I wouldn't be surprised to see Williamson moved

[goonys evil twin]

I don't understand why either of you are down on Wuertz. This is only his second year working out of the pen, and he logged 75 appearances, and managed a 3.81 ERA. He actually got better in the second half, where he put up a .192 BAA and a .319 over 32 appearances (where he had a .243 BAA and a 4.38 ERA over 43 appearances in the first half, suggesting maybe he was a little overused early on). His walk rate was improved in the second half (16 BBs over 36.2 innings, vs 24 in 39 innings before the break). He had a great second half and ended the year strong (.109 BAA in Sep and Oct). I thought he made alot of strides last year. I'm looking for him to have a monster year out of the pen this year. It seemed obvious to me that last year he finally adjusted to the role (remember, he was a starter in the minors until '04) and was gaining alot of confidence in his stuff.

 

I think it's more that a healthy Williamson > Wuertz. I don't think anyone's really "down" on Wuertz. We have a surplus in the pen right now, and Wuertz is right on the fringe. It's a good thing.

 

The two posters I replied to said "I have zero confidence in Novoa or Wuertz," and the other "i agree. wuertz and novoa are the weak links." If that's not down on Wuertz, I don't know what is. I agree though, that a healthy Williamson is tough to beat. If both of those two guys have the type of years I think they're capable of behind Howry, Eyre, and Dempster, then we could have the best pen we've ever had.

 

I agree with you on Wuertz. Last offseason, Bruce Miles was pimping Wuertz left and right, talking about his mental makeup, namely his refusal to give in to hitters, and his ability and willingness to throw strikes. Wuertz is a valuable commodity for this team. Talk of releasing him is outragously irresponsible. Bullpen arms are highly valuable in this market, and given their short shelf life, it's foolish to give up on one bullpen arms who have had some success. I don't want to trade Williamson, but I would much rather trade him for prospects than simply release Wuertz. Baker should be less demanding of Wuertz this season, especially early, when he ran the guy out there several times a week. Howry and Eyre's biggest value to the team is probably that they push Wuertz back to 6th/7th inning status, and should give Dusty confidence to pull tired starters earlier in games. I don't think either guy is really much better than Ohman, Wuertz or Williamson, but their presence means those guys won't be overused early as well.

[ThePenguin11]

I wouldn't be surprised to see bullpen arms moved, but I'd be surprised if it was Williamson, at least until well after the season is underway. The guy is the least known quantity in the bullpen. His past success suggest the possibility that he could be a good reliever again, but his arm troubles and unimpressive return last season create enormous doubt. Nobody is going to give up much of anything for him now. And the Cubs have no business trading him away for prospects anyway. This is a team that has to win now. Unless somebody inexplicably offers up an absolute stud prospect, there's no way you consider trading decent major leaguers that can help the team right now.

 

I would think it's far more likely that some of the younger relievers would be moved.

 

But it'd be absurd to release Wuertz, and I wouldn't see the point in doing the same with Novoa, even though I have next to no confidence in him.

 

I was only stating that if, given a choice, I'd rather let Wuertz or Novoa (Novoa sooner than Wuertz) rather than to trade Williamson for a near-worthless prospect. Williamson can be a shut-down middle-to-setup reliever and I just don't see that kind of ceiling for Novoa or Wuertz - two pitchers who will not be on a fully-healthy Cubs pitching roster.

[ThePenguin11]

I agree that it is a small sample size, but 13 Ks in 8.3 innings is impressive none the less. I'm not saying he's back. But I'm optimistic that he can be a strong contributor to this bullpen.

 

Even when Williamson was giving up the runs his K and BB rates were awesome. He wasn't giving up the HR either, so I'm optomistic as well. I think that his upside to helping a contender is way higher than the other two. I just couldn't trust either in the stretch run of a playoff run.

[goonys evil twin]

I wouldn't be surprised to see bullpen arms moved, but I'd be surprised if it was Williamson, at least until well after the season is underway. The guy is the least known quantity in the bullpen. His past success suggest the possibility that he could be a good reliever again, but his arm troubles and unimpressive return last season create enormous doubt. Nobody is going to give up much of anything for him now. And the Cubs have no business trading him away for prospects anyway. This is a team that has to win now. Unless somebody inexplicably offers up an absolute stud prospect, there's no way you consider trading decent major leaguers that can help the team right now.

 

I would think it's far more likely that some of the younger relievers would be moved.

