Walker

[Sammy Sofa]

Man...if only Lee had been here for those months.

[Roast]

But guys,

 

Pierre is FAST, duh.

[Fred Hornkohl]

.336 OBP is not pretty darn good for a leadoff hitter.

 

That's true. The .355 figure that I quoted would rank, in my opinion, in the low end of what is acceptable for lead off, don't you think ?

[Roast]

.336 OBP is not pretty darn good for a leadoff hitter.

 

That's true. The .355 figure that I quoted would rank, in my opinion, in the low end of what is acceptable for lead off, don't you think ?

 

True. But saying that when pierre is "on fire" he ranks at the low end of what is acceptable for his postion is a knock against him in itself.

[NewUserName]

Pierre at best is a below average fielding CFer who puts up a couple of decent looking offensive stats. Honestly he is Omar Moreno. Yes the Pirates won in 79 with Moreno but that doesnt change the fact that Moreno wasnt very good. Cub fans for years have looked at players who work hard, hustle some, nice to the media and put up a decent BA or something and way overrate them. Worse of all some bad GM (his initials are probably JH) is going to give Pierre 8-9 million for 3 seasons.

 

 

My all-time "Juan Pierre" team. Hard working players who put up 1 or 2 good stats but were way overrated by a lot of Cub fans

 

Juan Pierre CF

Glenn Beckertt 2b

Bill Buckner 1b

Keith Moreland RF

Jose Cardinal lf

Jose Hernandez 3b

Joe Giradi C

Larry Bowa SS

Greg Maddux (2nd stint) P

 

Third base was really hard. I wanted Bill Madlock because he was overrated. However I wouldnt have called him a fan favorite though.

Yes these guys are all gamers. Mostly worked hard and really were not as good as a lot of fans thought.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

Pierre at best is a below average fielding CFer who puts up a couple of decent looking offensive stats. Honestly he is Omar Moreno. Yes the Pirates won in 79 with Moreno but that doesnt change the fact that Moreno wasnt very good. Cub fans for years have looked at players who work hard, hustle some, nice to the media and put up a decent BA or something and way overrate them. Worse of all some bad GM (his initials are probably JH) is going to give Pierre 8-9 million for 3 seasons.

 

 

My all-time "Juan Pierre" team. Hard working players who put up 1 or 2 good stats but were way overrated by a lot of Cub fans

 

Juan Pierre CF

Glenn Beckertt 2b

Bill Buckner 1b

Keith Moreland RF

Jose Cardinal lf

Jose Hernandez 3b

Joe Giradi C

Larry Bowa SS

Greg Maddux (2nd stint) P

 

Third base was really hard. I wanted Bill Madlock because he was overrated. However I wouldnt have called him a fan favorite though.

Yes these guys are all gamers. Mostly worked hard and really were not as good as a lot of fans thought.

 

Was Larry Bowa well-received as a Cub? I couldn't stand him. I didn't think he was much of a fan favorite, but I could be wrong considering I was just a kid when he played.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Pierre at best is a below average fielding CFer who puts up a couple of decent looking offensive stats. Honestly he is Omar Moreno. Yes the Pirates won in 79 with Moreno but that doesnt change the fact that Moreno wasnt very good. Cub fans for years have looked at players who work hard, hustle some, nice to the media and put up a decent BA or something and way overrate them. Worse of all some bad GM (his initials are probably JH) is going to give Pierre 8-9 million for 3 seasons.

 

 

My all-time "Juan Pierre" team. Hard working players who put up 1 or 2 good stats but were way overrated by a lot of Cub fans

 

Juan Pierre CF

Glenn Beckertt 2b

Bill Buckner 1b

Keith Moreland RF

Jose Cardinal lf

Jose Hernandez 3b

Joe Giradi C

Larry Bowa SS

Greg Maddux (2nd stint) P

 

Third base was really hard. I wanted Bill Madlock because he was overrated. However I wouldnt have called him a fan favorite though.

Yes these guys are all gamers. Mostly worked hard and really were not as good as a lot of fans thought.

 

Was Larry Bowa well-received as a Cub? I couldn't stand him. I didn't think he was much of a fan favorite, but I could be wrong considering I was just a kid when he played.

