Sabermetrics and Race

[brfahey]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

[Magnetic Curses]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

i don't think it has anything to do with race.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

African-American: Barry Bonds

Latin American: Albert Pujols

 

I could cite many more examples.

 

 

Sabermetrics don't care about the race of the player - just raw numbers. There's a stereotype that African-American and Latin American players are too aggressive at the plate (i.e. not talking walks) and since sabermetrics fans highly values walks that leads people to believe they're racist.

Edited December 30, 2005 by CardsFanInChiTown

[brfahey]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

i don't think it has anything to do with race.

 

I didn't say that it did. Thanks for the thoughtful repsonse.

[brfahey]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

African-American: Barry Bonds

Latin American: Albert Pujols

 

I could cite many more examples.

 

 

Sabermetrics don't care about the race of the player - just raw numbers. There's a stereotype that African-American and Latin American players are too aggressive at the plate (i.e. not talking walks).

 

Can you cite some non-superstar guys? This is not a challenge. I am just trying to see if there is any evidence to back up what I have termed as an very unscientific look.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Well, if ARod, Pujols, Cabrera, Bonds, Vlad, DLee (last year), Dontrelle, Pedro, Manny, etc. aren't up to par with "sabermetrics", then there is a racist element. I find it hard to believe that would be the case, however.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

African-American: Barry Bonds

Latin American: Albert Pujols

 

I could cite many more examples.

 

 

Sabermetrics don't care about the race of the player - just raw numbers. There's a stereotype that African-American and Latin American players are too aggressive at the plate (i.e. not talking walks).

 

Can you cite some non-superstar guys? This is not a challenge. I am just trying to see if there is any evidence to back up what I have termed as an very unscientific look.

 

I don't understand the question. How would be citing non-superstar guys help?

[brfahey]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

African-American: Barry Bonds

Latin American: Albert Pujols

 

I could cite many more examples.

 

 

Sabermetrics don't care about the race of the player - just raw numbers. There's a stereotype that African-American and Latin American players are too aggressive at the plate (i.e. not talking walks).

 

Can you cite some non-superstar guys? This is not a challenge. I am just trying to see if there is any evidence to back up what I have termed as an very unscientific look.

 

I don't understand the question. How would be citing non-superstar guys help?

 

I guess as follows: I hear the names on non-superstar guys like Wilkerson, Giles, Todd Walker bandied around as valuable under sabermetric theories but not non-superstar player of color. I don't know if that clears it up.

 

Again, I repeat that I am not stating that sabermetrics is racist in any way.

[nick23]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

I think you've been reading a little too much Scoop Jackson. I see no correlation at all between race and sabermetrics. Any true fan of a sports team doesn't give a crap what color the players on the team are, as long as they perform.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

With regards to latino players, I think you see that fewer of them that have qualities that "sabermetricians". When it comes to scouting central america, plate discipline isn't very high up the list of qualities scouts are looking for. You see many more toolsy players that are scouted than refined players like those who came through the US high school and college ranks(whether it's Todd Walker, Ray Durham, or Alex Rodriguez). I don't think it's any conscious decision by the people who value those qualities, it's just the nature of the scouting.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

African-American: Barry Bonds

Latin American: Albert Pujols

 

I could cite many more examples.

 

 

Sabermetrics don't care about the race of the player - just raw numbers. There's a stereotype that African-American and Latin American players are too aggressive at the plate (i.e. not talking walks).

 

Can you cite some non-superstar guys? This is not a challenge. I am just trying to see if there is any evidence to back up what I have termed as an very unscientific look.

 

I don't understand the question. How would be citing non-superstar guys help?

 

I guess as follows: I hear the names on non-superstar guys like Wilkerson, Giles, Todd Walker bandied around as valuable under sabermetric theories but not non-superstar player of color. I don't know if that clears it up.

 

Again, I repeat that I am not stating that sabermetrics is racist in any way.

 

 

 

According to VORP Giles was the 18th most valuable player in baseball with 65.1 so to me he's pretty elite. I would say Raul Ibanez or Ray Durham would be underrated "Moneyball" guys. That's a tough question to answer because you want players that are good but not too good. I don't think you are calling anyone racist, it's an interesting question.

