times. When you have a guy in CF dive and take away a sure double that team that has been hitting line drives and getting no rewards just sank a little farther. It's a tough mental game and that curve ball you sent out earlier with a line drive that was caught weighs a little more on your mind than it would if it fell. So if it's a either or question I'll take the hustling team over the one that doesn't if they both have the same or even a little worse talent for the hustlers.

 

'Cuse, Aramis stayed in shape this season. He had zero leg issues as far as we know. He improved defensively, and had two or three lapses of concentration where he loafed it out of the box. If it weren't for his reputation and for the team's struggles, I'd bet 90% of fans and media would never have noticed those two or three lapses.

 

He's not the lazy, indifferent guy that he's been made out to be over the last 6 months. He's the Cubs' best run producer. He's the best potential FA player in this offseason by far. The Cubs need him to be on the team for 2007, and if that means he'll loaf 1 PA out of 200, then I'll trade that for his production without hesitation.

 

I understand your points, and while ideally you'd like to match Ramirez's raw talent with, say, Theriot's hustle, sports doesn't work like that. You make tradeoffs. The tradeoff with Ramirez is one worth making.

 

I agree that Ramirez kept in shape and see what happened, he played the whole season. Will he continue this after he signs his next deal, I hope so if he's still a Cub. Yes, he is a productive player but my point is when he pulls a ball to the left corner and jogs to second and the left fielder is bobbling the ball I'd like to see him make it to third. This isn't just a rap on Ramirez but a lot of players that coast into second. In your eyes it seems to me you're happy with that because he might get hurt and in mine I'd like to see him standing at third. You may see that as a trade off but I see it as a player that doesn't hustle and take his game to the next level.

[goonys evil twin]

Yes, he is a productive player but my point is when he pulls a ball to the left corner and jogs to second and the left fielder is bobbling the ball I'd like to see him make it to third.

 

That is an odd desire to have for a guy. Especially since it's a very risky play, for health and baseball reasons.

 

The Cubs already play aggressive ball and it kills them. I'd rather they be less aggressive on the bases, where they simply run into too many outs.

Edited October 10, 2006 by goony's evil twin

[USSoccer]

 

I agree that Ramirez kept in shape and see what happened, he played the whole season. Will he continue this after he signs his next deal, I hope so if he's still a Cub. Yes, he is a productive player but my point is when he pulls a ball to the left corner and jogs to second and the left fielder is bobbling the ball I'd like to see him make it to third. This isn't just a rap on Ramirez but a lot of players that coast into second. In your eyes it seems to me you're happy with that because he might get hurt and in mine I'd like to see him standing at third. You may see that as a trade off but I see it as a player that doesn't hustle and take his game to the next level.

 

Ramirez had like 4 triples this season, by far a career high, IIRC. He had 38 doubles, 2 shy of a career high. Given that he's really, really slow, having that many triples is indicative of a guy who busted it around the bases more than just occasionally.

 

That's another flaw in this whole Ramirez thing-so much more weight is being given to the handlful of times he dogged it than for the times he ended up a third despite having a catcher's speed.

[Sammy Sofa]

A "hustling" Aramis is not going to get many, if any, more triples. He is simply not a "speed player," peak fitness or not.

 

I'm sorry, but given the type of hitter we're talking about, this is an asinine and pointless pipe dream. I know you mean well, but in the big picture this stuff is meaningless with these type of players. We're nitpicking one of the best 3rd basemen this team has ever had. Could he maybe do better if he got on a radical fitness program that allowed him to "hustle" more? Maybe. He might also make it around the bases better if they sew bottle rockets to his cleats. I simply do not see any honest reason for this kind of criticism.

[CuseCubFan69]

Yes, he is a productive player but my point is when he pulls a ball to the left corner and jogs to second and the left fielder is bobbling the ball I'd like to see him make it to third.

 

That is an odd desire to have for a guy. Especially since it's not a very risky play, for health and baseball reasons.

 

The Cubs already play aggressive ball and it kills them. I'd rather they be less aggressive on the bases, where they simply run into too many outs.

 

There's dumb aggressive and smart aggresive....I'm of the smart variety.

[CuseCubFan69]

A "hustling" Aramis is not going to get many, if any, more triples. He is simply not a "speed player," peak fitness or not.

 

I'm sorry, but given the type of hitter we're talking about, this is an asinine and pointless pipe dream. I know you mean well, but in the big picture this stuff is meaningless with these type of players. We're nitpicking one of the best 3rd basemen this team has ever had. Could he maybe do better if he got on a radical fitness program that allowed him to "hustle" more? Maybe. He might also make it around the bases better if they sew bottle rockets to his cleats. I simply do not see any honest reason for this kind of criticism.

 

I agree it's nitpicking 100%. I know he's not a speed player but some of the best baserunners I have ever seen haven't been speed players.

[CubinNY]

Maybe. He might also make it around the bases better if they sew bottle rockets to his cleats. I simply do not see any honest reason for this kind of criticism.

I like that idea! They could also have flames shoot out too. That would be awesome

[goonys evil twin]

Yes, he is a productive player but my point is when he pulls a ball to the left corner and jogs to second and the left fielder is bobbling the ball I'd like to see him make it to third.

 

That is an odd desire to have for a guy. Especially since it's not a very risky play, for health and baseball reasons.

 

The Cubs already play aggressive ball and it kills them. I'd rather they be less aggressive on the bases, where they simply run into too many outs.

 

There's dumb aggressive and smart aggresive....I'm of the smart variety.

 

Yeah, it's nice to talk about it, but it's much harder to impliment, especially with slow guys. This nit-picking (Aramis doesn't leg out enough triples?) is baffling, and leads nowhere. I don't think much of tangotiger's poll of fans about defense, but somebody in there wrote something that made a lot of sense, about the need to stop focusing on every last negative, and appreciating the good. Aramis is a great 3rd baseman. You will have to work really hard to get a better one, and even harder to get that player as well as signficantly improve the team from what it already is. I understand the romantic notion of every player taking the extra base whenever possible. But it's absurd to expect it, or criticize a player on your team for not doing it, when all you are going to get from a potential replacement is more of the same. It's like complaining about guys who strikeout too much even though they produce. Sure, the ideal player never strikes out, but ideal is unrealistic.

[goonys evil twin]

A "hustling" Aramis is not going to get many, if any, more triples. He is simply not a "speed player," peak fitness or not.

 

I'm sorry, but given the type of hitter we're talking about, this is an asinine and pointless pipe dream. I know you mean well, but in the big picture this stuff is meaningless with these type of players. We're nitpicking one of the best 3rd basemen this team has ever had. Could he maybe do better if he got on a radical fitness program that allowed him to "hustle" more? Maybe. He might also make it around the bases better if they sew bottle rockets to his cleats. I simply do not see any honest reason for this kind of criticism.

 

I agree it's nitpicking 100%. I know he's not a speed player but some of the best baserunners I have ever seen haven't been speed players.

 

They've been faster than Aramis.