Still Fundamentally Bad

[CubbieRich]

Cub batters only see 11 pitches in final 2 innings. So much for working the counts, taking pitches to let others see a pitcher's stuff and a new way of doing things. And for the XXXX year in a row, we were told that fundamentals were being stressed in spring training.

[BigbadB]

Was their stress on improvement of fundamentals meant to include more patience at the plate? If so, they had no business signing guys like Neifi Perez and Jacque Jones to contracts.

[Dr. Cub]

Was their stress on improvement of fundamentals meant to include more patience at the plate? If so, they had no business signing guys like Neifi Perez and Jacque Jones to contracts.

 

True Dat. True Dat.

[C.C.]

I couldn't agree with you more. I thought for sure we were going to be sound because we had a good fundamentally sound spring. Lead the league in fewest errors. What is it about the Cubs that once players wear the uniform they forget how to play baseball.

[BigbadB]

Dusty stresses aggressiveness at the plate. I don't believe that changed this offseason.

 

I think their idea of improving fundamentals is improving defense and increasing team speed.

[srbin84]

Cub batters only see 11 pitches in final 2 innings. So much for working the counts, taking pitches to let others see a pitcher's stuff and a new way of doing things. And for the XXXX year in a row, we were told that fundamentals were being stressed in spring training.

 

It's called hitting, not walking, dude!

[minnesotacubsfan]

Dusty stresses aggressiveness at the plate. I don't believe that changed this offseason.

 

I think their idea of improving fundamentals is improving defense and increasing team speed.

 

speed kills. just ask dusty

[CubbieRich]

Cub batters only see 11 pitches in final 2 innings. So much for working the counts, taking pitches to let others see a pitcher's stuff and a new way of doing things. And for the XXXX year in a row, we were told that fundamentals were being stressed in spring training.

 

It's called hitting, not walking, dude!

 

You're wrong..it's called 'me-me-me' baseball. The successful teams have players that know how to play the game and how to work the count.

It's called 'smart baseball'.

[Mizzou]

In yesterday's game, Lee saw one pitch in the 8th inning and it was a great pitch to hit. Aramis saw two pitches in that inning and the second one was a great pitch to hit. It's stupid to take pitches just for the sake of taking pitches.

[Danny82]

In yesterday's game, Lee saw one pitch in the 8th inning and it was a great pitch to hit. Aramis saw two pitches in that inning and the second one was a great pitch to hit. It's stupid to take pitches just for the sake of taking pitches.

 

Exactly.

[goonys evil twin]

It's stupid to take pitches just for the sake of taking pitches.

 

Not really.

[Mizzou]

It's stupid to take pitches just for the sake of taking pitches.

 

Not really.

Sure it is. Case in point - Lee's at bat in the 8th inning yesterday. You would have preferred him to take that first pitch just to work the count and have the reliever amass a higher pitch count? That was a great pitch to hit, and he absolutely should have swung at it.

[Danny82]

It's stupid to take pitches just for the sake of taking pitches.

 

Not really.

Sure it is. Case in point - Lee's at bat in the 8th inning yesterday. You would have preferred him to take that first pitch just to work the count and have the reliever amass a higher pitch count? That was a great pitch to hit, and he absolutely should have swung at it.

I honestly can't see how a reliever's pitch count should be of ANY concern to the batter.

[srbin84]

Jeez, that was a joke because Dusty said it.

[goonys evil twin]

It's stupid to take pitches just for the sake of taking pitches.

 

Not really.

Sure it is. Case in point - Lee's at bat in the 8th inning yesterday. You would have preferred him to take that first pitch just to work the count and have the reliever amass a higher pitch count? That was a great pitch to hit, and he absolutely should have swung at it.

 

I don't recall that specific pitch. But your statement that it's stupid to take pitches for the sake of taking pitches is wrong.

 

You should be sitting on your perfect pitch. But I question whether a lot of these first pitch swings are perfect pitches. Aramis for one tends to lunge at junk off the plate and pull pop-ups quite a bit early in the count.

