You cannot underestimate the importance of speed

[srbin84]

Tim, the speed team can reasonably be assembled. Your team cannot be. In the reality of building a baseball team, the power option you have to choose is Burnitz, Alou etc.

[imb]

Tim, the speed team can reasonably be assembled. Your team cannot be. In the reality of building a baseball team, the power option you have to choose is Burnitz, Alou etc.

 

that's not the point of this conversation at all.

[Guest]

Tim, the speed team can reasonably be assembled. Your team cannot be. In the reality of building a baseball team, the power option you have to choose is Burnitz, Alou etc.

So that's the beeping noise people make when they're backing up...

[srbin84]

Tim, the speed team can reasonably be assembled. Your team cannot be. In the reality of building a baseball team, the power option you have to choose is Burnitz, Alou etc.

 

that's not the point of this conversation at all.

 

The point is that on a large scale, home runs are better, like with a club that hits over 300 of them. My argument was that, and I'm just using these numbers as an example: a team with 175 home runs and speed is better than a 225 home run team with little speed/baserunning ability.

[abuck1220]

Tim, the speed team can reasonably be assembled. Your team cannot be. In the reality of building a baseball team, the power option you have to choose is Burnitz, Alou etc.

 

that's not the point of this conversation at all.

 

The point is that on a large scale, home runs are better, like with a club that hits over 300 of them. My argument was that, and I'm just using these numbers as an example: a team with 175 home runs and speed is better than a 225 home run team with little speed/baserunning ability.

 

as long we're making proclamations w/ nothing to back them up...a team that has 104 sac bunts is better than a team that has 34 wild pitches.

[goonys evil twin]

Tim, the speed team can reasonably be assembled. Your team cannot be. In the reality of building a baseball team, the power option you have to choose is Burnitz, Alou etc.

 

that's not the point of this conversation at all.

 

The point is that on a large scale, home runs are better, like with a club that hits over 300 of them. My argument was that, and I'm just using these numbers as an example: a team with 175 home runs and speed is better than a 225 home run team with little speed/baserunning ability.

 

And there's absolutely no proof to support that claim. OBP comes into play long before speed. If a team hits 225 homeruns and is ranked high in OBP, they will usually beat teams that hit fewer homeruns but have speed, assuming pitching is equal.

[Guest]

Tim, the speed team can reasonably be assembled. Your team cannot be. In the reality of building a baseball team, the power option you have to choose is Burnitz, Alou etc.

 

that's not the point of this conversation at all.

 

The point is that on a large scale, home runs are better, like with a club that hits over 300 of them. My argument was that, and I'm just using these numbers as an example: a team with 175 home runs and speed is better than a 225 home run team with little speed/baserunning ability.

Please see the BK article I posted earlier.

[neely crenshaw]

speed is great but if it is not on the bases it does little. power can be a factor even if they are not on base(changes pitches and strategy from the batters box)

i like the fact that we have improved speed, but more so that we improved defense and obp. this will help aram and dlee continue to produce.

this was opening day...we have won opening day four straight years and have had disappointing years 3 of the 4.

our offense will go as pierre goes. he gets on...they guys behind him will get fastballs and produce. he doesn't get on and we are back to waiting for home runs from lee and aram.

[Magnetic Curses]

I'm saying that an offense with power and speed wins more games than an offense just with exceptional power, even though the one with exceptional power will likely score more runs.

 

Power and speed might score more than just power, or it might not. Speed doesn't guarantee more scoring. OBP guarantees more scoring. That is where the Cubs have been lacking. And you don't have to have great speed to get great OBP, but it's still nice to have.

 

I'm saying that even if the power lineup scores more runs, and I concede that they probably will, the team with speed will still win more games.

 

this sounds like a common assumption among people that don't understand that runs are scored by not making outs.

[Magnetic Curses]

Tim, the speed team can reasonably be assembled. Your team cannot be. In the reality of building a baseball team, the power option you have to choose is Burnitz, Alou etc.

 

that's not the point of this conversation at all.

 

The point is that on a large scale, home runs are better, like with a club that hits over 300 of them. My argument was that, and I'm just using these numbers as an example: a team with 175 home runs and speed is better than a 225 home run team with little speed/baserunning ability.