[brfahey]

With regards to latino players, I think you see that fewer of them that have qualities that "sabermetricians". When it comes to scouting central america, plate discipline isn't very high up the list of qualities scouts are looking for. You see many more toolsy players that are scouted than refined players like those who came through the US high school and college ranks(whether it's Todd Walker, Ray Durham, or Alex Rodriguez). I don't think it's any conscious decision by the people who value those qualities, it's just the nature of the scouting.

 

Thank you for actually taking the time to read the posts and give the matter some real thought. Like I said, I am just trying to get the lay of the land in this area.

[pete the dog]

First, it's worth pointing out that sabermetric analysis are based on objective observations that have nothing to do with race. Neither Bill James nor Billy Beane cares what a player looks like--that's obvious by looking at the A's roster of fat guys. Second, I'm not ready to concede that what you say is true. I'd want to see some good stats first on whether white guys really benefit disproportionately in sabermetric analyses. It may be the case that slow, fat white guys that nobody thought were any good but that look good in sabermetric analyses are simply more salient and get more attention because they do not *look* like athletes.

 

But there are some reasons why Black players and Latin players may not do as well in sabermetric stats. For example, sabermetrics places very little value on speed. It's possible that more black than white players have made it to the big leagues, in part, based on speed. Slow guys are undervalued according to sabermetrics, and it may be that a higher proportion of slow guys happen to be white. Slow black and Latino guys have also been undervalued, like David Ortiz was before he exploded. But there may be fewer of them.

 

Another factor is plate discipline. One often hears Latino players say something to the effect of "I ain't going to walk my way off this island." There is a culture in Latino baseball, that taking bases on balls will not help you in the eyes of scouts. And, for the most part, they have been correct in this assumption: scouts don't tend to care for walks. In sabermetric analyses, walks are great. So, this may be a reason why Latino players seem to be underrepresented in sabermetric analyses.

 

There are probably lots of other reasons. But the basic point is that sabermetrics does not value speed or defense to the extent that MLB scouts usually do and it values OBP much more than scouts usually do. This may differentially benefit/harm white/black/Latino players.

 

Finally, note that the standard old boy scout analysis that looks for a particular body shape, speed, and other characteristics that are stereotypic of what they think an "athlete" should look like may well discriminate against white guys. The purpose of sabermetric analyses is to correct for these and ALL appearance-based stereotypes and rely instead on objective facts.

[BigbadB]

First, it's worth pointing out that sabermetric analysis are based on objective observations that have nothing to do with race. Neither Bill James nor Billy Beane cares what a player looks like--that's obvious by looking at the A's roster of fat guys. Second, I'm not ready to concede that what you say is true. I'd want to see some good stats first on whether white guys really benefit disproportionately in sabermetric analyses. It may be the case that slow, fat white guys that nobody thought were any good but that look good in sabermetric analyses are simply more salient and get more attention because they do not *look* like athletes.

 

But there are some reasons why Black players and Latin players may not do as well in sabermetric stats. For example, sabermetrics places very little value on speed. It's possible that more black than white players have made it to the big leagues, in part, based on speed. Slow guys are undervalued according to sabermetrics, and it may be that a higher proportion of slow guys happen to be white. Slow black and Latino guys have also been undervalued, like David Ortiz was before he exploded. But there may be fewer of them.

 

Another factor is plate discipline. One often hears Latino players say something to the effect of "I ain't going to walk my way off this island." There is a culture in Latino baseball, that taking bases on balls will not help you in the eyes of scouts. And, for the most part, they have been correct in this assumption: scouts don't tend to care for walks. In sabermetric analyses, walks are great. So, this may be a reason why Latino players seem to be underrepresented in sabermetric analyses.

 

There are probably lots of other reasons. But the basic point is that sabermetrics does not value speed or defense to the extent that MLB scouts usually do and it values OBP much more than scouts usually do. This may differentially benefit/harm white/black/Latino players.

 

Finally, note that the standard old boy scout analysis that looks for a particular body shape, speed, and other characteristics that are stereotypic of what they think an "athlete" should look like may well discriminate against white guys. The purpose of sabermetric analyses is to correct for these and ALL appearance-based stereotypes and rely instead on objective facts.

 

Well done! Pete The Dog + Davis, CA = Vet School? Just curious.

[pete the dog]

Thanks. Nope, not vet school. Just a guy who had a dog named Pete!

