Interesting Dusty Quote.

[Careless]

Baker's comment is neither crazy nor stupid. Most major-league hitters "think" along with the pitcher, making them easier to set up. When a big-league pitcher rehabs in the minors, he has a hard time "setting up" hitters because they don't know they're being set up. Hence, they hit a lot of pitches they shouldn't hit. I've heard this from many a big-league pitcher whose gone down to rehab or tried to resurrect his career in the minors. Yes, it sounds crazy and people like to jump on everything Baker says, but there's some truth to it.

So the best strategy would be a revolving door of minor league players. For some reason, no one does this. If Dusty really believed this, you wouldn't see rookies sitting on the bench their entire callup.

 

Believe what you will, but I'll take it from pitchers like Rod Beck, Greg Maddux (who has faced minor-leaguers in spring training games), Ryan Dempster who say that minor-leaguers are tough to face, especially when you're trying to work on stuff. It does not mean that minor-leaguers can't hit good pitches or that they are better hitters or thatteams should stock their bench with minor leaguers. If a guy like Greg Maddux tells me it's difficult (and you should see him when he faces minor leaguers _ he takes it seriously), then it's good enough for me. All I'm trying to do is add a dose of perspective.

But that (bolded part) seems to be an inescapable conclusion. But I think you've pointed out the flaw here when you mention "work[ing] on stuff." When do pitchers face minor leaguers? when they're coming back from injury (less than 100%) and working on their stuff. They're trying to throw the things they know they can get major leaguers out with, not destroy a lineup of AA'ers. Now if it turns out this quote is entirely in the context of explaining a pitcher's struggles in a rehab start, I can accept it as a poorly worded but valid explaination, given the above.

As to the reaction of posters here (like me) against this quote, you really have a perfect storm here: Dusty likes free swinging. Dusty talking about free swinging being the hardest thing for a pitcher to handle. Dusty saying that minor leaguers are the hardest to pitch to. Dusty not liking to use minor leaguers to hit.

I can kind of see what he's getting at. Look how crazy good Jeff Francoeur was at first.

[stitchface]

oops, of course I meant they can hit fastballs. FWIW, I don't put any stock in the quote and I'm not remotely worried about what Prior does in his rehab starts. The statement is still nonsense though.

[stitchface]

I can see that minor leaguers could be tough to pitch to - I don't see how they are the toughest to pitch to. that makes no sense. By this logic, major league hitters are easier to get out - they clearly aren't so the statement is false. I don't think dusty said it because he is dumb though.

[RynoRules]

I am not sure this means that minor leaguers are harder to get out, b/c to say that would be illogical. Maybe the difference is simply that major leaguers are better hitters than minor leaguers (physically), but their mental approach is different. Thus, when established ML pitchers do rehab, they witness a different mental approach to hitting as performed by weaker players.

[Careless]

I am not sure this means that minor leaguers are harder to get out, b/c to say that would be illogical. Maybe the difference is simply that major leaguers are better hitters than minor leaguers (physically), but their mental approach is different. Thus, when established ML pitchers do rehab, they witness a different mental approach to hitting as performed by weaker players.

So they're tougher to pitch to but easier to get out? that seems utterly nonsensical. The definition of "tough to pitch to" should be "difficult to keep off base"

[RynoRules]

I am not sure this means that minor leaguers are harder to get out, b/c to say that would be illogical. Maybe the difference is simply that major leaguers are better hitters than minor leaguers (physically), but their mental approach is different. Thus, when established ML pitchers do rehab, they witness a different mental approach to hitting as performed by weaker players.

So they're tougher to pitch to but easier to get out? that seems utterly nonsensical. The definition of "tough to pitch to" should be "difficult to keep off base"

 

Question: Where did I write that they are "tougher to picth to". You seem to be having trouble understanding my thesis, so let me simplify it:

 

1) Minor league hitters are not as good at hitting as MLers;

 

2) Minor league hitters also have a different approach (i.e., mental approach) to hitting than do MLers;

 

3) ML pitchers are more accustomed to pitching to ML hitters, and thus are more familiar / comfortable with their approach;

 

4) Therefore, minor league hitters present a special "problem" for ML pitchers b/c they take a different approach to hitting. This approach does not make up the gap between MLers and minor leaguers (obviously), but perhaps it causes some problems for longtime ML pitchers who find themselves on rehab assignments.

[Careless]

I am not sure this means that minor leaguers are harder to get out, b/c to say that would be illogical. Maybe the difference is simply that major leaguers are better hitters than minor leaguers (physically), but their mental approach is different. Thus, when established ML pitchers do rehab, they witness a different mental approach to hitting as performed by weaker players.

So they're tougher to pitch to but easier to get out? that seems utterly nonsensical. The definition of "tough to pitch to" should be "difficult to keep off base"

 

Question: Where did I write that they are "tougher to picth to". You seem to be having trouble understanding my thesis, so let me simplify it:

You didn't have to, that's the quote we're all talking about

[RynoRules]

I am not sure this means that minor leaguers are harder to get out, b/c to say that would be illogical. Maybe the difference is simply that major leaguers are better hitters than minor leaguers (physically), but their mental approach is different. Thus, when established ML pitchers do rehab, they witness a different mental approach to hitting as performed by weaker players.

