Ronny Cedeno vs. Rafael Furcal

[Backtobanks]

They're spending $98 million. Remove the following salaries:

 

Pierre: 5.75

Mabry: 1.1

Blanco: 1.5

Perez: 2.5

Rusch: 2.75

Wood: 12

Miller: 1.0

Maddux: 9

Total: 35.6

 

 

That's $35.6 million to spend on quality players (or-more than double the Marlins total payroll). Think about what a good GM could have done with 35.6 million and ask yourself whether or not its truly the Trib's fault for not giving Hendry enough money.

 

 

To put it another way. Hire a guy to paint your house. Give him money up front. Instead of spending it on good paint, he buys mediocre paint that peels almost immediately. Are you going to give him MORE money to do a bad job again? No-you're going to look for a new painter. That is the Trib's only mistake here-not hiring a new painter.

 

Indeed. But you said it yourself: the Trib is not hiring that new painter. They're staying with the status quo, and have given no indication they will change any time soon.

 

Further, I would argue they didn't do their homework in the first place, instead hiring Hendry as de-facto GM because he was already in the system, not because there was any indication he would be a successful GM.

 

Either way you slice it, there's just no way to insulate ownership from the futility of the team on the field. They are part of the equation, and deserve their share of the blame, regardless of how much cash they dole out on a yearly basis.

 

Not to defend Hendry, but look at most of the big name free agents and you see that Hendry is not the only fool around. Of course, we (Cub Fans) only care about Hendry. The bottom line is that these GMs are willing to give big money to mediocre players that have had one "career year". Everyone is looking for the easy solution (free agency) to a complex problem.

[SoonerCubFan]

I would take Furcal at a reasonable price over Ronny "I will never take a walk" Cedeno any time.

 

Furcal's OBP isn't that much better than Cedeno's.

 

I just hate Cedeno's inability to see pitches at certain points. I think Furcal is a better player at this stage, hopefully Cedeno improves his patience.

 

I really don't see it. Reaching base one more per 60+ PAs is trivial. To me, Ronny already has the ability to hit a lot of line drives to all fields, which can't be learned. I liken him to Ryno prior to 1984, with the body frame to add quite a bit more power on top of the almost inevitable ability to draw more walks as his career progresses. He's also a very good baserunner.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

If only Ronny could hit lefties. His numbers would be fantastic.

[Soul]

Not to defend Hendry, but look at most of the big name free agents and you see that Hendry is not the only fool around. Of course, we (Cub Fans) only care about Hendry. The bottom line is that these GMs are willing to give big money to mediocre players that have had one "career year". Everyone is looking for the easy solution (free agency) to a complex problem.

 

Honestly I don't even care if the Cubs are a top spender. That's not the only way to get it done. I look over at the Cards and they have a much lower payroll, less-than-stellar minor leagues to draw from, yet they're doing pretty darn good year in and year out.

 

How does that work, exactly? I know one thing, it doesn't work if you didn't hire a decent GM.

 

It's really not about the money, if I may toss around a sports cliche'.

[CuseCubFan69]

If the Cubs signed Furcal he'd just be another high priced player underperforming his contract. He's at a point in his career where he will probably underperform until he retires.

 

I was never for signing Furcal, and I'm glad he walked away from the deal.

 

Walker>Furcal

Cedeno>Furcal

Pierre>Furcal (for the money)

 

Furcal saved Hendry from himself.

 

I'd take Pierre over Furcal because he can play CF and the Cubs needed that but losing Pinto and Nolesco really hurts IMO.

[CubColtPacer]

They're spending $98 million. Remove the following salaries:

 

Pierre: 5.75

Mabry: 1.1

Blanco: 1.5

Perez: 2.5

Rusch: 2.75

Wood: 12

Miller: 1.0

Maddux: 9

Total: 35.6

 

 

That's $35.6 million to spend on quality players (or-more than double the Marlins total payroll). Think about what a good GM could have done with 35.6 million and ask yourself whether or not its truly the Trib's fault for not giving Hendry enough money.

 

 

To put it another way. Hire a guy to paint your house. Give him money up front. Instead of spending it on good paint, he buys mediocre paint that peels almost immediately. Are you going to give him MORE money to do a bad job again? No-you're going to look for a new painter. That is the Trib's only mistake here-not hiring a new painter.

 

Ok, like the other people have said, let's take Wood out of it. At the time, it would have been seen as foolish for us to get rid of him-so we can't help if he didn't turn out. So that's 23.6 million for 7 player spots that we would have to fill. What suggestions do you have with 23.6 million to spend? That's maybe 1 star player, a few bench players, and a couple more young guys. So-what options would have given us significantly more production with the money that we had left?

