Cesar has a sore hamstring

[Laura]

We might not see him Friday.

 

Cubs.com[/url]"]

Shortstop Cesar Izturis may not play because of a sore right hamstring. The 18-inning game Tuesday didn't help.

 

I'm disappointed, since I'll be going to the next two games (circumstances beyond my control) and, after what I've heard from Cesar-fans, I've been hoping to see his Mikhail-Baryshnikov-like moves out there!

 

Instead, I guess I'll get to see Neifi batting 2nd and playing SS.

[chuckywang]

His 4-8 performance certainly didn't give any indications of that.

[Laura]

That's what the latest cubs.com has to say. Maybe it's not accurate.

[DiamondMind]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

[Tracer Bullet]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

 

When we're paying his contract for a .600 OPS next year, I don't think I'll agree.

[DiamondMind]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

 

When we're paying his contract for a .600 OPS next year, I don't think I'll agree.

 

What is the continual fascination with a 4M contract on a behemoth organization like the Cubs?

 

Besides, what you want up the middle (C, 2B, SS, CF) is defense defense defense behind a solid pitching staff. Corner OF and corner IF are positions to produce your offense. I'm certainly not saying a .600 OPS is acceptable from anyone, but if he has the luxury of hitting 7th or 8th in the 2007 lineup, it's totally acceptable with his Gold Glove defense. Honestly, I'm more concerned about Cedeno.

[fromthestretch]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

 

When we're paying his contract for a .600 OPS next year, I don't think I'll agree.

 

What is the continual fascination with a 4M contract on a behemoth organization like the Cubs?

 

Besides, what you want up the middle (C, 2B, SS, CF) is defense defense defense behind a solid pitching staff. Corner OF and corner IF are positions to produce your offense. I'm certainly not saying a .600 OPS is acceptable from anyone, but if he has the luxury of hitting 7th or 8th in the 2007 lineup, it's totally acceptable with his Gold Glove defense. Honestly, I'm more concerned about Cedeno.

 

I think the concern with the money is that it could be better spent elsewhere. You take his $4 million plus Neifi's $2.5 million plus Rusch's $2.75 million, and all of a sudden you have a decent chunk of change to use towards a decent hitter. The fact that a team has money to spend doesn't mean that team should throw it away on mediocrity.

 

And while having good defense is nice and everything, you can't completely ignore having any offense from those positions when the corner outfield spots aren't producing consistently.

[wastra]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

 

When we're paying his contract for a .600 OPS next year, I don't think I'll agree.

 

What is the continual fascination with a 4M contract on a behemoth organization like the Cubs?

 

Besides, what you want up the middle (C, 2B, SS, CF) is defense defense defense behind a solid pitching staff. Corner OF and corner IF are positions to produce your offense. I'm certainly not saying a .600 OPS is acceptable from anyone, but if he has the luxury of hitting 7th or 8th in the 2007 lineup, it's totally acceptable with his Gold Glove defense. Honestly, I'm more concerned about Cedeno.

 

 

I'd rather have an average defensive shortstop who can hit like an average player or better. stellar defense is entirely overrated when it's in lieu of even marginal hitting.

[DiamondMind]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

 

When we're paying his contract for a .600 OPS next year, I don't think I'll agree.

 

What is the continual fascination with a 4M contract on a behemoth organization like the Cubs?

 

Besides, what you want up the middle (C, 2B, SS, CF) is defense defense defense behind a solid pitching staff. Corner OF and corner IF are positions to produce your offense. I'm certainly not saying a .600 OPS is acceptable from anyone, but if he has the luxury of hitting 7th or 8th in the 2007 lineup, it's totally acceptable with his Gold Glove defense. Honestly, I'm more concerned about Cedeno.

 

I think the concern with the money is that it could be better spent elsewhere. You take his $4 million plus Neifi's $2.5 million plus Rusch's $2.75 million, and all of a sudden you have a decent chunk of change to use towards a decent hitter. The fact that a team has money to spend doesn't mean that team should throw it away on mediocrity.

 

And while having good defense is nice and everything, you can't completely ignore having any offense from those positions when the corner outfield spots aren't producing consistently.

 

I appreciate your opinion and see where you're coming from.

 

You can't hold Rusch and Neifi (and I guess Hendry) at fault for Izturis' contract, though. 4M for a GG SS isn't bad.

[DiamondMind]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

 

When we're paying his contract for a .600 OPS next year, I don't think I'll agree.

 

What is the continual fascination with a 4M contract on a behemoth organization like the Cubs?

