Anybody see Gammons on ESPN News last night?

[3Dog]

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think that is what goony means.

 

I don't think the players on the Cubs are any more dumb then the average baseball player.

 

Hendry drafts and covets players who look good in a uniform and have physical talent, while shortchanging or neglecting to look at other, more important things like the ability to get on base or the ability to throw strikes.

 

Fair enough. I probably read my own opinions into his statement. However I do feel much of a player's "talent" is derived from his mental approach, and I would suggest that the ability to get on base and throw strikes consistently requires at least a modicum of thought on the part of the player.

[Magnetic Curses]

They have a lot of physical talent, and athletic talent, but not nearly enough baseball talent.

 

Agreed. I've even invented a phrase for it - "neck-down baseball".

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think that is what goony means.

 

I don't think the players on the Cubs are any more dumb then the average baseball player.

 

Hendry drafts and covets players who look good in a uniform and have physical talent, while shortchanging or neglecting to look at other, more important things like the ability to get on base or the ability to throw strikes.

 

one of the points of "moneyball" (a point i think is even more interesting than the undervalue of obp in the past) is that there are some players who are natural ballplayers. beane remarks that lenny dykstra was just one of those guys who didn't have an inkling of doubt in his mind when he stepped up to the plate, a characteristic that nick swisher apparently has.

 

it's not about playing smart or being smart, it's about having the right psychological makeup. i think todd walker has the same makeup, he doesn't go up there looking for walks, but he gets them if he doesn't get his pitch, he's not constantly second-guessing himself in the batter's box, which would lead to poor PA after poor PA.

 

that's not to say that you absolutely cannot turn an athlete into a good ballplayer with the right smoke and the right mirrors.

 

that said, i'd definitely develop some sort of absolute psychological profile on any player that i was going to draft. i wouldn't simply watch them run and throw and then say "i'll take him!" something that gary hughes has done more than enough times.

[SCCubbieFAN]

They were also talking last night on BBTN about the Angels. Their situation looks very similar to the Cubs', a mixture of young and older guys, one key vet (Vlad) carrying the team, very low emphasis on obp, batters not taking enough pitches/working the count, few walks, etc.

[goonys evil twin]

They were also talking last night on BBTN about the Angels and their situation looks very similar to the Cubs', a mixture of young and older guys, one key vet (Vlad) carrying the team, very low emphasis on obp, etc.

 

I was shocked to hear Steve Phillips talk about impatient hitters swinging at pitcher's pitches and stuff out of the zone. It was about the most intelligent 3 minutes he's had as an analyst.

[Derwood]

the OBP thing isn't new, but the team could always hide behind the fact that the team hit a lot of homers and could play Weaver-ball. Now with very few homers the inability to manufacture runs is even more magnified

[cheapseats]

the OBP thing isn't new, but the team could always hide behind the fact that the team hit a lot of homers and could play Weaver-ball. Now with very few homers the inability to manufacture runs is even more magnified

 

What do you mean by "manufacture runs?"

[Derwood]

the OBP thing isn't new, but the team could always hide behind the fact that the team hit a lot of homers and could play Weaver-ball. Now with very few homers the inability to manufacture runs is even more magnified

 

What do you mean by "manufacture runs?"

 

I can't tell if that was a sarcastic question or not

[Tracer Bullet]

They were also talking last night on BBTN about the Angels and their situation looks very similar to the Cubs', a mixture of young and older guys, one key vet (Vlad) carrying the team, very low emphasis on obp, etc.

 

I was shocked to hear Steve Phillips talk about impatient hitters swinging at pitcher's pitches and stuff out of the zone. It was about the most intelligent 3 minutes he's had as an analyst.

 

I don't know what's gotten into SP, but I've seen a couple of his chats on ESPN lately and in each of them he's made a comment about the importance of taking pitches and getting walks.

 

Quote from yesterday's chat to a question re the Angels:

It has been a disappointment so far, and they are hoping to get Colon back soon. They need help on offense, desperately. the young hitters that were so publicized have not lived up to the hype. Kochman and McPherson don't seem to be factors, and if they are going to win the Angels have to get on base more. They're last in OBP and pitchers per AB. Somehow they have to instill a sense of patience in what is a very aggressive offensive club. Ultimately, they are at least one ane maybe two major bats from having enough offense. I always liked Brandon Wood, the power-hitting SS in the minors and it may be time to get his sock in the lineup, even if they have to play him at third. Otherwise, it could be a long year in Anaheim.

the OBP thing isn't new, but the team could always hide behind the fact that the team hit a lot of homers and could play Weaver-ball. Now with very few homers the inability to manufacture runs is even more magnified

Even that claim is sketchy, because Weaverball requires excellent fundamentals.

[CubinNY]

the OBP thing isn't new, but the team could always hide behind the fact that the team hit a lot of homers and could play Weaver-ball. Now with very few homers the inability to manufacture runs is even more magnified

Even that claim is sketchy, because Weaverball requires excellent fundamentals.