Also-let's look at a couple more players on your list. Do you really think Blanco is significantly overpaid or we could have gotten somebody else to back up at the catcher spot? That is simply a position you have to have, and I think Blanco has been what a backup catcher simply is.

Finally-Mabry and Miller. Mabry has been slightly disappointing, but do you really think you could have gotten somebody considerably better for that money? Miller also-we can't even evaluate him yet-many people knew that it would probably be after the All Star Break that he would pitch anyway. Let's wait on that 1 million to see if it really is a horrible move.

So-what would have been your plan?

[CubColtPacer]

Not to defend Hendry, but look at most of the big name free agents and you see that Hendry is not the only fool around. Of course, we (Cub Fans) only care about Hendry. The bottom line is that these GMs are willing to give big money to mediocre players that have had one "career year". Everyone is looking for the easy solution (free agency) to a complex problem.

 

Honestly I don't even care if the Cubs are a top spender. That's not the only way to get it done. I look over at the Cards and they have a much lower payroll, less-than-stellar minor leagues to draw from, yet they're doing pretty darn good year in and year out.

 

How does that work, exactly? I know one thing, it doesn't work if you didn't hire a decent GM.

 

It's really not about the money, if I may toss around a sports cliche'.

 

The Cardinals don't have a significantly lower payroll-their payroll is only 7 million dollars less than ours this year, and that uses Nevin's salary for the Cubs. You are right though, they have made some pretty good moves. Which players though do you think their GM has gotten that have pushed them upward? Players who are at a much better value then the Cubs players?

[badger1679666666]

They're spending $98 million. Remove the following salaries:

 

Pierre: 5.75

Mabry: 1.1

Blanco: 1.5

Perez: 2.5

Rusch: 2.75

Wood: 12

Miller: 1.0

Maddux: 9

Total: 35.6

 

 

That's $35.6 million to spend on quality players (or-more than double the Marlins total payroll). Think about what a good GM could have done with 35.6 million and ask yourself whether or not its truly the Trib's fault for not giving Hendry enough money.

 

 

To put it another way. Hire a guy to paint your house. Give him money up front. Instead of spending it on good paint, he buys mediocre paint that peels almost immediately. Are you going to give him MORE money to do a bad job again? No-you're going to look for a new painter. That is the Trib's only mistake here-not hiring a new painter.

 

Including Wood in those numbers isn't really fair. Coming off 3 healthy seasons in 2001 (once he was ready to start after surgery - relatively early in the season, 2002, and that great 2003, most people weren't complaining about the 3 year deal plus a 4th option year.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I would take Furcal at a reasonable price over Ronny "I will never take a walk" Cedeno any time.

 

Furcal's OBP isn't that much better than Cedeno's.

 

I just hate Cedeno's inability to see pitches at certain points. I think Furcal is a better player at this stage, hopefully Cedeno improves his patience.

 

Remove your sunglasses, dude, please. Cause considering AGE, and FINANCIAL commitments, Cedeno is performing better then Furcal. Cedeno didn't start progressing as a offensive player, till like 3 yrs ago. So he still have a ways to go. Not to mention this is Cedeno's first full season in the majors. So, you expect similar numbers to what Cedeno has put up. I fully expect Cedeno to improve in those areas as he gets older. What is Furcal's "excuse" for being a below-average SS?

[NewUserName]

The real problem with frucal is we had our eyes set on him and Pierre. When Frucal fell through we had to overspend for Pierre. We didnt explore other options, like Micheals, Lofton, Giles, Renteria, Castillo. The team was to focused on speed and missed other viable options that may have been better.

[SoonerCubFan]

Not to defend Hendry, but look at most of the big name free agents and you see that Hendry is not the only fool around. Of course, we (Cub Fans) only care about Hendry. The bottom line is that these GMs are willing to give big money to mediocre players that have had one "career year". Everyone is looking for the easy solution (free agency) to a complex problem.

 

Honestly I don't even care if the Cubs are a top spender. That's not the only way to get it done. I look over at the Cards and they have a much lower payroll, less-than-stellar minor leagues to draw from, yet they're doing pretty darn good year in and year out.

 

How does that work, exactly? I know one thing, it doesn't work if you didn't hire a decent GM.

 

It's really not about the money, if I may toss around a sports cliche'.

 

The Cardinals don't have a significantly lower payroll-their payroll is only 7 million dollars less than ours this year, and that uses Nevin's salary for the Cubs. You are right though, they have made some pretty good moves. Which players though do you think their GM has gotten that have pushed them upward? Players who are at a much better value then the Cubs players?