 

which team makes less outs, on the average?

 

i will take a slow guy who's good at not making outs at the plate over a fast guy who makes a lot of outs, but can score from first on a double. the fast guy will use his speed far less than the slow guy will use his ability to not make an out.

 

is that clear enough for you? because that's what OBP measures, the ability to NOT make an out, which the single most important factor in scoring runs. you can have all the speed and "fundamental" players in the world--if they're bad at not making outs, then they've missed the absolute point of real fundamental hitting.

 

people think so hard and rigidly traditional about baseball and how to win it, that they miss the thing staring them in the face. the only thing more important than OBP is the effetciveness of starting pitching.

 

speed is far, far down the list. is it good to have guys with speed? of course, but only if they possess the ability to get on base first and foremost.

[Guest]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

[CubDad4Ever]

Not using all the tools in your toolbox (stolen bases , sacrifices etc) on a basis chosen by the manager, based on his talent. Is every bit as ridged a line of thinking as saying OBP means , never attempt an steal , because it brings a potential out. I coach football and would love to put my paycheck on the line to play someone who would never attempt a pass, because to out of three results could be bad. I understand the math well. But there is a reason teams have gone to great reliance on d and speed. In a series of well pitched games, even high obp teams need to maximize run opportunites against great pitching.

Do the math , but dont eliminate weapons. Coach L

[goonys evil twin]

Not using all the tools in your toolbox (stolen bases , sacrifices etc) on a basis chosen by the manager, based on his talent. Is every bit as ridged a line of thinking as saying OBP means , never attempt an steal , because it brings a potential out. I coach football and would love to put my paycheck on the line to play someone who would never attempt a pass, because to out of three results could be bad. I understand the math well. But there is a reason teams have gone to great reliance on d and speed. In a series of well pitched games, even high obp teams need to maximize run opportunites against great pitching.

Do the math , but dont eliminate weapons. Coach L

 

Not attempting a pass in football is dumb (unless you have the most unstoppable running game out there), not attempting a SB is not dumb.

[abuck1220]

Not using all the tools in your toolbox (stolen bases , sacrifices etc) on a basis chosen by the manager, based on his talent. Is every bit as ridged a line of thinking as saying OBP means , never attempt an steal , because it brings a potential out. I coach football and would love to put my paycheck on the line to play someone who would never attempt a pass, because to out of three results could be bad. I understand the math well. But there is a reason teams have gone to great reliance on d and speed. In a series of well pitched games, even high obp teams need to maximize run opportunites against great pitching.

Do the math , but dont eliminate weapons. Coach L

 

Not attempting a pass in football is dumb (unless you have the most unstoppable running game out there), not attempting a SB is not dumb.

 

yeah, the 'two out of three outcomes are bad' theory is ridiculous. the two bad outcomes apply to running the ball as well.

[abuck1220]

I'm saying that an offense with power and speed wins more games than an offense just with exceptional power, even though the one with exceptional power will likely score more runs.

 

wow. i strongly disagree.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

It depends on what your team payroll is. Defense and speed move up the list with a tight payroll (which limits the pool of available players). OBP has become more expensive over the last couple years. Defense and speed have become cheaper, where they were initially overvalued, especially defense.

[Guest]

Not using all the tools in your toolbox (stolen bases , sacrifices etc) on a basis chosen by the manager, based on his talent. Is every bit as ridged a line of thinking as saying OBP means , never attempt an steal , because it brings a potential out. I coach football and would love to put my paycheck on the line to play someone who would never attempt a pass, because to out of three results could be bad. I understand the math well. But there is a reason teams have gone to great reliance on d and speed. In a series of well pitched games, even high obp teams need to maximize run opportunites against great pitching.

Do the math , but dont eliminate weapons. Coach L

Interesting analogy. In football, if coaches could keep the ball on the ground and get first downs without passing, they would do it every time because there is much less risk. It is only because defenses would put 11 men in the box and stuff the run that the passing game evolved in the first place. As a coach, you do what you think gives you the best chance of scoring, maintaining ball control and the other factors that go in to that decision.