 

And walks, which is something the Cubs didn't do too well even in the Sammy years.

[cheapseats]

the OBP thing isn't new, but the team could always hide behind the fact that the team hit a lot of homers and could play Weaver-ball. Now with very few homers the inability to manufacture runs is even more magnified

 

What do you mean by "manufacture runs?"

 

I can't tell if that was a sarcastic question or not

 

It's not a sarcastic question.

 

I'm with you about the lack of OBP.

 

But it sounds like you're in favor of "manufacturing runs" instead of "Weaver-ball."

 

Players with high OBP are usually also players who hit a lot of homeruns. It sounds to me like you want to have high OBP without relying on homeruns. That would be hard to do.

 

Players in the top 40 in OBP last year with fewer than 15 homers: Luis Castillo, Placido Polanco, Sean Casey, Joe Mauer, and Bill Mueller.

 

I really don't know how we could field a high-OBP team that "manufactured runs" without relying on power.

[rocket]

the OBP thing isn't new, but the team could always hide behind the fact that the team hit a lot of homers and could play Weaver-ball. Now with very few homers the inability to manufacture runs is even more magnified

 

What do you mean by "manufacture runs?"

 

I can't tell if that was a sarcastic question or not

 

It's not a sarcastic question.

 

I'm with you about the lack of OBP.

 

But it sounds like you're in favor of "manufacturing runs" instead of "Weaver-ball."

 

Players with high OBP are usually also players who hit a lot of homeruns. It sounds to me like you want to have high OBP without relying on homeruns. That would be hard to do.

 

Players in the top 40 in OBP last year with fewer than 15 homers: Luis Castillo, Placido Polanco, Sean Casey, Joe Mauer, and Bill Mueller.

 

I really don't know how we could field a high-OBP team that "manufactured runs" without relying on power.

 

I think you missed the point of his post.

 

He meant that the Cubs have always sucked at manufacturing runs, but they could get away with that sometimes due to the fact they also hit a lot of homeruns. Now that the Cubs can't hit homeruns and we still suck at manufacturing runs, our suckiness is even more obvious.

 

I thought he was endorsing Weaverball, if anything.

[ToupeeOnFire]

Good for Peter Gammons.

 

Hopefully this vein of criticism will pick up. I'm tired of hearing about curses and billy goats. Most importantly, and this complaint that seems to resonate the most, I'm tired of hearing about the Tribune not spending enough money. It's a red herring. No team in baseball spends more for less. To borrow a phrase from P.J. O'Rourke, giving money to Jim Hendry to spend is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.

[cheapseats]

the OBP thing isn't new, but the team could always hide behind the fact that the team hit a lot of homers and could play Weaver-ball. Now with very few homers the inability to manufacture runs is even more magnified

 

What do you mean by "manufacture runs?"

 

I can't tell if that was a sarcastic question or not

 

It's not a sarcastic question.

 

I'm with you about the lack of OBP.

 

But it sounds like you're in favor of "manufacturing runs" instead of "Weaver-ball."

 

Players with high OBP are usually also players who hit a lot of homeruns. It sounds to me like you want to have high OBP without relying on homeruns. That would be hard to do.

 

Players in the top 40 in OBP last year with fewer than 15 homers: Luis Castillo, Placido Polanco, Sean Casey, Joe Mauer, and Bill Mueller.

 

I really don't know how we could field a high-OBP team that "manufactured runs" without relying on power.

 

I think you missed the point of his post.

 

He meant that the Cubs have always sucked at manufacturing runs, but they could get away with that sometimes due to the fact they also hit a lot of homeruns. Now that the Cubs can't hit homeruns and we still suck at manufacturing runs, our suckiness is even more obvious.

 

I thought he was endorsing Weaverball, if anything.

 

That's why I asked the question. It wasn't clear to me exactly what he meant. As for "manufacturing runs," is there a team that doesn't suck at it?

Whitey Herzog's teams had it down, and pretty much had to: the Cardinals and Royals were playing on carpet with deep fences. You needed singles and bunts and steals and all that jazz. The Cubs are playing on a slower surface with shorter fences. No excuse for smallball.

[TruffleShuffle]

They were also talking last night on BBTN about the Angels. Their situation looks very similar to the Cubs', a mixture of young and older guys, one key vet (Vlad) carrying the team, very low emphasis on obp, batters not taking enough pitches/working the count, few walks, etc.

 

But, I think with the Cubs it's a combination of the coaches not emphasizing plate discipline, and going after players who don't have it. Bringing in guys like Juan Pierre and Jacque Jones is a signal that the Cubs just don't place any sort of emphasis on OBP in free agency or in the draft. Many of the top prospects in the organization, from Pie to Harvey to Dopirak, have very questionable plate discipline. You very rarely see the teams that emphasize OBP draft a player who doesn't have at least average discipline.