 

In retrospect, the Cards' model has been to target a handful proven All Star caliber players in trades at opportune times, sign them to long term deals, then get SMART, decent D veteran ballplayers to fill the rest of the everyday lineup. They aren't afraid to go get a guy like Rolen at any time of the year even though they already have a hitter like Pujols at 3B - i.e., get the best players possible when the opportunity arises. Our GM and financial folks don't bother to make an easily similar deal simply because the team isn't in the race, showing no vision for future years. They turn a pitcher coming off a career year like Bottenfield into an All Star everyday player, while we sit on Jon Lieber until he gets hurt.

 

They don't necessarily get high OBP guys, they get ballplayers who execute at the right time. They get ground ball pitchers who know that the easiest way out of jam is to throw offspeed oitches down and away to aggressive hitters to get the DP. Our guys work their asses off to make a perfect, nasty pitch on an 0-0 or 0-1 count, only to lose the AB on an 0-2 pitch. They fill out their bullpen later in the offseason, while we spend huge amounts to fill out this volatile, hard to project part of the team first, then get good results simply through matchups and having a healthy starting staff throwing a decent amount of innings.

[moorecg]

 

To put it another way. Hire a guy to paint your house. Give him money up front. Instead of spending it on good paint, he buys mediocre paint that peels almost immediately. Are you going to give him MORE money to do a bad job again? No-you're going to look for a new painter. That is the Trib's only mistake here-not hiring a new painter.

 

The basic flaw in this premise is that you assume by hiring a "painter" the Trib's goal was a well painted house. As a business, the Trib's goal is making a return on assets, here, their "painter" while using inferior, or overpriced "paint" has still managed to show a substantial return for their investment. From the business side of it, he's done great.

[Caryatid]

They're spending $98 million. Remove the following salaries:

 

Pierre: 5.75

Mabry: 1.1

Blanco: 1.5

Perez: 2.5

Rusch: 2.75

Wood: 12

Miller: 1.0

Maddux: 9

Total: 35.6

 

 

That's $35.6 million to spend on quality players (or-more than double the Marlins total payroll). Think about what a good GM could have done with 35.6 million and ask yourself whether or not its truly the Trib's fault for not giving Hendry enough money.

 

 

To put it another way. Hire a guy to paint your house. Give him money up front. Instead of spending it on good paint, he buys mediocre paint that peels almost immediately. Are you going to give him MORE money to do a bad job again? No-you're going to look for a new painter. That is the Trib's only mistake here-not hiring a new painter.

 

Ok, like the other people have said, let's take Wood out of it. At the time, it would have been seen as foolish for us to get rid of him-so we can't help if he didn't turn out. So that's 23.6 million for 7 player spots that we would have to fill. What suggestions do you have with 23.6 million to spend? That's maybe 1 star player, a few bench players, and a couple more young guys. So-what options would have given us significantly more production with the money that we had left?

Also-let's look at a couple more players on your list. Do you really think Blanco is significantly overpaid or we could have gotten somebody else to back up at the catcher spot? That is simply a position you have to have, and I think Blanco has been what a backup catcher simply is.

Finally-Mabry and Miller. Mabry has been slightly disappointing, but do you really think you could have gotten somebody considerably better for that money? Miller also-we can't even evaluate him yet-many people knew that it would probably be after the All Star Break that he would pitch anyway. Let's wait on that 1 million to see if it really is a horrible move.

So-what would have been your plan?

 

 

Feel free to take Wood out of it. 23 million to spend over the last three years-Replace Perez with Bellhorn (savings of 2 million), Mabry with Theriot (saving 1.2 million), or, if you want a veteran, go with Hatteberg (saving 300,000 min). Miller wasn't any good when he was healthy, so its a waste. Replace Blanco with any catcher in baseball-might as well bring up Soto to play once a week and hit .180 (his recent hot streak notwithstanding)-saving over a million.

 

Take 23 million (over the last two years), and go a few ways:

 

1. Carlos Beltran (13.5)

2. Kenny Rogers (8.0)

 

Or:

 

1. Ordonez (11)

2. Garciaparra (5)

3. Millwood (8.0)

 

Or:

 

1. Alou (7.5)

2. Dye (5)

3. Cabrera (7.5)

 

 

Any one of those would have worked fine.