 

Shawon Dunston would have been my choice.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I purposefully DON'T look at month by month stats. Months are completely arbitrary and incorrigible. Players don't start and/or stop playing well by the turn of a page on a calendar. When you limit your time series analysis to month by month statistics, chances are you will end with a very distorted picture of what's going on.

 

Whatever timeframe you want to separate by, it's pretty clear that there was a stretch that he was on fire, coupled by mediocre to okay play, with awful play at the beginning of the year. That's the point, that the sample you used contained stretches of okay/great/mediocre, and that aside from that great stretch(which happened to be about a 4 week stretch) he's been a poor offensive player.

[rocket]

Pierre at best is a below average fielding CFer who puts up a couple of decent looking offensive stats. Honestly he is Omar Moreno. Yes the Pirates won in 79 with Moreno but that doesnt change the fact that Moreno wasnt very good. Cub fans for years have looked at players who work hard, hustle some, nice to the media and put up a decent BA or something and way overrate them. Worse of all some bad GM (his initials are probably JH) is going to give Pierre 8-9 million for 3 seasons.

 

 

My all-time "Juan Pierre" team. Hard working players who put up 1 or 2 good stats but were way overrated by a lot of Cub fans

 

Juan Pierre CF

Glenn Beckertt 2b

Bill Buckner 1b

Keith Moreland RF

Jose Cardinal lf

Jose Hernandez 3b

Joe Giradi C

Larry Bowa SS

Greg Maddux (2nd stint) P

 

Third base was really hard. I wanted Bill Madlock because he was overrated. However I wouldnt have called him a fan favorite though.

Yes these guys are all gamers. Mostly worked hard and really were not as good as a lot of fans thought.

 

Was Larry Bowa well-received as a Cub? I couldn't stand him. I didn't think he was much of a fan favorite, but I could be wrong considering I was just a kid when he played.

 

and when the hell did anyone like jose hernandez?

[NewUserName]

I said 3rd base was hard. Maybe Gary Gaetti would have been a better choice. Dunston would probably be a good choice at SS except he was probably the best defensive SS in baseball for a couple of years. yeah yeah he made alot of errors and didnt have a good fielding Percentage. He got to more balls than any other SS that I have ever seen though before he got hurt. I do believe he had a range factor of over 7 a couple of years.

[Fred Hornkohl]

.336 OBP is not pretty darn good for a leadoff hitter.

 

That's true. The .355 figure that I quoted would rank, in my opinion, in the low end of what is acceptable for lead off, don't you think ?

 

True. But saying that when pierre is "on fire" he ranks at the low end of what is acceptable for his postion is a knock against him in itself.

 

I would hardly call .005 over your career average being on fire.

[Fred Hornkohl]

I purposefully DON'T look at month by month stats. Months are completely arbitrary and incorrigible. Players don't start and/or stop playing well by the turn of a page on a calendar. When you limit your time series analysis to month by month statistics, chances are you will end with a very distorted picture of what's going on.

 

Whatever timeframe you want to separate by, it's pretty clear that there was a stretch that he was on fire, coupled by mediocre to okay play, with awful play at the beginning of the year. That's the point, that the sample you used contained stretches of okay/great/mediocre, and that aside from that great stretch(which happened to be about a 4 week stretch) he's been a poor offensive player.

 

That's your whole Macias argument all over again. "Take away that weekend in San Diego...............". But you've never explained the rationale behind discounting a positive outlier, but not the negative outlier whenever you don't like the guy.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I purposefully DON'T look at month by month stats. Months are completely arbitrary and incorrigible. Players don't start and/or stop playing well by the turn of a page on a calendar. When you limit your time series analysis to month by month statistics, chances are you will end with a very distorted picture of what's going on.

 

Whatever timeframe you want to separate by, it's pretty clear that there was a stretch that he was on fire, coupled by mediocre to okay play, with awful play at the beginning of the year. That's the point, that the sample you used contained stretches of okay/great/mediocre, and that aside from that great stretch(which happened to be about a 4 week stretch) he's been a poor offensive player.

 

That's your whole Macias argument all over again. "Take away that weekend in San Diego...............". But you've never explained the rationale behind discounting a positive outlier, but not the negative outlier whenever you don't like the guy.