So they're tougher to pitch to but easier to get out? that seems utterly nonsensical. The definition of "tough to pitch to" should be "difficult to keep off base"

 

Question: Where did I write that they are "tougher to picth to". You seem to be having trouble understanding my thesis, so let me simplify it:

You didn't have to, that's the quote we're all talking about

 

And what about the rest of my statement...

[Careless]

I am not sure this means that minor leaguers are harder to get out, b/c to say that would be illogical. Maybe the difference is simply that major leaguers are better hitters than minor leaguers (physically), but their mental approach is different. Thus, when established ML pitchers do rehab, they witness a different mental approach to hitting as performed by weaker players.

So they're tougher to pitch to but easier to get out? that seems utterly nonsensical. The definition of "tough to pitch to" should be "difficult to keep off base"

 

Question: Where did I write that they are "tougher to picth to". You seem to be having trouble understanding my thesis, so let me simplify it:

You didn't have to, that's the quote we're all talking about

 

And what about the rest of my statement...

Sorry, I had assumed that your statement had something to do with the quote. I find it reasonable that pitchers would get frustrated trying to get inferior hitters out with the techniques that work on superior hitters and having less success than they figure they should have.

[RynoRules]

Nevermind.

[CubinNY]

I am not sure this means that minor leaguers are harder to get out, b/c to say that would be illogical. Maybe the difference is simply that major leaguers are better hitters than minor leaguers (physically), but their mental approach is different. Thus, when established ML pitchers do rehab, they witness a different mental approach to hitting as performed by weaker players.

So they're tougher to pitch to but easier to get out? that seems utterly nonsensical. The definition of "tough to pitch to" should be "difficult to keep off base"

 

Question: Where did I write that they are "tougher to picth to". You seem to be having trouble understanding my thesis, so let me simplify it:

 

1) Minor league hitters are not as good at hitting as MLers;

 

2) Minor league hitters also have a different approach (i.e., mental approach) to hitting than do MLers;

 

3) ML pitchers are more accustomed to pitching to ML hitters, and thus are more familiar / comfortable with their approach;

 

4) Therefore, minor league hitters present a special "problem" for ML pitchers b/c they take a different approach to hitting. This approach does not make up the gap between MLers and minor leaguers (obviously), but perhaps it causes some problems for longtime ML pitchers who find themselves on rehab assignments.

 

I think your entire thesis rests on point #2.

 

For evidence against that I present Corey Patterson as a specific case in point to suggest that what you write is not the case. In addition, in general minor league numbers are a pretty good predictor of major league numbers. Somebody else mentioned Jeff Francour as having success when he first came up. Well, he had a ridiculous BABIP but his approach is pretty much the same as it was in the minors, swing early and swing often.

 

However upon further reflection, I can understand what Dusty and Bruce are saying in some respect. Major league pitchers might not know the tendencies of minor league hitters. There also may be some difficult to quatify variables in play as well.

[RynoRules]

Good analysis; most of this presupposes that there is some truth in point no. 2, of course. Requires you to lend credibility to what Bruce posted. Based on his years in the buiz, I am willing to do that.

[SaorsaDaonnan]

One thing to consider is that minor leaguers will sometimes swing at, say, a fat changeup clearly below the zone. Every once in a while, they'll hit it. And when this happens, it's easy to think that they've been

 

I submit that by "harder to pitch to," we mean "more difficult to plan for, because they will swing at pitches ordinary players wouldn't, and vice versa. Major league hitters have often noticed that certain pitches come on certain counts, or that a fastball normally follows a changeup, ect. Since they have expectations, they are more likely to sit on a particular pitch, and thus in a certain sense they can be more easily fooled.

 

So, the "mind game" might genuinely be more difficult. For pitchers accustomed to using the hitter's expectations against him, it might genuinely be "more difficult" to generate a successful strategy, even though the hitters are less skilled and less likely to succeed.

 

Also, I submit Prior

 

Setting [Minor League hitters up] is a little tougher," Prior said. "You don't have scouting reports and you know a little about guys based on watching their swings, but you don't know everything. It makes it tough because you're trying to work on things. They're geared up trying to get hits off of you. You try to rely on your catcher and pitching coach, and I thought Mark Reed did a great job calling the game."

 

So in Prior's opinion, it increases your reliance on others. And when a minor leaguer is playing in spring training or as a recent callup, often none of those other guys will know anything more than the pitcher.

 

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060604&content_id=1487788&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

[Tracer Bullet]

Given Dusty's past quotes, I don't think anyone can be blamed for making fun of a statement like that. If there was more to it that was left out, that's one thing, but to just come out and make a statement like that sounds dumb.

 

It just can't be true that pitching to MiL hitters is more difficult. It probably seems more difficult b/c the only time you're facing them is ST or during a rehab start, when the pitcher doesn't have all their pitches in mid-season form and doesn't have a scouting report on the hitters. If all you're throwing is fastballs (esp mid-80s fastballs, like Prior was in his first outing), even A-ball hitters are going to hit you. And I would think that for many of those guys, facing Prior is the highlight of their young career and may end up being highlight of their career (many of them will never get to face another great pitcher) - so they're going to be swinging.

 

So the combination of aggressive hitters and a guy trying to get some arm strength back, throwing almost all fastballs (and not 100 mph fastballs) is going to result in a lot of hits. But if Prior v.2003 was pitching to MiL hitters v. ML hitters, I'm pretty sure he'd say that the ML hitters were more difficult.