Why are Wilson and Walker so undervalued?

[nilodnayr]

In the past year and during the offseason it seems as though Craig Wilson and Walker have been subtely badmouthed by their respective teams, and based on their performance to this point undeservedly so. And additionally as both their names come up in trade talk, and it just stays talk with no action, it seems as though the rest of the league undervalues them as well. The only thing I can think of is the overvalued aspect of defense that is causing these players to be so unwanted but I wanted to hear others opinions. Ohh and as I've all but given up hope on the cubs this year, I'm now rooting for the Tribe, who just happen to have two holes on their team...first and second base. Shapiro is one of the best minds out there, he could pick up both players for spare parts and make the AL central race really interesting.

[erik316wttn]

I think the whole "Walker is bad with the glove" thing snowballed. First it seemed to be "Eh, he's okay. He's no Sandberg, though." Then it was "He could stand to be better" Then it was "Boy, he's really bad over there" and finally now it seems to be "My God, he's quite possibly the worst defensive player in the history of baseball."

 

Ok, I'm exaggerating, but I think people are making FAR too much of a deal over his percieved lack of defense. They don't seem to realize that what he brings to the table with his bat far outwieghs his shortcomings in the field.

 

Our best chance to win is with Walker at 2nd, not Neifi or Hairston.

 

Oh, and apparently he has a "bad attitude." You know, because when the Cubs are in the middle of losing 9 of 11 and a reporter asks him "What do you think of the Cubs play recently?" he's not supposed to say "Well, right now we suck."

 

Sorry, I'm in a sarcastic mood tonight.

[nilodnayr]

I think the whole "Walker is bad with the glove" thing snowballed. First it seemed to be "Eh, he's okay. He's no Sandberg, though." Then it was "He could stand to be better" Then it was "Boy, he's really bad over there" and finally now it seems to be "My God, he's quite possibly the worst defensive player in the history of baseball."

 

Ok, I'm exaggerating, but I think people are making FAR too much of a deal over his percieved lack of defense. They don't seem to realize that what he brings to the table with his bat far outwieghs his shortcomings in the field.

 

Our best chance to win is with Walker at 2nd, not Neifi or Hairston.

 

Oh, and apparently he has a "bad attitude." You know, because when the Cubs are in the middle of losing 9 of 11 and a reporter asks him "What do you think of the Cubs play recently?" he's not supposed to say "Well, right now we suck."

 

Sorry, I'm in a sarcastic mood tonight.

Yeah I agree with you. Actually the Walker sucks at defense thing started in Minnesota and then was "validated" by Pokey Reese in Boston. And I also agree that I like him very much and respect him for speaking his mind. And by overall value of defense, I didnt mean that either sucks at their position, just meant that neither are great.

[TheDude]

Defense is far more important to people inside the baseball world than fans who crunch numbers. It's that simple.

[Jehrico]

I wouldn't mind Hairston getting the fulltime 2b. I'd prefer to keep Walker, but I don't think we're loosing all that much going to Hairston, not enough to significantly impact the season. Maybe a Walker for Wilson swap? I think Wilson could help us more as a 4th OF/Platoon partner for the Frenchman, and that help would be more than the dropoff from TWalk to Hairston. Make both clubs happy.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Wilson and Walker's strengths are not readily visible when you watch games. They take walks, work the count, and hit for some extra bases. They don't have great speed or bodybuilder physiques, they just hit and walk and sometimes(more often in Wilson's case), strike out. To the common fan(and maybe some front office people, I don't know), those qualities aren't seen as being as valuable as they are, and certainly not as "sexy" as being a 30-30 guy or something. Add in the fact that neither are stellar defensively(Wilson especially), and it adds up to them being valued for less than what they are.

 

Regarding Walker's defense and the 2003 season. Any reputation he got was far from undeserved after '03. He was AWFUL defensively in '03, an 84 Rate is just obscenely bad. However, another thing the common fan(and maybe some front office people, I don't know) doesn't recognize or acknowledge is that defense is not a static ability. Common perception of Pat Burrell is that he had a great start to his career(offensively speaking), then had a down year, but was able to bounce back. The same way with Walker. He had a down defensive year in '03, but bounced back to previous levels(which is a below average defender). However, due to public perception as fielding being a static ability, and the fact that Walker's norms were far from gold glove caliber, he has a bit of an unfair stigma as a very poor defender.

[katway]

Defense is getting greater emphasis now days. Defense holds a lot of value because even when a player is having a bad day at the plate, he can contribute defensively. If guys like Walker or Wilson are having bad days at the plate, they really don't have much value to the team on that given day. In Walker's case, second base is generally considered a defense first position where defense is strongly valued. Soriano is exhibit number 1 for this proposition.

[snoodmonger]

Watchin the games last year, it seemed like Walker was brutal at turning double plays. Him and Nomar together almost never turned one, it seemed. I'm not saying it should keep him from the lineup, but it did seem that way.

[rawaction]

Watchin the games last year, it seemed like Walker was brutal at turning double plays. Him and Nomar together almost never turned one, it seemed. I'm not saying it should keep him from the lineup, but it did seem that way.