 

But it'd be absurd to release Wuertz, and I wouldn't see the point in doing the same with Novoa, even though I have next to no confidence in him.

 

I was only stating that if, given a choice, I'd rather let Wuertz or Novoa (Novoa sooner than Wuertz) rather than to trade Williamson for a near-worthless prospect. Williamson can be a shut-down middle-to-setup reliever and I just don't see that kind of ceiling for Novoa or Wuertz - two pitchers who will not be on a fully-healthy Cubs pitching roster.

 

And then what happens next year when somebody else can name their price with Wuertz while Williamson leaves for the big bucks? Williamson for a near worthless prospect isn't a realistic part of the discussion, so it's silly to even bring up.

 

There is no such thing as a fully-healthy Cubs pitching roster. Wuertz should definitely be on this team. Novoa isn't in his class.

[ThePenguin11]

Well, it's a good thing we don't have to release Wuertz. I don't think he stinks, I just think he's on the bubble right now and that Williamson will be better. Wuertz makes for good depth, and if needed can step in. He won't have any value in a trade however. Let's all just be content with the fact that we have great bullpen depth right now and that, as someone posted earlier, since there's no such thing as a healthy cubs roster - count on him as good depth.

[goonys evil twin]

Well, it's a good thing we don't have to release Wuertz. I don't think he stinks, I just think he's on the bubble right now and that Williamson will be better. Wuertz makes for good depth, and if needed can step in. He won't have any value in a trade however. Let's all just be content with the fact that we have great bullpen depth right now and that, as someone posted earlier, since there's no such thing as a healthy cubs roster - count on him as good depth.

 

Wuertz wouldn't have any value in a trade? How so? Relievers are extremely sought after. The Arthur Rhodes trade shows you what middle relief can get you in trades. Rhodes is an old inconsistent reliever who also costs a lot more than Wuertz. Even if you couldn't get a lot for MW straight up, you could certainly package him for something meaningful.

 

If Wuertz was on the White Sox last year people would talk about him a lot more than just as good depth. He pitched well, and could help a lot of teams, including big market perennial winners like Atlanta, Yankees and Red Sox, not to mention Philly and the Mets, who all have to rely on guys who aren't better than Wuertz in their bullpen.

 

At verious times in their careers, Dempster, Williamson, Howry and Eyre were all less effective than Wuertz was last year. We can't be certain all 4 of them will be better next year, and should not pretend it's a guarantee.

[Tim]

I don't understand why either of you are down on Wuertz. This is only his second year working out of the pen, and he logged 75 appearances, and managed a 3.81 ERA. He actually got better in the second half, where he put up a .192 BAA and a .319 over 32 appearances (where he had a .243 BAA and a 4.38 ERA over 43 appearances in the first half, suggesting maybe he was a little overused early on). His walk rate was improved in the second half (16 BBs over 36.2 innings, vs 24 in 39 innings before the break). He had a great second half and ended the year strong (.109 BAA in Sep and Oct). I thought he made alot of strides last year. I'm looking for him to have a monster year out of the pen this year. It seemed obvious to me that last year he finally adjusted to the role (remember, he was a starter in the minors until '04) and was gaining alot of confidence in his stuff.

 

I think it's more that a healthy Williamson > Wuertz. I don't think anyone's really "down" on Wuertz. We have a surplus in the pen right now, and Wuertz is right on the fringe. It's a good thing.

 

The two posters I replied to said "I have zero confidence in Novoa or Wuertz," and the other "i agree. wuertz and novoa are the weak links." If that's not down on Wuertz, I don't know what is. I agree though, that a healthy Williamson is tough to beat. If both of those two guys have the type of years I think they're capable of behind Howry, Eyre, and Dempster, then we could have the best pen we've ever had.

1980 - Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, Willie Hernandez, Bill Caudill & Dick Tidrow in the pen at one time.

[RynoRules]

I don't understand why either of you are down on Wuertz. This is only his second year working out of the pen, and he logged 75 appearances, and managed a 3.81 ERA. He actually got better in the second half, where he put up a .192 BAA and a .319 over 32 appearances (where he had a .243 BAA and a 4.38 ERA over 43 appearances in the first half, suggesting maybe he was a little overused early on). His walk rate was improved in the second half (16 BBs over 36.2 innings, vs 24 in 39 innings before the break). He had a great second half and ended the year strong (.109 BAA in Sep and Oct). I thought he made alot of strides last year. I'm looking for him to have a monster year out of the pen this year. It seemed obvious to me that last year he finally adjusted to the role (remember, he was a starter in the minors until '04) and was gaining alot of confidence in his stuff.

