Durham Massacre

[NCCubFan]

After the humiliating events affecting the Durham Bulls, Tampa Bay's AAA team (Young, Dukes, Upton), the Devil Rays completely cleaned house. They fired Durham's manager, pitching coach, hitting coach, and trainer.

 

What a unique concept: Zero tolerance for nonsense, holding people accountable, and firing en masse if appropriate. The Cubs could learn something by studying this case. :D

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Devil Rays Fire Durham Staff

[NCCubFan]

Thanks for posting the link; I'd actually read about it as local coverage in my newspaper, not from a web site.

 

The ousted pitching coach and hitting coach both played for the Cubs in their careers. Hebner, in fact, I believe was a key player off the bench in the 1984 season.

[Chris]

Interesting.

[TruffleShuffle]

What a unique concept: Zero tolerance for nonsense, holding people accountable, and firing en masse if appropriate. The Cubs could learn something by studying this case. :D

 

I think the situations are very dissimilar. The Cubs should fire their manager and front office because the product on the field is a joke. The D-Rays are more concerned with their player development, which apparently wasn't too great, considering the three best prospects there had major non-baseball problems this year.

[NCCubFan]

I think the situations are very dissimilar. The Cubs should fire their manager and front office because the product on the field is a joke. The D-Rays are more concerned with their player development, which apparently wasn't too great, considering the three best prospects there had major non-baseball problems this year.

I agree the situations are different; I just meant it was an example of a team showing a willingness to make drastic changes, something the Cubs aren't willing to do. The fact that the reasons necessitating the changes are different doesn't take away from the fact that one organization will make changes while one won't.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Sucks to be those coaches. I'd be really upset if I were them.

[Laura]

I think the situations are very dissimilar. The Cubs should fire their manager and front office because the product on the field is a joke. The D-Rays are more concerned with their player development, which apparently wasn't too great, considering the three best prospects there had major non-baseball problems this year.

 

I'm not sure how much that had to do with player development.

 

Their non-baseball problems were known before they were drafted. It's fine to draft them anyway based on their baseball talent ... but I'm not sure that holding people who are charged with player development responsible for off-field problems is really holding the right people accountable.

 

If you're going to invest in kids with off-field problems, then you should be willing to invest in people who can deal with off-field problems.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I think the situations are very dissimilar. The Cubs should fire their manager and front office because the product on the field is a joke. The D-Rays are more concerned with their player development, which apparently wasn't too great, considering the three best prospects there had major non-baseball problems this year.

 

I'm not sure how much that had to do with player development.

 

Their non-baseball problems were known before they were drafted. It's fine to draft them anyway based on their baseball talent ... but I'm not sure that holding people who are charged with player development responsible for off-field problems is really holding the right people accountable.

 

If you're going to invest in kids with off-field problems, then you should be willing to invest in people who can deal with off-field problems.

 

To be fair, I'm not sure there was much, if any knowledge of off-field problems for BJ Upton until the DUI this season.

[Jehrico]

Sucks to be those coaches. I'd be really upset if I were them.

If they really were good coaches, they'll land on their feet. There's lots of off-season instruction in the fall between Mesa, surely other teams would look at picking them up. The success rate of many of the D-Rays upper level prospects means they have to be doing something right as far as player development goes.

[Jehrico]

I think the situations are very dissimilar. The Cubs should fire their manager and front office because the product on the field is a joke. The D-Rays are more concerned with their player development, which apparently wasn't too great, considering the three best prospects there had major non-baseball problems this year.

I agree the situations are different; I just meant it was an example of a team showing a willingness to make drastic changes, something the Cubs aren't willing to do. The fact that the reasons necessitating the changes are different doesn't take away from the fact that one organization will make changes while one won't.

This is a tricky one. I agree with the concept that one of our problems over the last 20 years has been the lack of stability in the organization. However, they're taking that to such an extreme now that they're overlooking the basic fundamentals accountability and responsibility. Tough line to balance in the Cubs case in particular. Considering all of the youth that we'll have locked up for awhile, I'd be all for making drastic changes this offseason, then shoot for stability.

[goonys evil twin]

This is a tricky one. I agree with the concept that one of our problems over the last 20 years has been the lack of stability in the organization.

