Cedeno's fielding ability is a myth

[Soul]

I keep hearing that Cedeno's defense is good. "Hey, at least he plays good defense."

 

No he doesn't.

 

 

Ronny Cedeno:

 

FPCT: .958 Ranks 26th

 

E 14 Ranks near the bottom. 24 SS's ahead of him--a ton of ties at various levels.

 

Range Factor: 4.12 Ranks 22nd

 

Zone Rating: .834 Ranks 16th

 

We can all argue who's fault it might be that Ronny isn't getting it done. Given the CPatt fiasco, it would be difficult to just lay all the blame at the players' feet. But the fact remains, Cedeno is stinking on both sides of the ball, not just offensively.

[Sammy Sofa]

I don't think he's terrible, but he's definitely not the answer at SS if this organization doesn't wise the hell up and drastically improve the OF. If we have mashing corner guys out there, I have no problem with Cedeno getting his sea legs in the Cubs' infield.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Cedeno is Shawon Dunston with less power.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

[Soul]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree. Maybe they don't tell you much about a guy's phyical ability to play defense.....but if you can't make the plays well then-----you can't make the plays.

 

And 14 errors is so many more than many other shortstops. It's not that he's able to get to balls that others can't and they are being called errors. It's that he is just shaky on defense, like yesterday when he airmails a throw to first.

Edited July 15, 2006 by Soul

[dalgreen]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree.

 

Errors tell you something but not everything. ARam is second in fielding pct. either in the NL or MLB and I think he's one of the worst defensive thirdbasemen in the game. Also, remember a couple of bad scoring decisions can screw your fielding pct. up. Having said that, Cedeno has been disappointing in the field, but, unlike Shawon Dunston, as another poster pointed out, I think he will get better and his defensive liabilities of today won't be talked about 5-10 years from now. I'll give Baker this, if he truly hated kids, he could've used some of the stats you used to justify sitting Cedeno.

[Soul]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree.

 

Errors tell you something but not everything. ARam is second in fielding pct. either in the NL or MLB and I think he's one of the worst defensive thirdbasemen in the game. Also, remember a couple of bad scoring decisions can screw your fielding pct. up. Having said that, Cedeno has been disappointing in the field, but, unlike Shawon Dunston, as another poster pointed out, I think he will get better and his defensive liabilities of today won't be talked about 5-10 years from now. I'll give Baker this, if he truly hated kids, he could've used some of the stats you used to justify sitting Cedeno.

 

....not by as many errors as Cedeno has over his peers. Those aren't just a few bad scoring decisions.

[dalgreen]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree.

 

Errors tell you something but not everything. ARam is second in fielding pct. either in the NL or MLB and I think he's one of the worst defensive thirdbasemen in the game. Also, remember a couple of bad scoring decisions can screw your fielding pct. up. Having said that, Cedeno has been disappointing in the field, but, unlike Shawon Dunston, as another poster pointed out, I think he will get better and his defensive liabilities of today won't be talked about 5-10 years from now. I'll give Baker this, if he truly hated kids, he could've used some of the stats you used to justify sitting Cedeno.

 

....not by as many errors as Cedeno has over his peers. Those aren't just a few bad scoring decisions.

 

When I said that, I wasn't referring to Cedeno but was referencing in general why # of errors doesn't always tell you everything. Like what I said about ARam.

[Soul]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree.

 

Errors tell you something but not everything. ARam is second in fielding pct. either in the NL or MLB and I think he's one of the worst defensive thirdbasemen in the game. Also, remember a couple of bad scoring decisions can screw your fielding pct. up. Having said that, Cedeno has been disappointing in the field, but, unlike Shawon Dunston, as another poster pointed out, I think he will get better and his defensive liabilities of today won't be talked about 5-10 years from now. I'll give Baker this, if he truly hated kids, he could've used some of the stats you used to justify sitting Cedeno.

 

....not by as many errors as Cedeno has over his peers. Those aren't just a few bad scoring decisions.

 

When I said that, I wasn't referring to Cedeno but was referencing in general why # of errors doesn't always tell you everything. Like what I said about ARam.

 

Yes, but if ARam is benefitting from Wrigley and Lee and all that, then that would suggest Cedeno's FPct & E totals are actually worse than they appear, not the other way around.

 

I'm not saying that is the case, however.