 

Besides, what you want up the middle (C, 2B, SS, CF) is defense defense defense behind a solid pitching staff. Corner OF and corner IF are positions to produce your offense. I'm certainly not saying a .600 OPS is acceptable from anyone, but if he has the luxury of hitting 7th or 8th in the 2007 lineup, it's totally acceptable with his Gold Glove defense. Honestly, I'm more concerned about Cedeno.

 

 

I'd rather have an average defensive shortstop who can hit like an average player or better. stellar defense is entirely overrated when it's in lieu of even marginal hitting.

 

Stellar defense is what wins games assuming you have a good pitching staff that is heavy on strikeouts and ground balls. Assuming the Cubs are healthy, Izturis and Cedeno up the middle (IMHO) will save many more runs than their marginal offense will cost. The problem is the Cubs lack of offense in the corner OF, not 2B/SS.

[CubColtPacer]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

 

When we're paying his contract for a .600 OPS next year, I don't think I'll agree.

 

Isn't that a bit overstating it there? From his last 3 years and splits, he is likely to at least be at 650 OPS next year, and possibly better. Still not good at all of course (and I expect more out of him, but it's a longer explanation why) but when the median shortstop has a 740 OPS, it's a lot better to be a 650+ OPS then to be a 600 OPS. 2005 was the only year in the last 3 that he didn't reach that number, and if you look at his splits where he was playing hurt (same as that you have to throw out Lee's numbers this year because half of the time he played he was playing hurt) Cesar's numbers are well over 650 for 2005 also.

[DiamondMind]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

 

When we're paying his contract for a .600 OPS next year, I don't think I'll agree.

 

Isn't that a bit overstating it there? From his last 3 years and splits, he is likely to at least be at 650 OPS next year, and possibly better. Still not good at all of course (and I expect more out of him, but it's a longer explanation why) but when the median shortstop has a 740 OPS, it's a lot better to be a 650+ OPS then to be a 600 OPS. 2005 was the only year in the last 3 that he didn't reach that number, and if you look at his splits where he was playing hurt (same as that you have to throw out Lee's numbers this year because half of the time he played he was playing hurt) Cesar's numbers are well over 650 for 2005 also.

 

Agreed. And again, he's providing top notch defense with the ability to make contact in any count to help with situational hitting depending on his lineup slot.

[stitchface]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

 

When we're paying his contract for a .600 OPS next year, I don't think I'll agree.

 

What is the continual fascination with a 4M contract on a behemoth organization like the Cubs?

 

Besides, what you want up the middle (C, 2B, SS, CF) is defense defense defense behind a solid pitching staff. Corner OF and corner IF are positions to produce your offense. I'm certainly not saying a .600 OPS is acceptable from anyone, but if he has the luxury of hitting 7th or 8th in the 2007 lineup, it's totally acceptable with his Gold Glove defense. Honestly, I'm more concerned about Cedeno.

 

 

I'd rather have an average defensive shortstop who can hit like an average player or better. stellar defense is entirely overrated when it's in lieu of even marginal hitting.

 

Stellar defense is what wins games assuming you have a good pitching staff that is heavy on strikeouts and ground balls. Assuming the Cubs are healthy, Izturis and Cedeno up the middle (IMHO) will save many more runs than their marginal offense will cost. The problem is the Cubs lack of offense in the corner OF, not 2B/SS.

 

no, their defense won't save more runs than their lack of offense costs. the cubs problem is lack of offense - there is no reason to accept overpaid subpar performance from any position.

[fromthestretch]

[i think the concern with the money is that it could be better spent elsewhere. You take his $4 million plus Neifi's $2.5 million plus Rusch's $2.75 million, and all of a sudden you have a decent chunk of change to use towards a decent hitter. The fact that a team has money to spend doesn't mean that team should throw it away on mediocrity.

 

And while having good defense is nice and everything, you can't completely ignore having any offense from those positions when the corner outfield spots aren't producing consistently.

 

I appreciate your opinion and see where you're coming from.

 

You can't hold Rusch and Neifi (and I guess Hendry) at fault for Izturis' contract, though. 4M for a GG SS isn't bad.

 

I don't hold Neifi and Rusch responsible. They were offered money and they took it. More power to them. But we can definitely hold Hendry at fault for their contracts and Cesar's, considering he took on that contract in a trade. In my opinion, $4 million for a shortshop who provides nothing offesively is bad, regardless of the defense he provides. Theriot can give the Cubs a quality reserve infielder at a fraction of Neifi's cost. There are countless left-handers that could outperform Rusch for at or near league minimum. With Cedeno's age and pricetag, I'd rather stick him at short next year and see if he develops rather than wasting money on the worst of the two Izturis brothers. Izturis might be an upgrade defensively, but at the moment, he's pretty much a lateral move offensively and could be a downgrade if Cedeno improves with some experience.