 

I think it's more that a healthy Williamson > Wuertz. I don't think anyone's really "down" on Wuertz. We have a surplus in the pen right now, and Wuertz is right on the fringe. It's a good thing.

 

The two posters I replied to said "I have zero confidence in Novoa or Wuertz," and the other "i agree. wuertz and novoa are the weak links." If that's not down on Wuertz, I don't know what is. I agree though, that a healthy Williamson is tough to beat. If both of those two guys have the type of years I think they're capable of behind Howry, Eyre, and Dempster, then we could have the best pen we've ever had.

1980 - Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, Willie Hernandez, Bill Caudill & Dick Tidrow in the pen at one time.

 

Schnikes!!! I forgot about that one. Two of the five or six best relievers of all time (arguably) and a guy who won the Cy four years later for one of the greatest single-season teams of all time (84' Tigers).

[schutll]

Wuertz biggest problem , at least early in the year was when he went into his second inning of pitching. I don't remember how long the streak was, but it was well into the season before he allowed his first inherited base runner to score, and he was brought into some pretty tough situations. Another year of maturity will be a great asset for him.

[erik316wttn]

Keep the pen like it is right now. It's as good as I've ever remembered it.

[Kingmanarama]

1980 - Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, Willie Hernandez, Bill Caudill & Dick Tidrow in the pen at one time.

 

Buckner won the batting title that year, too. And the Cubs were 64-98.

 

Bad chemistry, obviously.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

1980 - Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, Willie Hernandez, Bill Caudill & Dick Tidrow in the pen at one time.

 

Big Lee wasn't a real contributor until 1981 though, he appeared in a few innings late in the season 1980 and that's it.

 

1984 wasn't too bad, the combination of Big Lee, Tim Stoddard and Warren Brusstar did a very nice job. You could argue Stoddard's 1984 was about the best setup man performance we've ever had with the Cubs. There have been others with lower ERAs and WHIPs, but Tim got the job done, 10 wins and 7 saves are a lot of fireman points. Not bad with Smith in front of you.

[Magnetic Curses]

I don't understand why either of you are down on Wuertz. This is only his second year working out of the pen, and he logged 75 appearances, and managed a 3.81 ERA. He actually got better in the second half, where he put up a .192 BAA and a .319 over 32 appearances (where he had a .243 BAA and a 4.38 ERA over 43 appearances in the first half, suggesting maybe he was a little overused early on). His walk rate was improved in the second half (16 BBs over 36.2 innings, vs 24 in 39 innings before the break). He had a great second half and ended the year strong (.109 BAA in Sep and Oct). I thought he made alot of strides last year. I'm looking for him to have a monster year out of the pen this year. It seemed obvious to me that last year he finally adjusted to the role (remember, he was a starter in the minors until '04) and was gaining alot of confidence in his stuff.

 

I think it's more that a healthy Williamson > Wuertz. I don't think anyone's really "down" on Wuertz. We have a surplus in the pen right now, and Wuertz is right on the fringe. It's a good thing.

 

The two posters I replied to said "I have zero confidence in Novoa or Wuertz," and the other "i agree. wuertz and novoa are the weak links." If that's not down on Wuertz, I don't know what is. I agree though, that a healthy Williamson is tough to beat. If both of those two guys have the type of years I think they're capable of behind Howry, Eyre, and Dempster, then we could have the best pen we've ever had.

 

insofar as the pen looks like this:

 

ohman

rusch

howry

williamson

eyre

dempster

 

novoa and wuertz would be the weak links, and the odd men out. wuertz has put up some good peripherals, but his walks are still too high and he doesn't get an exceptional amount of GBs. if williamson returns to form, he's one of the top setup men in the game. hopefully, his arm is ready to go.

 

i don't know what hendry's plan for rusch is, and if miller returns in may, there won't be enough spots to go around.

 

if miller is counted on to start, then it's williams, novoa, and wuertz who are looking for jobs. i don't see the cubs bumping ohman.

 

needless to say, it's not a bad problem to have.

