Angel Pagan = Carlos Beltran?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

This will be a fun post to revisit in August. A lot of people are giving strong opinions on both sides without really even seeing him play. I love it.

 

You mean a couple of weeks after he's MVP of the All-Star Game?

[Blueheart05]

By "bust," I'm talking about the comparison of Pagan with Scott McClain...

 

I can also think of scenarios where Pagan is our starting CF (it's not too far fetched). His role on the 2006 Cubs is a backup. I don't see why we can't also think about his potential future role on this team. Considering CF is not locked up for the future (and the alternative is another Minor League guy who still has holes in his game), there maybe room for Pagan as a starter next year. We're just thinking about possibilities...

 

That is not a possibility, it's a disastrous option. Pagan could start for the team. It would suck and the team would suffer because of it, but he could do it. Ryan Theriot could start at third base if Aramis walks or is injured. Neifi could start at SS. All these things could happen, and they would all suck if they did. If his future role on this team is starter it most likely means Pie is a bust and Hendry fails to field a good OF, again.

 

All of that is yet to be seen. My point is it's a realistic possibility.

[mg420]

The Mets compared him to Beltran. I think the comparison was used here to accentuate his potential for diamond-in-the-rough status. I also don't see anything wrong with saying he has the potential to be better than he's shown in the Minors.

 

The Mets supposedly compared him to Beltran (although it was probably one overly zealous drunken scout and not the organization) and then somebody started this thread saying he's heard that before and that there is some sort of credence to that comparison. There is nothing to base that comparison on. Pagan can't hold Beltran's jock. He'll never come close to being as good as Beltran. Being a better major leaguer than minor leaguer is one thing. It wouldn't take much for Pagan to have better numbers in the majors, because his minor numbers weren't good. But talking about him being a diamond in the rough who turns into Beltran, or anything close to that is just unrealistic.

 

i agree that it is virtually impossible for pagan to put up #'s anywhere near beltran but again he doesnt have to to be able to contribute. how would a .280 ave. with 15 hr's & 40 sb's look in cf? even if he never gets close to those #'s starting, he can still be a good 4th of.

[mg420]

btw restovich and sing are more likely to be this year's version of die hard than pagan. at least pagan is a switch hitter with great speed who can play all 3 of positions as opposed to being a big right handed hitter who either strikes out or hits a homer and can only play 1b.

[goonys evil twin]

LOL, you are not understanding me. I'm not saying he's the next Beltran. My point has always been that he's a backup guy who might have the opportunity (on this team) to start.

 

I am not misunderstanding you. I know you didn't make the Beltran comparison. Others have. And that is what is ridiculous.

 

He might have the opportunity to start, but that will only be if all the good options dry up and Hendry is left with nothing better.

[goonys evil twin]

btw restovich and sing are more likely to be this year's version of die hard than pagan. at least pagan is a switch hitter with great speed who can play all 3 of positions as opposed to being a big right handed hitter who either strikes out or hits a homer and can only play 1b.

 

The Cubs bench is in dire need of a slugging RH bat.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

btw restovich and sing are more likely to be this year's version of die hard than pagan. at least pagan is a switch hitter with great speed who can play all 3 of positions as opposed to being a big right handed hitter who either strikes out or hits a homer and can only play 1b.

 

The Cubs bench is in dire need of a slugging RH bat.

 

Let's put Aramis on the bench and Theriot at 3B. Problem solved.

[ThePenguin11]

I think Eric Gagne is a perect example of that. He came into the league and was failing as a starter and was on his way out. The Dodgers put him at closer and, poof, he became a star.

 

So, what your saying is...we should make Pagan our closer?

[badger1679666666]

It seems like Angel Pagan has run over a couple people's dogs and stole their girlfriends/wives.

[OleMissCub]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

[Chocolate Milk]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

 

No, no, no. Angel Pagan = Ty Cobb.

[Danny82]

I'm not bashing Pagan, I'm discussing his future with a sense of realism, unlike those who choose to dream of him as something he's not. Pagan is actually exactly the type of player I want on the bench; young, cheap, with some talent and not a complete waste in the OBP department. I love Pagan because he's not Jose Macias. Now, they just need somebody on the bench who can be a threat from the right side.