 

Yeah, that's really his major defensive flaw to me. He's not quick on the turn and doesn't have a real strong arm to gun it over there quickly enough. Easily bottom 1/3 turning the DP.

[cjbucks]

Wilson and Walker's strengths are not readily visible when you watch games. They take walks, work the count, and hit for some extra bases. They don't have great speed or bodybuilder physiques, they just hit and walk and sometimes(more often in Wilson's case), strike out. To the common fan(and maybe some front office people, I don't know), those qualities aren't seen as being as valuable as they are, and certainly not as "sexy" as being a 30-30 guy or something. Add in the fact that neither are stellar defensively(Wilson especially), and it adds up to them being valued for less than what they are.

 

Regarding Walker's defense and the 2003 season. Any reputation he got was far from undeserved after '03. He was AWFUL defensively in '03, an 84 Rate is just obscenely bad. However, another thing the common fan(and maybe some front office people, I don't know) doesn't recognize or acknowledge is that defense is not a static ability. Common perception of Pat Burrell is that he had a great start to his career(offensively speaking), then had a down year, but was able to bounce back. The same way with Walker. He had a down defensive year in '03, but bounced back to previous levels(which is a below average defender). However, due to public perception as fielding being a static ability, and the fact that Walker's norms were far from gold glove caliber, he has a bit of an unfair stigma as a very poor defender.

 

Is Walker really that patient? His walk rate in 2005 appears to me to be .0722 vs. the 2005 NL average of .0845.

[wade]

Watchin the games last year, it seemed like Walker was brutal at turning double plays. Him and Nomar together almost never turned one, it seemed. I'm not saying it should keep him from the lineup, but it did seem that way.

 

How many games did he and Nomar play together last year? 15-20? Not saying he's great at turning DP's, but looking at those two together won't provide much, in my opinion.

[DiamondMind]

While I don't support a trade for Matos or other marginal players, I don't want Walker starting either. Half the time you're on the field, you're playing defense. All of our pitching except Maddux throws a lot of groundballs, as well. I'm tired of Walker's attitude, lax defense, and my candidate for starting and for the #2 hole is Hairston Jr., who is hitting the cover off the ball in ST. Pierre-Hairston is a lot of contact and speed at the top of the order.

[USSoccer]

Instead of trading Walker, just platoon him with Hairston, or at worst have Walker be your first option off the bench late in games. There's no reason to trade a valuable offensive player who doesn't make much money. You could PH him, DH him in AL parks, and have him spell Hairston and he'd get 300 AB.

[DiamondMind]

Wilson and Walker's strengths are not readily visible when you watch games. They take walks, work the count, and hit for some extra bases. They don't have great speed or bodybuilder physiques, they just hit and walk and sometimes(more often in Wilson's case), strike out. To the common fan(and maybe some front office people, I don't know), those qualities aren't seen as being as valuable as they are, and certainly not as "sexy" as being a 30-30 guy or something. Add in the fact that neither are stellar defensively(Wilson especially), and it adds up to them being valued for less than what they are.

 

Regarding Walker's defense and the 2003 season. Any reputation he got was far from undeserved after '03. He was AWFUL defensively in '03, an 84 Rate is just obscenely bad. However, another thing the common fan(and maybe some front office people, I don't know) doesn't recognize or acknowledge is that defense is not a static ability. Common perception of Pat Burrell is that he had a great start to his career(offensively speaking), then had a down year, but was able to bounce back. The same way with Walker. He had a down defensive year in '03, but bounced back to previous levels(which is a below average defender). However, due to public perception as fielding being a static ability, and the fact that Walker's norms were far from gold glove caliber, he has a bit of an unfair stigma as a very poor defender.

 

For one thing, a game is won on grass not paper. Secondly, neither Walker or Wilson are exceptional and earning walks.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Wilson and Walker's strengths are not readily visible when you watch games. They take walks, work the count, and hit for some extra bases. They don't have great speed or bodybuilder physiques, they just hit and walk and sometimes(more often in Wilson's case), strike out. To the common fan(and maybe some front office people, I don't know), those qualities aren't seen as being as valuable as they are, and certainly not as "sexy" as being a 30-30 guy or something. Add in the fact that neither are stellar defensively(Wilson especially), and it adds up to them being valued for less than what they are.

 

Regarding Walker's defense and the 2003 season. Any reputation he got was far from undeserved after '03. He was AWFUL defensively in '03, an 84 Rate is just obscenely bad. However, another thing the common fan(and maybe some front office people, I don't know) doesn't recognize or acknowledge is that defense is not a static ability. Common perception of Pat Burrell is that he had a great start to his career(offensively speaking), then had a down year, but was able to bounce back. The same way with Walker. He had a down defensive year in '03, but bounced back to previous levels(which is a below average defender). However, due to public perception as fielding being a static ability, and the fact that Walker's norms were far from gold glove caliber, he has a bit of an unfair stigma as a very poor defender.

 

For one thing, a game is won on grass not paper. Secondly, neither Walker or Wilson are exceptional and earning walks.

 

Yes, the game is played on the field. Don't really understand what relevance that has.