[brfahey]

First, it's worth pointing out that sabermetric analysis are based on objective observations that have nothing to do with race. Neither Bill James nor Billy Beane cares what a player looks like--that's obvious by looking at the A's roster of fat guys. Second, I'm not ready to concede that what you say is true. I'd want to see some good stats first on whether white guys really benefit disproportionately in sabermetric analyses. It may be the case that slow, fat white guys that nobody thought were any good but that look good in sabermetric analyses are simply more salient and get more attention because they do not *look* like athletes.

 

But there are some reasons why Black players and Latin players may not do as well in sabermetric stats. For example, sabermetrics places very little value on speed. It's possible that more black than white players have made it to the big leagues, in part, based on speed. Slow guys are undervalued according to sabermetrics, and it may be that a higher proportion of slow guys happen to be white. Slow black and Latino guys have also been undervalued, like David Ortiz was before he exploded. But there may be fewer of them.

 

Another factor is plate discipline. One often hears Latino players say something to the effect of "I ain't going to walk my way off this island." There is a culture in Latino baseball, that taking bases on balls will not help you in the eyes of scouts. And, for the most part, they have been correct in this assumption: scouts don't tend to care for walks. In sabermetric analyses, walks are great. So, this may be a reason why Latino players seem to be underrepresented in sabermetric analyses.

 

There are probably lots of other reasons. But the basic point is that sabermetrics does not value speed or defense to the extent that MLB scouts usually do and it values OBP much more than scouts usually do. This may differentially benefit/harm white/black/Latino players.

 

Finally, note that the standard old boy scout analysis that looks for a particular body shape, speed, and other characteristics that are stereotypic of what they think an "athlete" should look like may well discriminate against white guys. The purpose of sabermetric analyses is to correct for these and ALL appearance-based stereotypes and rely instead on objective facts.

 

Thanks for that response. Just two things: (1) for the third or fourth time I never said sabermetrics was racist in spirit or anlaysis. Just wondered about stuff you have attempted, thoughfully, to answer. (2) I am not sure what I said that you are not ready to concede as true. Otherwise a useeful post.

[Magnetic Curses]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

i don't think it has anything to do with race.

 

 

I didn't say that it did. Thanks for the thoughtful repsonse.

 

no problem. i just wonder what kind of empirical data that you have to support:

 

My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin.

[pete the dog]

I didn't say that you said it was racist. But you did say this:

 

"My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin."

 

That's not a claim of racism, but it is a claim that white, black, and Latino players are somehow valued differently by sabermetrics. That is the claim that I am not ready to concede.

[Magnetic Curses]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

African-American: Barry Bonds

Latin American: Albert Pujols

 

I could cite many more examples.

 

 

Sabermetrics don't care about the race of the player - just raw numbers. There's a stereotype that African-American and Latin American players are too aggressive at the plate (i.e. not talking walks).

 

Can you cite some non-superstar guys? This is not a challenge. I am just trying to see if there is any evidence to back up what I have termed as an very unscientific look.

 

I don't understand the question. How would be citing non-superstar guys help?

 

I guess as follows: I hear the names on non-superstar guys like Wilkerson, Giles, Todd Walker bandied around as valuable under sabermetric theories but not non-superstar player of color. I don't know if that clears it up.

 

Again, I repeat that I am not stating that sabermetrics is racist in any way.

 

 

 

According to VORP Giles was the 18th most valuable player in baseball with 65.1 so to me he's pretty elite. I would say Raul Ibanez or Ray Durham would be underrated "Moneyball" guys. That's a tough question to answer because you want players that are good but not too good. I don't think you are calling anyone racist, it's an interesting question.

 

milton bradley as well.

[BigbadB]

That's not a claim of racism, but it is a claim that white, black, and Latino players are somehow valued differently by sabermetrics. That is the claim that I am not ready to concede.

 

I agree. Would I rather have Milton Bradley or Brad Wilkerson? If "attitude" were not a part of the equation, I'd take Bradley over Wilkerson.

 

Would I rather have Giles or Abreu? Abreu because of the age disparity.

 

For every sabermetric superstar or non superstar, I think you can find a comparable player that's either caucasion, black or latino or any other race that gets added to the equation.

 

Some of the best pure hitters in the game have been black. The greatest player in Saber history has to be Barry Bonds. Bar none.