 

It seems like we agree on him.

 

One thing that is strange is that he's hit 4 HR's in 37 AB's in the spring while only hitting 15 in 2048AB's over his career. Granted spring training number don't mean much but I wonder if there is anything behind that (change of approach, hitting mechanics, etc..) or if it's just dumb luck.

 

Arizona weather.

 

Pagan is not a guy I want to see on the bench for the Cubs THIS YEAR. IMO They need someone with some pop. I'd prefer Sing or Restovich.

 

Pagen might make a good 5th outfielder but the Cubs need someone capeable of hitting a HR on the bench.

 

It looks like Mabry and Walker are guys off the bench that are capable of hitting a home run.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing Restovich there too though, so that they can have a RH who can do it.

 

But, Pagan gives them the speedy defensive OF who is nice to have off the bench as well.

[mg420]

btw restovich and sing are more likely to be this year's version of die hard than pagan. at least pagan is a switch hitter with great speed who can play all 3 of positions as opposed to being a big right handed hitter who either strikes out or hits a homer and can only play 1b.

 

The Cubs bench is in dire need of a slugging RH bat.

 

it seems silly to me to waste a 25 man slot on a 1 dimensional bench guy. people are talking about how the mets basically gave pagan away so he cant be that good but i think restovich was released by the devil rays so what does that say about him?

[goonys evil twin]

btw restovich and sing are more likely to be this year's version of die hard than pagan. at least pagan is a switch hitter with great speed who can play all 3 of positions as opposed to being a big right handed hitter who either strikes out or hits a homer and can only play 1b.

 

The Cubs bench is in dire need of a slugging RH bat.

 

it seems silly to me to waste a 25 man slot on a 1 dimensional bench guy. people are talking about how the mets basically gave pagan away so he cant be that good but i think restovich was released by the devil rays so what does that say about him?

 

What is silly is not having any pop on the bench. The Cubs have none. There is nothing wrong with having guys who bring a limited skill set to the bench. That's why they are on the bench. Neifi can only field. Blanco can only catch. As long as all your guys don't all specialize in the same one dimension, your bench can have 1 dimensional guys.

[ThePenguin11]

Can I just link to yesterday's rain on Pagan's parade thread to save us all the trouble of doing it again here?

 

I just don't see why people have to lie to themselves, and everybody else, about the likelihood of Pagan turning into a good starting position player. You can be happy for a guy to reach a lifelong dream of making a team without being delusional about his future.

 

I don't see the point of relentlessly bashing Pagan because some are hoping he could turn out to be a decent bench guy. If he does, great, if he doesn't, we'll get rid of him and bring someone else up. Pagan's overall effect on the team is minimal in any event.

 

I'm not really sure who said he was going to be a starting position player for us.

 

People have compared him to Carlos Beltran. People have said "we just don't know", people have said he could turn into a good starter (whether it's on the Cubs or not is pointless).

 

I'm not bashing Pagan, I'm discussing his future with a sense of realism, unlike those who choose to dream of him as something he's not. Pagan is actually exactly the type of player I want on the bench; young, cheap, with some talent and not a complete waste in the OBP department. I love Pagan because he's not Jose Macias. Now, they just need somebody on the bench who can be a threat from the right side.

 

The Mets compared him to Beltran. I think the comparison was used here to accentuate his potential for diamond-in-the-rough status. I also don't see anything wrong with saying he has the potential to be better than he's shown in the Minors.

 

The whole "He's the next ______" is the stupidest statement in baseball and it's one of the most common. Every other week we hear these and their totally unsubstantiated by fact or any real comparison. This time it was "Pagan is much compared to his fellow Puerto Rican, Carlos Beltran". They make the comparison because he's another Puerto Rican outfielder. Their games however are completely incommensurable. In the annals of baseball stupidity, I can remember other such comparisons as, Aramis could be the next Manny (Same last name), Kris Benson could be the next Tom Glavine (Looked the same in the face, but didn't have any real similarities, oh, and Benson's not even a lefty), Kerry Wood could be the next Clemens, Ryan (Because he's from Texas - not because of his throwing style or pitching style - because then they're nothing alike)...The list goes on. For those who watch poker on television, another brilliant comparison would be Phil Ivey: The Tiger Woods of Poker - because he's a young black guy. Not because they have parallels between their games - if you could even come up with them in poker and golf. The whole thing is just silly, and it's been getting old for a long time.