 

What I *am* trying to say is, many people sold Cedeno on the idea that he was an absolute stud on defense. I think it's been proven rather convincingly he is not. Maybe he is alright----or maybe there is room for improvement. I think you can say that about alot of young guys. But a defensive stud, right out of the box? That is false, in my view.

[dalgreen]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree.

 

Errors tell you something but not everything. ARam is second in fielding pct. either in the NL or MLB and I think he's one of the worst defensive thirdbasemen in the game. Also, remember a couple of bad scoring decisions can screw your fielding pct. up. Having said that, Cedeno has been disappointing in the field, but, unlike Shawon Dunston, as another poster pointed out, I think he will get better and his defensive liabilities of today won't be talked about 5-10 years from now. I'll give Baker this, if he truly hated kids, he could've used some of the stats you used to justify sitting Cedeno.

 

....not by as many errors as Cedeno has over his peers. Those aren't just a few bad scoring decisions.

 

When I said that, I wasn't referring to Cedeno but was referencing in general why # of errors doesn't always tell you everything. Like what I said about ARam.

 

Yes, but if ARam is benefitting from Wrigley and Lee and all that, then that would suggest Cedeno's FPct & E totals are actually worse than they appear, not the other way around.

 

I'm not saying that is the case, however.

 

What I *am* trying to say is, many people sold Cedeno on the idea that he was an absolute stud on defense. I think it's been proven rather convincingly he is not. Maybe he is alright----or maybe there is room for improvement. I think you can say that about alot of young guys. But a defensive stud, right out of the box? That is false, in my view.

 

As I stated before, Cedeno has been very disappointing, to me, this year. I think he'll end up being good. But what do I know? I said the same thing about Murton, too. But I do think Cedeno, defensively, will get better.

[Sammy Sofa]

Cedeno was really propped up on his defense going into this year? Man, where the hell was I? I was flat-out terrified of seeing him hurl over to 1st and actually ended up being relieved when he didn't suck as much as I had assumed. Doesn't mean he's great or even good, but I was expecting a LOT worse and expected to see Neifi fulltime at SS by June.

[Rooftop Bum]

My thing with Cedeno is this. I don't care if the Cubs keep him or leave him. Either way is fine with me. I don't think he's all that special and I don't think he's terrible. If they can pick up someone better for him that suits me just fine. If not he's okay to have on the team.

[ConstableRabbit]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

I very may well have misread those charts, but doesn't that article also say that Griffey is the worst CF, A.Jones is below average, and Pierre is the 4th best?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

I very may well have misread those charts, but doesn't that article also say that Griffey is the worst CF, A.Jones is below average, and Pierre is the 4th best?

 

That's what it says.

[jjgman21]

IMO, all defensive metric used these days are pretty useless, especially when it comes to shortstops. errors certainly means next to nothing in my opinion, unless you're a total error machine with little range. Cedeno may make 10 more errors this year than an 'average' shortstop, but he will get to 15-20 more balls that an 'average' shorstop, I don't care what the range metrics say.

 

the reason I don't like the range metrics is teams with good pitching will inherently have good defensive range metrics. there's nothing a shortstop can do if a pitcher misses his spots or fails to pitch to his defense all together, and I don't think any range metric is capable of fully taking that into account.

 

and with all that said, he's 23 with incompetent coaching. let Cedeno play and see if he develops into a solid major league player, improve the team in other areas and wait out the contracts of the big hitting shortstops and sign one of them in FA if you decide you need thump out of shortstop.

[TB_11]

and with all that said, he's 23 with incompetent coaching. let Cedeno play and see if he develops into a solid major league player, improve the team in other areas and wait out the contracts of the big hitting shortstops and sign one of them in FA if you decide you need thump out of shortstop.

 

This should be said before anyone says that Cedeno isn't the Cubs answer at shortstop.

[jaydee]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree. Maybe they don't tell you much about a guy's phyical ability to play defense.....but if you can't make the plays well then-----you can't make the plays.

 

And 14 errors is so many more than many other shortstops. It's not that he's able to get to balls that others can't and they are being called errors. It's that he is just shaky on defense, like yesterday when he airmails a throw to first.

 

Errors don't tell you anything. Sorry to break this to you.

[Soul]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree. Maybe they don't tell you much about a guy's phyical ability to play defense.....but if you can't make the plays well then-----you can't make the plays.