[goonys evil twin]

insofar as the pen looks like this:

 

ohman

rusch

howry

williamson

eyre

dempster

 

novoa and wuertz would be the weak links, and the odd men out. wuertz has put up some good peripherals, but his walks are still too high and he doesn't get an exceptional amount of GBs. if williamson returns to form, he's one of the top setup men in the game. hopefully, his arm is ready to go.

 

i don't know what hendry's plan for rusch is, and if miller returns in may, there won't be enough spots to go around.

 

if miller is counted on to start, then it's williams, novoa, and wuertz who are looking for jobs. i don't see the cubs bumping ohman.

 

needless to say, it's not a bad problem to have.

 

A) Rusch is a weaker link than Wuertz.

B) Rusch is going to be in the starting rotation to begin the season.

C) 7 relievers is a big possibility, especially since they probably don't even have 6 competent bench players going to camp.

D) None of those other relievers is a consistently effective enough pitcher to count Wuertz as the odd man out.

[Illini Iceman]

insofar as the pen looks like this:

 

ohman

rusch

howry

williamson

eyre

dempster

 

novoa and wuertz would be the weak links, and the odd men out. wuertz has put up some good peripherals, but his walks are still too high and he doesn't get an exceptional amount of GBs. if williamson returns to form, he's one of the top setup men in the game. hopefully, his arm is ready to go.

 

i don't know what hendry's plan for rusch is, and if miller returns in may, there won't be enough spots to go around.

 

if miller is counted on to start, then it's williams, novoa, and wuertz who are looking for jobs. i don't see the cubs bumping ohman.

 

needless to say, it's not a bad problem to have.

 

A) Rusch is a weaker link than Wuertz.

B) Rusch is going to be in the starting rotation to begin the season.

C) 7 relievers is a big possibility, especially since they probably don't even have 6 competent bench players going to camp.

D) None of those other relievers is a consistently effective enough pitcher to count Wuertz as the odd man out.

 

I wouldn't be surprised for them to start the season:

 

SP

Zambrano

Prior

Maddux

Rusch

Williams

 

RP

Dempster

Eyre

Howry

Ohman

Williamson

Wuertz

Wellemeyer

 

When Wood is ready they would have to make a tough decision since Wellemeyer I believe is out of options and it would be a shame to lose him for nothing.

[Jehrico]

insofar as the pen looks like this:

 

ohman

rusch

howry

williamson

eyre

dempster

 

novoa and wuertz would be the weak links, and the odd men out. wuertz has put up some good peripherals, but his walks are still too high and he doesn't get an exceptional amount of GBs. if williamson returns to form, he's one of the top setup men in the game. hopefully, his arm is ready to go.

 

i don't know what hendry's plan for rusch is, and if miller returns in may, there won't be enough spots to go around.

 

if miller is counted on to start, then it's williams, novoa, and wuertz who are looking for jobs. i don't see the cubs bumping ohman.

 

needless to say, it's not a bad problem to have.

 

A) Rusch is a weaker link than Wuertz.

B) Rusch is going to be in the starting rotation to begin the season.

C) 7 relievers is a big possibility, especially since they probably don't even have 6 competent bench players going to camp.

D) None of those other relievers is a consistently effective enough pitcher to count Wuertz as the odd man out.

 

I wouldn't be surprised for them to start the season:

 

SP

Zambrano

Prior

Maddux

Rusch

Williams

 

RP

Dempster

Eyre

Howry

Ohman

Williamson

Wuertz

Wellemeyer

 

When Wood is ready they would have to make a tough decision since Wellemeyer I believe is out of options and it would be a shame to lose him for nothing.

 

I think Welly will be traded for a PTBNL before ST ends. I also think they like Novoa better than Welly.

 

I don't look for much from him this year, but I think he's going to turn into a pretty good reliever over the next 2-3 years. Hopefully it will happen before we trade him for something as he's excess in our pen.

[baseball7897]

I dont see why Hendry would move Williamson, he is a better option than any other guy in the minors.

[Kyle]

I see Williamson like I view Walker. Unless the team is improved, you don't move him...certainly not for prospects.

 

That's the way I see it too. I do think however one of our relievers will be traded, but I doubt its Williamson. Welly, Novoa, maybe.

[katway]

I'd be very surprised to see Williamson moved. First, I doubt any team would give up much for him until he has proven himself healthy for at least half a season. Second, if he does prove himself in the first half of the season, the Cubs aren't going to trade him after they bid their time unless some team substantially overpays.