Edited June 20, 2006 by Caryatid

[Caryatid]

 

To put it another way. Hire a guy to paint your house. Give him money up front. Instead of spending it on good paint, he buys mediocre paint that peels almost immediately. Are you going to give him MORE money to do a bad job again? No-you're going to look for a new painter. That is the Trib's only mistake here-not hiring a new painter.

 

The basic flaw in this premise is that you assume by hiring a "painter" the Trib's goal was a well painted house. As a business, the Trib's goal is making a return on assets, here, their "painter" while using inferior, or overpriced "paint" has still managed to show a substantial return for their investment. From the business side of it, he's done great.

 

I think, even from the business side of it, he's done a poor job. He could have saved the company upwards of $20 million and gotten identical production to what he's gotten. Given that the park would most likely have been sold out for the year without that $20 million, he's even done a poor job from that perspective.

[Shavo]

I would take Furcal at a reasonable price over Ronny "I will never take a walk" Cedeno any time.

 

Furcal's OBP isn't that much better than Cedeno's.

 

I just hate Cedeno's inability to see pitches at certain points. I think Furcal is a better player at this stage, hopefully Cedeno improves his patience.

 

Remove your sunglasses, dude, please. Cause considering AGE, and FINANCIAL commitments, Cedeno is performing better then Furcal. Cedeno didn't start progressing as a offensive player, till like 3 yrs ago. So he still have a ways to go. Not to mention this is Cedeno's first full season in the majors. So, you expect similar numbers to what Cedeno has put up. I fully expect Cedeno to improve in those areas as he gets older. What is Furcal's "excuse" for being a below-average SS?

 

Thanks for TELLING me, dude. I have REMOVED my sunglasses, and now I SEE the light.

 

I was speaking in tearms of ability, Furcal is better at this point.

[dalgreen]

We have to remember the Tribune Co.'s main objective is not the Cubs, it's mass media and making money. I would guess the majority of shareholder aren't Cub fans and maybe not even baseball fans. I'm fine with the budget they allocate Hendry. I'm more dissatisfied with MacPhail, Hendry and Baker than I am with the ownership.

 

Regarding Furcal vs. Cedeno, I'm fine with Cedeno and I think he'll get better rather quickly (albeit I said the same thing about Murton at the end of last year). But why compare Furcal to Cedeno? We could've signed Renteria instead of Garciaparra after 2004, or if the rumors were true we could've had Tejada by trading Prior, but I know that would've made quite a few people mad, which I don't understand. So, I think you have to throw in more SS other than just Furcal.

[Caryatid]

I would take Furcal at a reasonable price over Ronny "I will never take a walk" Cedeno any time.

 

Furcal's OBP isn't that much better than Cedeno's.

 

I just hate Cedeno's inability to see pitches at certain points. I think Furcal is a better player at this stage, hopefully Cedeno improves his patience.

 

Remove your sunglasses, dude, please. Cause considering AGE, and FINANCIAL commitments, Cedeno is performing better then Furcal. Cedeno didn't start progressing as a offensive player, till like 3 yrs ago. So he still have a ways to go. Not to mention this is Cedeno's first full season in the majors. So, you expect similar numbers to what Cedeno has put up. I fully expect Cedeno to improve in those areas as he gets older. What is Furcal's "excuse" for being a below-average SS?

 

Thanks for TELLING me, dude. I have REMOVED my sunglasses, and now I SEE the light.

 

I was speaking in tearms of ability, Furcal is better at this point.

 

One more time on base every 60 ABs, coupled with 5 more errors, leads me to believe that he's not better regardless of salary.

[Big Fergie J]

I would take Furcal at a reasonable price over Ronny "I will never take a walk" Cedeno any time.

 

Furcal's OBP isn't that much better than Cedeno's.

 

I just hate Cedeno's inability to see pitches at certain points. I think Furcal is a better player at this stage, hopefully Cedeno improves his patience.

 

Remove your sunglasses, dude, please. Cause considering AGE, and FINANCIAL commitments, Cedeno is performing better then Furcal. Cedeno didn't start progressing as a offensive player, till like 3 yrs ago. So he still have a ways to go. Not to mention this is Cedeno's first full season in the majors. So, you expect similar numbers to what Cedeno has put up. I fully expect Cedeno to improve in those areas as he gets older. What is Furcal's "excuse" for being a below-average SS?

 

Thanks for TELLING me, dude. I have REMOVED my sunglasses, and now I SEE the light.

 

I was speaking in tearms of ability, Furcal is better at this point.

 

Come on Shavo, you can't admit on a statistical basis, financial basis, PECOTA basis, normalized projection basis that Furcal is better at this point.

 

The numbers don't support your argument.