 

Of course, it would help if Pie, Harvey, Dopirak, etc, received the proper coaching once they came into the organization. But, I think that there are some guys who just don't have the instincts or whatever you want to call it, to draw walks and lay off bad pitches. The more you draft players with raw tools and an unrefined chance at the plate, the more player in your system you'll end up with who have no clue how to work the pitcher or lay off curveballs in the durt.

[Derwood]

Thanks Rocket. By Weaver-ball I simply meant "playing for the big inning". Without any real HR threats, there are no big innings. If you can hit a 3 run HR early in the game, that takes pressure off the starting pitcher.

 

Steve Phillips really took shots at the Angels hitting coach for teaching his guys to swing early and often. Clines and Sarge should get equal treatment

[CaliforniaRaisin]

They were also talking last night on BBTN about the Angels and their situation looks very similar to the Cubs', a mixture of young and older guys, one key vet (Vlad) carrying the team, very low emphasis on obp, etc.

 

I was shocked to hear Steve Phillips talk about impatient hitters swinging at pitcher's pitches and stuff out of the zone. It was about the most intelligent 3 minutes he's had as an analyst.

 

I don't know what's gotten into SP, but I've seen a couple of his chats on ESPN lately and in each of them he's made a comment about the importance of taking pitches and getting walks.

 

Quote from yesterday's chat to a question re the Angels:

It has been a disappointment so far, and they are hoping to get Colon back soon. They need help on offense, desperately. the young hitters that were so publicized have not lived up to the hype. Kochman and McPherson don't seem to be factors, and if they are going to win the Angels have to get on base more. They're last in OBP and pitchers per AB. Somehow they have to instill a sense of patience in what is a very aggressive offensive club. Ultimately, they are at least one ane maybe two major bats from having enough offense. I always liked Brandon Wood, the power-hitting SS in the minors and it may be time to get his sock in the lineup, even if they have to play him at third. Otherwise, it could be a long year in Anaheim.

 

He sounded good till the second-to-last sentence. Brandon Wood is having a real rough season down at AA and is showing major flaws in plate discipline. As in, the Angels' offense's biggest problem.

[TruffleShuffle]

He sounded good till the second-to-last sentence. Brandon Wood is having a real rough season down at AA and is showing major flaws in plate discipline. As in, the Angels' offense's biggest problem.

 

What's weird is that Casey Kotchman has always raked and shown great discipline (more BB than K) at the minor league level, but his performance this year has been nothing short of horrid. I guess he's been suffering from some sort of virus, but I also wonder if he's struggling with the big club's emphasis on being a hacker at the plate.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

He sounded good till the second-to-last sentence. Brandon Wood is having a real rough season down at AA and is showing major flaws in plate discipline. As in, the Angels' offense's biggest problem.

 

I wouldn't say plate discipline is his major problem right now. The K's are a bit high, but his OBP is 100 points higher than his AVG (244/344).

[cheapseats]

Thanks Rocket. By Weaver-ball I simply meant "playing for the big inning". Without any real HR threats, there are no big innings. If you can hit a 3 run HR early in the game, that takes pressure off the starting pitcher.

 

Steve Phillips really took shots at the Angels hitting coach for teaching his guys to swing early and often. Clines and Sarge should get equal treatment

 

Ah, good!

 

I'm all for Weaver-ball, too, but from your original post, I thought you were endorsing manufacturing runs with high-OBP players.

 

It's only natural to compare the Cubs to the Angels right now. We're 29th in OBP and they're 30th. We're 30th in SLG and they're 28th.

 

The Angels lead the league in stolen bases. The Cubs are tied for 8th.

 

One big difference: the Angels don't bunt so much, but the Cubs are 4th in MLB.

[TruffleShuffle]

He sounded good till the second-to-last sentence. Brandon Wood is having a real rough season down at AA and is showing major flaws in plate discipline. As in, the Angels' offense's biggest problem.

 

I wouldn't say plate discipline is his major problem right now. The K's are a bit high, but his OBP is 100 points higher than his AVG (244/344).

 

54 strikeouts in 42 games is more than a bit high. His numbers are actually similar to the ones that Dallas McPherson had in the minors. He walked at a pretty good rate, but also struck out way too much. So far, McPherson has been a dud in the bigs, despite showing a good walk rate in the minors. Big league pitchers can take advantage of the inability to make contact in a way that minor league pitchers cannot.

[Drew Doughty]

you know what scares the hell out of me? (i read some of the topic, but don't have any real comments on it. this sort of applies, but not really):

 

That we fire Hendry and Baker, but end up with Steve Phillips and Joe Morgan.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

you know what scares the hell out of me? (i read some of the topic, but don't have any real comments on it. this sort of applies, but not really):

 

That we fire Hendry and Baker, but end up with Steve Phillips and Joe Morgan.

 

6 of one, half dozen of the other.

[TruffleShuffle]

you know what scares the hell out of me? (i read some of the topic, but don't have any real comments on it. this sort of applies, but not really):

 

That we fire Hendry and Baker, but end up with Steve Phillips and Joe Morgan.

 

Why does it matter? Either way, the Cubs suck.