 

Granted walker isn't exceptional at walking, but again that goes back to the reputation he has along with his defense, whether he deserves it or not. Wilson, however, is above average at drawing walks for his career, and was especially exceptional last year. He deserves that reputation.

[rawaction]

While I don't support a trade for Matos or other marginal players, I don't want Walker starting either. Half the time you're on the field, you're playing defense. All of our pitching except Maddux throws a lot of groundballs, as well. I'm tired of Walker's attitude, lax defense, and my candidate for starting and for the #2 hole is Hairston Jr., who is hitting the cover off the ball in ST. Pierre-Hairston is a lot of contact and speed at the top of the order.

 

First, more than half the time you are on the field is defense. You field for 3 outs 9 times a game. You come to bat 3-4 times per game. Secondly, for the simple fact that a player has so few ABs per game, and the team as a whole has so few ABs in order to score a run (only 3 outs per inning), offense is more important than defense.

[CubDad4Ever]

I also think Walkers lack of durability the past few years has contributed to the teams evaluation of him. Coach L

[ltb]

I also think Walkers lack of durability the past few years has contributed to the teams evaluation of him. Coach L

 

past few years? he was signed as a backup for in 2004 - how on earth would that contribute to the team's evaluation? it sure seems like you're just saying the ONE freak injury last year with carlos lee has effected the two years walker has been a cub.

[CubDad4Ever]

he has played less games each of the past two years. that is a numerical regression. His age increase and limited fielding ability are also factors sited . Those are facts , whether they meet your or my opinion of Walker is not relevent. Coach L

[Jehrico]

I also think Walkers lack of durability the past few years has contributed to the teams evaluation of him. Coach L

 

past few years? he was signed as a backup for in 2004 - how on earth would that contribute to the team's evaluation? it sure seems like you're just saying the ONE freak injury last year with carlos lee has effected the two years walker has been a cub.

 

Walker likely is not a 150+ game a year guy anymore. The regression is longer than CubDad4Ever states. He played in 155 games in '02, to 144 in '03, to 121 in '04 (okay, he wasa backup that year, but if I recall correctly, he did have a brief DL appearance that year), then played 110 games last year, with another DL appearance.

 

I wouldn't call it a sure thing that he can't handle a whole season anymore, but I sure as heck wouldn't bet that he could either. I think there's reasonable doubt that he can do it in any given year from here on out.

[erik316wttn]

While I don't support a trade for Matos or other marginal players, I don't want Walker starting either. Half the time you're on the field, you're playing defense. All of our pitching except Maddux throws a lot of groundballs, as well. I'm tired of Walker's attitude, lax defense, and my candidate for starting and for the #2 hole is Hairston Jr., who is hitting the cover off the ball in ST. Pierre-Hairston is a lot of contact and speed at the top of the order.

 

What attitude?

[David]

While I don't support a trade for Matos or other marginal players, I don't want Walker starting either. Half the time you're on the field, you're playing defense. All of our pitching except Maddux throws a lot of groundballs, as well. I'm tired of Walker's attitude, lax defense, and my candidate for starting and for the #2 hole is Hairston Jr., who is hitting the cover off the ball in ST. Pierre-Hairston is a lot of contact and speed at the top of the order.

 

What attitude?

 

Dude.. He like talks too much to the media and tells the truth, man!!!111oneone

[DiamondMind]

While I don't support a trade for Matos or other marginal players, I don't want Walker starting either. Half the time you're on the field, you're playing defense. All of our pitching except Maddux throws a lot of groundballs, as well. I'm tired of Walker's attitude, lax defense, and my candidate for starting and for the #2 hole is Hairston Jr., who is hitting the cover off the ball in ST. Pierre-Hairston is a lot of contact and speed at the top of the order.

 

What attitude?

 

What attitude? He has a big, fat mouth, and has been traded numerous times.

[Jehrico]

While I don't support a trade for Matos or other marginal players, I don't want Walker starting either. Half the time you're on the field, you're playing defense. All of our pitching except Maddux throws a lot of groundballs, as well. I'm tired of Walker's attitude, lax defense, and my candidate for starting and for the #2 hole is Hairston Jr., who is hitting the cover off the ball in ST. Pierre-Hairston is a lot of contact and speed at the top of the order.

 

What attitude?

 

What attitude? He has a big, fat mouth, and has been traded numerous times.

 

examples of things he's said that backs up the bad attitude claim?

[erik316wttn]

While I don't support a trade for Matos or other marginal players, I don't want Walker starting either. Half the time you're on the field, you're playing defense. All of our pitching except Maddux throws a lot of groundballs, as well. I'm tired of Walker's attitude, lax defense, and my candidate for starting and for the #2 hole is Hairston Jr., who is hitting the cover off the ball in ST. Pierre-Hairston is a lot of contact and speed at the top of the order.

 

What attitude?

 

What attitude? He has a big, fat mouth, and has been traded numerous times.

 

There are other players who have been traded numerous times. Just because a guy has been on several teams does not necessarily mean he's a bad influence. Look at Reggie Sanders.

 

And his "big fat mouth?" When a reporter asks him in the midst of a bad season what he thinks so far, is he supposed to lie? Is he supposed to say they're playing well?