 

And 14 errors is so many more than many other shortstops. It's not that he's able to get to balls that others can't and they are being called errors. It's that he is just shaky on defense, like yesterday when he airmails a throw to first.

 

Errors don't tell you anything. Sorry to break this to you.

 

Yes they do. I don't care what "conventional wisdom" has developed to say it means nothing. If I've got a guy who continues to airmail the ball into the dugout, or muff easy double-play balls, he's not going to stay in the starting lineup very long. Especially if it starts costing me ballgames.

 

I do agree it would be wrong to just throw Cedeno out because of what's happening only this season, under this incompetent coaching staff.

[cbbryan]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree. Maybe they don't tell you much about a guy's phyical ability to play defense.....but if you can't make the plays well then-----you can't make the plays.

 

And 14 errors is so many more than many other shortstops. It's not that he's able to get to balls that others can't and they are being called errors. It's that he is just shaky on defense, like yesterday when he airmails a throw to first.

 

Errors don't tell you anything. Sorry to break this to you.

 

Yes they do. I don't care what "conventional wisdom" has developed to say it means nothing. If I've got a guy who continues to airmail the ball into the dugout, or muff easy double-play balls, he's not going to stay in the starting lineup very long. Especially if it starts costing me ballgames.

 

I do agree it would be wrong to just throw Cedeno out because of what's happening only this season, under this incompetent coaching staff.

 

What if his name was Soriano?

[Tracer Bullet]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

I very may well have misread those charts, but doesn't that article also say that Griffey is the worst CF, A.Jones is below average, and Pierre is the 4th best?

 

That's what it says.

 

I can believe Griff Jr is the worst NL CF right now (if he runs too fast at this point, his legs will actually fall off of his body). I'm a little surprised to see Cliff Floyd ranked #2 for LF's though. I always thought of Cliff as being less than great in LF.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

I very may well have misread those charts, but doesn't that article also say that Griffey is the worst CF, A.Jones is below average, and Pierre is the 4th best?

 

That's what it says.

 

I can believe Griff Jr is the worst NL CF right now (if he runs too fast at this point, his legs will actually fall off of his body). I'm a little surprised to see Cliff Floyd ranked #2 for LF's though. I always thought of Cliff as being less than great in LF.

 

Remember that it's only half of one season, there's room for a lot of variance in that short timeframe.

[Soul]

What's a myth is thinking those three stats tell you anything about a player defensively.

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/rings/discussion/2006_defensive_ratings_through_june_22

 

Cedeno's been above average defensively.

 

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree. Maybe they don't tell you much about a guy's phyical ability to play defense.....but if you can't make the plays well then-----you can't make the plays.

 

And 14 errors is so many more than many other shortstops. It's not that he's able to get to balls that others can't and they are being called errors. It's that he is just shaky on defense, like yesterday when he airmails a throw to first.

 

Errors don't tell you anything. Sorry to break this to you.

 

Yes they do. I don't care what "conventional wisdom" has developed to say it means nothing. If I've got a guy who continues to airmail the ball into the dugout, or muff easy double-play balls, he's not going to stay in the starting lineup very long. Especially if it starts costing me ballgames.

 

I do agree it would be wrong to just throw Cedeno out because of what's happening only this season, under this incompetent coaching staff.

 

What if his name was Soriano?

 

Then I'd move him to LF 8)

 

....because he hits. Remember, Ronny isn't hitting, at least for the moment (hopefully he'll improve).

[cubweiser03]

This is Cedeno's first full year and ive been more impressed than i thought. Sure he makes some bad throws and flubs some easy ones but hes very athletic and can make some very difficult plays. He has the ability to be a above average defensive SS with more seasoning.

 

Also, i dont share the view that this coaching staff is totally incompentant . Aramis wasn't a very good 3b when he came to chicago but he has improved his defense a lot since he came here. I think some of that has to do with coaching.

[CuseCubFan69]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Cedeno and a reliever moved so Perez can play SS. Walker is my first guess but if he can't be moved Cedeno will be next. Cedeno has proved he could be a decent backup SS for a team in contention and a valueable piece for their (contender) bench.

 

I still see Cedeno as a 270-290 guy that will be an average to above average defensive SS.

[Abe Frohman]

I think Cedeno is a pretty good SS. I just think he needs to be mentally reprogrammed as a hitter.