 

I don't agree with that concept. Andy's regime has been in charge for well over half of those 20 years. Hendry has been a main cog for 10+ years. Stability is not the issue. This franchise has been one of the most stable in recent years, and it's achieved nothing. How many teams have had the same GM and manager combo the past 4 years? Everybody likes to talk about the number of managers, but that's really just because of all the interim guys they've had.

 

The Cubs have basically had 3 managers over the past 12 years. That's not incredible turnover. The White Sox, Dodgers and Red Sox have seen similar, or more turnover. Heck, Boston's been one of the most dysfunctional franchises out there, and have had a great deal more success than the Cubs. Florida has had nothing but turnover and upheaval, from ownership all the way through the front office and the field. The Mets have lacked stability, but they've had some pretty solid success.

 

Atlanta is everybody's model for stability, but they've won every year. It's easy to keep the same leaders when they do nothing but succeed. The Yankees have been stable, but they are all threatened with job loss without winning the world series. And STL has been pretty stable as well.

 

But those are about the only franchises in baseball that have been more stable than the Cubs, since Andy took over. The late 80's and early 90's were pretty unstable times for the Cubs. But that has changed quite a bit. The team is pretty stable, and has been for quite a while. Aside from being in a position where they can recover from this failure if they make the right decisions. stability hasn't brought much in terms of results.

 

The Cubs need a shakeup, whether that's the GM making massive changes, or ownership cleaning house from up top.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I thought this thread was going to be about someone killing Ray Durham.

[Jehrico]

This is a tricky one. I agree with the concept that one of our problems over the last 20 years has been the lack of stability in the organization.

 

I don't agree with that concept. Andy's regime has been in charge for well over half of those 20 years. Hendry has been a main cog for 10+ years. Stability is not the issue. This franchise has been one of the most stable in recent years, and it's achieved nothing. How many teams have had the same GM and manager combo the past 4 years? Everybody likes to talk about the number of managers, but that's really just because of all the interim guys they've had.

 

The Cubs have basically had 3 managers over the past 12 years. That's not incredible turnover. The White Sox, Dodgers and Red Sox have seen similar, or more turnover. Heck, Boston's been one of the most dysfunctional franchises out there, and have had a great deal more success than the Cubs. Florida has had nothing but turnover and upheaval, from ownership all the way through the front office and the field. The Mets have lacked stability, but they've had some pretty solid success.

 

Atlanta is everybody's model for stability, but they've won every year. It's easy to keep the same leaders when they do nothing but succeed. The Yankees have been stable, but they are all threatened with job loss without winning the world series. And STL has been pretty stable as well.

 

But those are about the only franchises in baseball that have been more stable than the Cubs, since Andy took over. The late 80's and early 90's were pretty unstable times for the Cubs. But that has changed quite a bit. The team is pretty stable, and has been for quite a while. Aside from being in a position where they can recover from this failure if they make the right decisions. stability hasn't brought much in terms of results.

 

The Cubs need a shakeup, whether that's the GM making massive changes, or ownership cleaning house from up top.

For the record, I didn't mean to suggest that we stink because of a lack of stability. There are certain systemic ills in the organization that I would like to see stabilized, once they get competent people in. Andy has been here for awhile now, but it's been a merry-go-round of coaches down on the field the last 20 years prior to Dusty's reign of terror. That merry-go-round is something that I'd like to not see again (assuming we get new coaches who have a sound philosophy to preach while they're here). Andy doesn't teach, coach, hit, throw, or anything else, so I don't count him as part of any stability or lack thereof.

[goonys evil twin]

For the record, I didn't mean to suggest that we stink because of a lack of stability. There are certain systemic ills in the organization that I would like to see stabilized, once they get competent people in. Andy has been here for awhile now, but it's been a merry-go-round of coaches down on the field the last 20 years prior to Dusty's reign of terror. That merry-go-round is something that I'd like to not see again (assuming we get new coaches who have a sound philosophy to preach while they're here). Andy doesn't teach, coach, hit, throw, or anything else, so I don't count him as part of any stability or lack thereof.

 

But the question is, how many other teams have had more stable coaching regimes? Baker has had basically the same staff for 4 years. Rothschild has been here for 5 years and the results keep getting worse. The Cubs have a stable staff, and have been pretty stable ever since Andy took over, and it hasn't helped.