[DiamondMind]

 

no, their defense won't save more runs than their lack of offense costs. the cubs problem is lack of offense - there is no reason to accept overpaid subpar performance from any position.

 

Respectfully disagree - the Cubs problem is not a general lack of offense, but lack of offense from the corner positions. Murton and Jones are both 4th OF in my opinion, Ramirez had a terrible first half, and Lee has been disabled for most of the season.

[abuck1220]

gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove!

[fromthestretch]

I'm skeptical of his long term offensive production, especially hitting high in the order, but he has been serviceable if not more so to this point. Getting him in a trade for Maddux when we're not in a pennant race isn't too shabby as well.

 

When we're paying his contract for a .600 OPS next year, I don't think I'll agree.

 

Isn't that a bit overstating it there? From his last 3 years and splits, he is likely to at least be at 650 OPS next year, and possibly better. Still not good at all of course (and I expect more out of him, but it's a longer explanation why) but when the median shortstop has a 740 OPS, it's a lot better to be a 650+ OPS then to be a 600 OPS. 2005 was the only year in the last 3 that he didn't reach that number, and if you look at his splits where he was playing hurt (same as that you have to throw out Lee's numbers this year because half of the time he played he was playing hurt) Cesar's numbers are well over 650 for 2005 also.

 

Agreed. And again, he's providing top notch defense with the ability to make contact in any count to help with situational hitting depending on his lineup slot.

 

Neifi makes contact, too. Weak contact like Izturis. Neifi's great contact hitting helped him ground into 22 double plays last season.

 

No one is arguing that Izturis is bad defensively. But his defense isn't good enough to make up for his complete lack of production offensively and the lack of production the Cubs are getting at other positions.

 

If the Cubs had a much stronger lineup next year, they could afford to have a guy like Izturis playing everyday. However, that would require signifcant upgrades to at least two of the three outfield spots, a healthy Derrek Lee, Barrett continuing to hit, and Ramirez heating up sometime before June.

[DiamondMind]

gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove!

 

Sarcasm or not, I'm in the camp of in any sport, defense wins championships.

[DiamondMind]

 

Neifi makes contact, too. Weak contact like Izturis. Neifi's great contact hitting helped him ground into 22 double plays last season.

 

No one is arguing that Izturis is bad defensively. But his defense isn't good enough to make up for his complete lack of production offensively and the lack of production the Cubs are getting at other positions.

 

If the Cubs had a much stronger lineup next year, they could afford to have a guy like Izturis playing everyday. However, that would require signifcant upgrades to at least two of the three outfield spots, a healthy Derrek Lee, Barrett continuing to hit, and Ramirez heating up sometime before June.

 

Can't argue with the Neifi part, as I see your position.

 

However, what can really be said about the 2007 Cubs? Who knows who they'll sign or trade. Hopefully they have some brains and realize the complete lack of patience at the plate and power production in general.

[abuck1220]

gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove!

 

Sarcasm or not, I'm in the camp of in any sport, defense wins championships.

 

if you repeat gold glove! 100 times the award actually takes on meaning and value. it's a trick jim hendry taught me.

 

oh, and defense doesn't win championships in baseball.

[nick23]

gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove!

 

Sarcasm or not, I'm in the camp of in any sport, defense wins championships.

 

Unfortunately, our GM and manager are also in that camp.

[DiamondMind]

 

oh, and defense doesn't win championships in baseball.

 

What does? Sabrmetrics?

[DiamondMind]

gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove!

 

Sarcasm or not, I'm in the camp of in any sport, defense wins championships.

 

Unfortunately, our GM and manager are also in that camp.

 

And we'll see where it leads. 2006 isn't a fair gauge of the plan's success due to excessive injuries.

[CubColtPacer]

For those who are really unhappy with Izturis, I have a question. What numbers offensively would you acccept from him to make him a decent overall player for the team that brings value to the team? What are the numbers he needs to reach?

[abuck1220]

 

oh, and defense doesn't win championships in baseball.

 

What does? Sabrmetrics?

 

hitting and pitching. show me some proof that defense wins championships, and maybe i'll get on board. until then, it's just a lovely sounding cliche that you can put on t-shirts and such.