 

Baseball is a bit different, but the same general rule applies. It is really dumb to try and steal if it is a poor percentage play. On the other hand, if I were opposing a Maddux/Piazza battery I would run every time I put someone on first base. Or second for that matter. But the number of times where speed makes a critical difference between success and failure is much smaller than it is glorified to be. Chicks may dig the stolen base, the extra base taken from first to third and scoring on a close play at the plate, but the extra runs scored from the sum of these things don't add up to putting the best OBP, Power & defensive personnel possible on the field.

[Guest]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

It depends on what your team payroll is. Defense and speed move up the list with a tight payroll (which limits the pool of available players). OBP has become more expensive over the last couple years. Defense and speed have become cheaper, where they were initially overvalued, especially defense.

And yet Furcal gets an outrageous contract because of what? Speed & Defense.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

It depends on what your team payroll is. Defense and speed move up the list with a tight payroll (which limits the pool of available players). OBP has become more expensive over the last couple years. Defense and speed have become cheaper, where they were initially overvalued, especially defense.

And yet Furcal gets an outrageous contract because of what? Speed & Defense.

 

No. Furcal got that contract b/c a new GM wanted to make a splash. He was the best FA position player available.

[Guest]

I'm saying that an offense with power and speed wins more games than an offense just with exceptional power, even though the one with exceptional power will likely score more runs.

 

wow. i strongly disagree.

Well, if you can put together a team with great OBP, power and speed, I'd like it more than if you put together an equivalent team minus the speed. If that's the point, then yeah, okay, I can agree with that. If the argument is the listed "speed team" back a few pages, I think the only reason that team would not finish last is because of Lee and Abreu, where speed is just the finishing touch on what makes them such great players.

[Guest]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

It depends on what your team payroll is. Defense and speed move up the list with a tight payroll (which limits the pool of available players). OBP has become more expensive over the last couple years. Defense and speed have become cheaper, where they were initially overvalued, especially defense.

And yet Furcal gets an outrageous contract because of what? Speed & Defense.

 

No. Furcal got that contract b/c a new GM wanted to make a splash. He was the best FA position player available.

okaaayyy, what made him the best FA position player available? Answer without using the words speed, leadoff or defense, please.

[DesMoinesCub]

Does this work...

 

Furcal is fast, has a good glove and bats at the top of the order. :D

[abuck1220]

I'm saying that an offense with power and speed wins more games than an offense just with exceptional power, even though the one with exceptional power will likely score more runs.

 

wow. i strongly disagree.

Well, if you can put together a team with great OBP, power and speed, I'd like it more than if you put together an equivalent team minus the speed. If that's the point, then yeah, okay, I can agree with that. If the argument is the listed "speed team" back a few pages, I think the only reason that team would not finish last is because of Lee and Abreu, where speed is just the finishing touch on what makes them such great players.

 

the part i disagree with is the idea that the speed team will win more games even if the power team scores more runs (assuming pitching is equal).

 

he seems to be saying that if both teams have the same pitching, the fast team (scoring, let's say, 4 runs a game) will win more games than the higher scoring power team (scoring 5 runs a game).

[Guest]

Does this work...

 

Furcal is fast, has a good glove and bats at the top of the order. :D

Umm, right.

[Guest]

I'm saying that an offense with power and speed wins more games than an offense just with exceptional power, even though the one with exceptional power will likely score more runs.

 

wow. i strongly disagree.

Well, if you can put together a team with great OBP, power and speed, I'd like it more than if you put together an equivalent team minus the speed. If that's the point, then yeah, okay, I can agree with that. If the argument is the listed "speed team" back a few pages, I think the only reason that team would not finish last is because of Lee and Abreu, where speed is just the finishing touch on what makes them such great players.

 

the part i disagree with is the idea that the speed team will win more games even if the power team scores more runs (assuming pitching is equal).

 

he seems to be saying that if both teams have the same pitching, the fast team (scoring, let's say, 4 runs a game) will win more games than the higher scoring power team (scoring 5 runs a game).

Yeah, I don't think he's read that article I keep pointing out (here it is again).