 

Because in each of those cases the negative outlier is much closer to the norm. Macias has been garbage his whole life(and the SD thing was more a tribute to how his small number of AB's was easily skewed), and Pierre hasn't been "good"(in quotations because Pierre at his best is still not spectacular, but a worthwhile leadoff hitter) since the Cubs were last a winning team.

 

Also, it was someone else than me that was claiming Pierre had made some sort of adjustment and had used a long period of time as justification. It's worth pointing out that when you isolate his hot streak from the beginning of the time in question, it shows that Pierre's improvement is more of just that, a hot streak, than an adjustment that has led to a consistent, marked improvement.

[Fred Hornkohl]

 

Because in each of those cases the negative outlier is much closer to the norm. Macias has been garbage his whole life(and the SD thing was more a tribute to how his small number of AB's was easily skewed), and Pierre hasn't been "good"(in quotations because Pierre at his best is still not spectacular, but a worthwhile leadoff hitter) since the Cubs were last a winning team.

 

Also, it was someone else than me that was claiming Pierre had made some sort of adjustment and had used a long period of time as justification. It's worth pointing out that when you isolate his hot streak from the beginning of the time in question, it shows that Pierre's improvement is more of just that, a hot streak, than an adjustment that has led to a consistent, marked improvement.

 

Do you really think that this outlier........

 

Pierre             AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/03 - 05/18     166   22   38    6    2    0   48    2    8   16  0.229  0.269  0.289  0.558

 

is closer to Pierre's career norm than ........

 

Pierre             AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
06/27 - 08/05     149   20   51   12    5    1   76   11   10    6  0.342  0.389  0.510  0.899

 

this one ??

[neely crenshaw]

i say this all the time but here goes again. the problem is not with particular players. pierre is doing exactly what we hoped for. he is above his down year and below his best years. he is ok not great and not cpatt leading off either. this goes for jones also. he is doing as well as we could hope. right at his career averages.

the problem is that they should both be complementary players not the studs. i think we would be just fine with either of them if we had picked up a stud power hitter. if we followed pierre with dlee, aram and manny rameriz...he would probably score almost every time he was on.instead he is followed by aram,nevin,barrett, jones or mabry

the problem isn't pierre...it's the team that hendry put around him.

remember in florida in his heydey..he was followed by pudge-who was automatic in 2003, cabrera ,lowell ,conine, dlee....that certainly helped his value.

we could live with pierre..but we can not if we keep this lineup as is.

[CubColtPacer]

i say this all the time but here goes again. the problem is not with particular players. pierre is doing exactly what we hoped for. he is above his down year and below his best years. he is ok not great and not cpatt leading off either. this goes for jones also. he is doing as well as we could hope. right at his career averages.

the problem is that they should both be complementary players not the studs. i think we would be just fine with either of them if we had picked up a stud power hitter. if we followed pierre with dlee, aram and manny rameriz...he would probably score almost every time he was on.instead he is followed by aram,nevin,barrett, jones or mabry

the problem isn't pierre...it's the team that hendry put around him.

remember in florida in his heydey..he was followed by pudge-who was automatic in 2003, cabrera ,lowell ,conine, dlee....that certainly helped his value.

we could live with pierre..but we can not if we keep this lineup as is.

 

Agreed-which is why we can't pay him 8-10 million dollars. He is a role player that has value in his purpose around the rest of the team, but 8-10 million is the money you need to be reserving for your stars, and Pierre would be way overpaid for that type of money. Since a team is going to offer him that much, that's why we offer him arbitration, hope he declines and signs elsewhere. Even though I fully expect he'll have a better year next year than this year, it is simply not worth it to sign him to a long-term deal whatsoever.

Jones I have much less of a problem with-only because he is one of the cheapest right fielders in the league that has already been in free agency, and he is performing a little above the contract he has received (compared to other right fielders-they are an expensive bunch). I woud have rather put the big bucks star in right field, but Jones is doing what he is supposed to do-he is a good role player making role player money for right field.

[neely crenshaw]

absolutely!

unfortunately i see hendry dropping at least the 6 mil he makes now on him.

rememeber this the guy that outbid himself for the likes of jones, neifi and rusch...there is a serious chance we overpay for pierre!