 

I would say it's probably not a good idea to never swing at the first pitch, because sooner or later somebody is going to groove one on the first pitch. But taking pitches, and patience, have been huge problems for the Cubs, for years. And there would be a huge benefit to them taking pitches for the sake of taking pitches.

[LoneStarCubFan]

In yesterday's game, Lee saw one pitch in the 8th inning and it was a great pitch to hit. Aramis saw two pitches in that inning and the second one was a great pitch to hit. It's stupid to take pitches just for the sake of taking pitches.

 

A-freakin'-men.

 

"Working the count" isn't an absolute necessity for every single player in every single at-bat. If you have a good idea of what a guy likes to throw and you're looking for a certain pitch in a certain spot and you get it on the first pitch, hack away. Especially late in a game, when the pitch counts people seem to think mean everything in baseball nowadays, mean less than absolutely nothing.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Jeez, that was a joke because Dusty said it.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I got it.

[Mizzou]

I would say it's probably not a good idea to never swing at the first pitch, because sooner or later somebody is going to groove one on the first pitch. But taking pitches, and patience, have been huge problems for the Cubs, for years. And there would be a huge benefit to them taking pitches for the sake of taking pitches.

Other than getting the opposing pitcher's pitch count up, what are the benefits? Seeing more of the pitcher's stuff? The hitters should know who and what they're facing already. And the benefit or a higher opposing pitch count doesn't offset the potential cost of not swinging at a good pitch. Especially when you factor in the various bullpens and how good some of them are. Given a choice between swinging at a good first pitch and letting the good first pitch go by, I'd hope the Cubs players swing at the good first pitch every time.

[goonys evil twin]

"Working the count" isn't an absolute necessity for every single player in every single at-bat.

 

The Cubs go the extreme in the other direction though. Barely anybody ever works the count.

 

It's like begging for some objective analytical research to govern some of their personel decisions. I'm not asking them to be strict "moneyballers", I'm asking them to stop being such strict anti-sabr types. I'm not asking them to make every count go 3-2, I'm asking them to take some pitches as opposed to swinging at everything.

 

Cubs pitchers put up with the most pitcher abuse, they give up some of the most walks. Cubs hitters take very few pitches and take some of the fewest walks in the league. They are extreme in one direction, that's never good.

[goonys evil twin]

Given a choice between swinging at a good first pitch and letting the good first pitch go by, I'd hope the Cubs players swing at the good first pitch every time.

 

That's not the choice. Most first pitches are not great pitches to hit.

[Danny82]

Given a choice between swinging at a good first pitch and letting the good first pitch go by, I'd hope the Cubs players swing at the good first pitch every time.

 

That's not the choice. Most first pitches are not great pitches to hit.

 

I'm not sure how you can say that with any sense of certainty. Pitchers obviously don't want to have to fall behind in the count if they don't have to.

 

That said, I think the first pitch should be treated like a 3-1 or 2-0 pitch...the batter should wait for a pitch in his zone and drive it if it comes to that zone. If it doesn't, even though it might be a strike, lay off.

[Mizzou]

Given a choice between swinging at a good first pitch and letting the good first pitch go by, I'd hope the Cubs players swing at the good first pitch every time.

 

That's not the choice. Most first pitches are not great pitches to hit.

Well, I agree that most first pitches aren't great pitches to hit. But that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

 

I said that it's stupid to take pitches just for the sake of taking pitches. What are the benefits of doing so that you spoke of?

[David]

Jeez, that was a joke because Dusty said it.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I got it.

 

As did I.

[scs_paradise]

Given a choice between swinging at a good first pitch and letting the good first pitch go by, I'd hope the Cubs players swing at the good first pitch every time.

 

That's not the choice. Most first pitches are not great pitches to hit.

 

Goony's right, the first pitch is always intended to be the pitcher's pitch. If he misses and its down the middle great, but its never intended to just be a strike. Stoney has gone on and on about this in games when he used to do color.

[BobRoss139]

Its funny that no one ever complains when someone jacks a first pitch homer onto Waveland...