[OleMissCub]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

 

No, no, no. Angel Pagan = Ty Cobb.

 

No no no....Cobb stunk. He got those .420, .409, .401, .390, and .389 seasons playing in an era when the pitchers lobbed the ball underhand up there. Considering the fact that the average player in those days hit .250, Cobb stunk, but everyone else must have really stunk.

 

Regardless, Pagan is a far superior talent to Cobb. He plays in the modern era where athletes are big and strong. Disregard the fact that Cobb himself was 6'2, 200 and his friend Honus Wagner was 6'0, 210....those guys certainly weren't athletes.

 

Pagan easily takes the cake to Cobb. Probably better the Mays too. You see, Mays played 40 years after Cobb, that means he played in an era that was better than Cobb, which makes him better. Therefore, Pagan plays 40 years after Mays....so he must be better.

[minnesotacubsfan]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

 

No, no, no. Angel Pagan = Ty Cobb.

 

 

aaaaaww maaaaaannnnn..I dont want that racist jerk on the Cubs!!!

[rocket]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

 

No, no, no. Angel Pagan = Ty Cobb.

 

No no no....Cobb stunk. He got those .420, .409, .401, .390, and .389 seasons playing in an era when the pitchers lobbed the ball underhand up there. Considering the fact that the average player in those days hit .250, Cobb stunk, but everyone else must have really stunk.

 

Regardless, Pagan is a far superior talent to Cobb. He plays in the modern era where athletes are big and strong. Disregard the fact that Cobb himself was 6'2, 200 and his friend Honus Wagner was 6'0, 210....those guys certainly weren't athletes.

 

Pagan easily takes the cake to Cobb. Probably better the Mays too. You see, Mays played 40 years after Cobb, that means he played in an era that was better than Cobb, which makes him better. Therefore, Pagan plays 40 years after Mays....so he must be better.

 

i bet he could school chamberlain in basketball to boot

[Chocolate Milk]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

 

No, no, no. Angel Pagan = Ty Cobb.

 

No no no....Cobb stunk. He got those .420, .409, .401, .390, and .389 seasons playing in an era when the pitchers lobbed the ball underhand up there. Considering the fact that the average player in those days hit .250, Cobb stunk, but everyone else must have really stunk.

 

Regardless, Pagan is a far superior talent to Cobb. He plays in the modern era where athletes are big and strong. Disregard the fact that Cobb himself was 6'2, 200 and his friend Honus Wagner was 6'0, 210....those guys certainly weren't athletes.

 

Pagan easily takes the cake to Cobb. Probably better the Mays too. You see, Mays played 40 years after Cobb, that means he played in an era that was better than Cobb, which makes him better. Therefore, Pagan plays 40 years after Mays....so he must be better.

 

I think Cobb played before they invented wood.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

 

No, no, no. Angel Pagan = Ty Cobb.

 

No no no....Cobb stunk. He got those .420, .409, .401, .390, and .389 seasons playing in an era when the pitchers lobbed the ball underhand up there. Considering the fact that the average player in those days hit .250, Cobb stunk, but everyone else must have really stunk.

 

Regardless, Pagan is a far superior talent to Cobb. He plays in the modern era where athletes are big and strong. Disregard the fact that Cobb himself was 6'2, 200 and his friend Honus Wagner was 6'0, 210....those guys certainly weren't athletes.

 

Pagan easily takes the cake to Cobb. Probably better the Mays too. You see, Mays played 40 years after Cobb, that means he played in an era that was better than Cobb, which makes him better. Therefore, Pagan plays 40 years after Mays....so he must be better.

 

i bet he could school chamberlain in basketball to boot

 

But only if they played in the 70's or 80's.

[minnesotacubsfan]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

 

No, no, no. Angel Pagan = Ty Cobb.

 

No no no....Cobb stunk. He got those .420, .409, .401, .390, and .389 seasons playing in an era when the pitchers lobbed the ball underhand up there. Considering the fact that the average player in those days hit .250, Cobb stunk, but everyone else must have really stunk.