 

But, pete the dog brings up a very good point with latin players in the fact that they aren't going to "walk" their way off the island.

 

Getting back to Brad Wilkerson, the 3 players that Wilkerson has closely resembled by age happen to be Paul O'Neill, Jeffrey Hammonds and Ivan Calderon. A caucasion, a black and a latin player.

 

Brian Giles has most closely resembled by age Mark Quinn (white), Moises Alou (latin), Bob Johnson (?), Pedro Guerrero (latin), David Justice (black) and Hack Wilson (white).

 

You can use baseball-reference to do these comparisons with a lot of players and get the same results. Sabermetrics weighs a lot of stats that aren't conventional, and I'm nowhere close to having any scientific background, but I fail to see any significance in regards to race in any way.

[abuck1220]

this much is clear...black/latin guys play better than white guys in the heat.

 

it's science.

[erik316wttn]

Sabremetrics are based on numbers. Numbers do not discriminate. If a white guy and a black guy and a hispanic guy all hit 30 home runs in a season, it counts exactly the same for all of them.

 

The numbers may be skewed a bit due to some coincidence in today's game, but it's not meant to favor one race of players over any other.

[brfahey]

Sabremetrics are based on numbers. Numbers do not discriminate. If a white guy and a black guy and a hispanic guy all hit 30 home runs in a season, it counts exactly the same for all of them.

 

The numbers may be skewed a bit due to some coincidence in today's game, but it's not meant to favor one race of players over any other.

 

I understand that it is based upon numbers and that numbers are color blind. But, true or false, sabermetrics favors or values certain qualities or numbers or stats over others, doesn't it? Not too big on stealing bases but big on walks, for example. My point is is there a possibility that given what it values or on which it places positive emphasis and given what it does not value sabermetrics obviously favors a "type" of player, at least to some extent. All I have been asking is whether or not that "type" is more likely than not to be a white player.

[BigbadB]

Sabremetrics are based on numbers. Numbers do not discriminate. If a white guy and a black guy and a hispanic guy all hit 30 home runs in a season, it counts exactly the same for all of them.

 

The numbers may be skewed a bit due to some coincidence in today's game, but it's not meant to favor one race of players over any other.

 

I understand that it is based upon numbers and that numbers are color blind. But, true or false, sabermetrics favors or values certain qualities or numbers or stats over others, doesn't it? Not too big on stealing bases but big on walks, for example. My point is is there a possibility that given what it values or on which it places positive emphasis and given what it does not value sabermetrics obviously favors a "type" of player, at least to some extent. All I have been asking is whether or not that "type" is more likely than not to be a white player.

 

I would say no, based on my previous response. For every white player that was a picture perfect model of what a sabermetric player should be, there is a black guy and a latino guy and probably a japanese guy who you can find that compares to that white player.

[pete the dog]

Sabremetrics are based on numbers. Numbers do not discriminate. If a white guy and a black guy and a hispanic guy all hit 30 home runs in a season, it counts exactly the same for all of them.

 

The numbers may be skewed a bit due to some coincidence in today's game, but it's not meant to favor one race of players over any other.

 

I understand that it is based upon numbers and that numbers are color blind. But, true or false, sabermetrics favors or values certain qualities or numbers or stats over others, doesn't it? Not too big on stealing bases but big on walks, for example. My point is is there a possibility that given what it values or on which it places positive emphasis and given what it does not value sabermetrics obviously favors a "type" of player, at least to some extent. All I have been asking is whether or not that "type" is more likely than not to be a white player.

 

 

Yes, sabermetrics does value certain kinds of baseball players. It favors the kinds of players that do things that predict victories in baseball games. The goal of sabermetrics is to identify those feaures of play that correspond to success.

 

If that analysis tends to increase, on average, the value of white players compared to blacks and Latinos then that suggests that traditional analyses have wrongly underestimated the value of those same white players and overestimated the value of those black and Latino players.

 

Personally, I'm not convinced that sabermetric analyses, on average, increase the standing of white compared to black and Latino players. I'd like to see some empirical data. But if there is any kind of racial bias, it is in the status quo analysis. The status quo relies on many subjective evaluations based on things like appearance (including skin color) to predict success. Sabermetrics relies only on numbers and cares only about predicting success. I would tend to agree that "success" is the appropriate criterion for evaluating the quality of a player.