 

Regardless, Pagan is a far superior talent to Cobb. He plays in the modern era where athletes are big and strong. Disregard the fact that Cobb himself was 6'2, 200 and his friend Honus Wagner was 6'0, 210....those guys certainly weren't athletes.

 

Pagan easily takes the cake to Cobb. Probably better the Mays too. You see, Mays played 40 years after Cobb, that means he played in an era that was better than Cobb, which makes him better. Therefore, Pagan plays 40 years after Mays....so he must be better.

 

I think Cobb played before they invented wood.

 

 

actually, Cobb INVENTED wood. not becuse he was tired of using arms to bat with, but becuase he couldnt find bones strong enough to stand up to his powerful swing....

[Chocolate Milk]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

 

No, no, no. Angel Pagan = Ty Cobb.

 

No no no....Cobb stunk. He got those .420, .409, .401, .390, and .389 seasons playing in an era when the pitchers lobbed the ball underhand up there. Considering the fact that the average player in those days hit .250, Cobb stunk, but everyone else must have really stunk.

 

Regardless, Pagan is a far superior talent to Cobb. He plays in the modern era where athletes are big and strong. Disregard the fact that Cobb himself was 6'2, 200 and his friend Honus Wagner was 6'0, 210....those guys certainly weren't athletes.

 

Pagan easily takes the cake to Cobb. Probably better the Mays too. You see, Mays played 40 years after Cobb, that means he played in an era that was better than Cobb, which makes him better. Therefore, Pagan plays 40 years after Mays....so he must be better.

 

I think Cobb played before they invented wood.

 

 

actually, Cobb INVENTED wood. not becuse he was tired of using arms to bat with, but becuase he couldnt find bones strong enough to stand up to his powerful swing....

 

I actually heard something about that. He used to use a bat made of solid quartz but the ball was occasionally vaporized on contact thus reducing the chances Cobb had to intentionally spike people. He needed a material with some give and the rest is history.

[ThePenguin11]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

 

No, no, no. Angel Pagan = Ty Cobb.

 

No no no....Cobb stunk. He got those .420, .409, .401, .390, and .389 seasons playing in an era when the pitchers lobbed the ball underhand up there. Considering the fact that the average player in those days hit .250, Cobb stunk, but everyone else must have really stunk.

 

Regardless, Pagan is a far superior talent to Cobb. He plays in the modern era where athletes are big and strong. Disregard the fact that Cobb himself was 6'2, 200 and his friend Honus Wagner was 6'0, 210....those guys certainly weren't athletes.

 

Pagan easily takes the cake to Cobb. Probably better the Mays too. You see, Mays played 40 years after Cobb, that means he played in an era that was better than Cobb, which makes him better. Therefore, Pagan plays 40 years after Mays....so he must be better.

 

I think Cobb played before they invented wood.

 

They had to use their own arms for bats back then.

 

EDIT: Dagnabbit, got trumped. That's what I get for not finishing the thread.

Edited March 29, 2006 by ThePenguin11

[Chocolate Milk]

Angel Pagan = Willie Mays

 

No, no, no. Angel Pagan = Ty Cobb.

 

No no no....Cobb stunk. He got those .420, .409, .401, .390, and .389 seasons playing in an era when the pitchers lobbed the ball underhand up there. Considering the fact that the average player in those days hit .250, Cobb stunk, but everyone else must have really stunk.

 

Regardless, Pagan is a far superior talent to Cobb. He plays in the modern era where athletes are big and strong. Disregard the fact that Cobb himself was 6'2, 200 and his friend Honus Wagner was 6'0, 210....those guys certainly weren't athletes.

 

Pagan easily takes the cake to Cobb. Probably better the Mays too. You see, Mays played 40 years after Cobb, that means he played in an era that was better than Cobb, which makes him better. Therefore, Pagan plays 40 years after Mays....so he must be better.

 

I think Cobb played before they invented wood.

 

They had to use their own arms for bats back then.

 

In those days, men were men.

[OleMissCub]

In those days, men were men.

 

Funny cuz I can actually use a real Cobb quote as a reply "In my day, baseball was about as gentlemanly as a kick in the crotch"