NSBB HOF Ballot- Albert Belle

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

This is what Gillete had to say about Belle.

 

Belle was one of those few hitters who literally terrified opposing pitchers, as his steely glare and enormous power earned him justified respect between the lines. Both on and off the field, however, his hot temper caused multiple incidents that damaged Belle's reputation as a player and will also damage his chances for election to the Hall of Fame (as will his failure to win any MVP awards or play on any world championship teams). Belle is clearly the best sabermetric candidate of 2006's first-timers, though he was unjustly saddled with a reputation as a very poor outfielder while playing. The right-handed-batting slugger will get some support for the Hall, but not nearly enough as he deserves -- and nowhere near enough to get elected.

[Mark_R]

That MVP that Mo Vaughn won in 1995 over Albert Belle was an absolute crock.

[Tim]

I would put him in simply because he was one of the most dominant hitters of the 1990's. Close third behind Ken Griffey Jr. and Frank Thomas (and right there with Jeff Bagwell, another HOF'er) I think him being a jag to the media will hurt his chances, though.

I think you are forgetting someone...

 

I hated the inclusion of Puckett, who didn't belong, because it opened up so many arguments for guys like this. Belle simply didn't last long enough in my eyes to be included.

 

10 full seasons isn't long enough? I like him for the hall, I wonder how that 147 career OPS+ stacks up.

 

So, I guess you don't think Koufax belongs either. He only had ten full seasons as well.

Every rule has its exceptions. I figured someone would challenge me on that. :D

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I would put him in simply because he was one of the most dominant hitters of the 1990's. Close third behind Ken Griffey Jr. and Frank Thomas (and right there with Jeff Bagwell, another HOF'er) I think him being a jag to the media will hurt his chances, though.

I think you are forgetting someone...

 

I hated the inclusion of Puckett, who didn't belong, because it opened up so many arguments for guys like this. Belle simply didn't last long enough in my eyes to be included.

 

10 full seasons isn't long enough? I like him for the hall, I wonder how that 147 career OPS+ stacks up.

 

So, I guess you don't think Koufax belongs either. He only had ten full seasons as well.

Every rule has its exceptions. I figured someone would challenge me on that. :D

 

Tim, here is my take on it.

 

The BBWAA has set that a player must have 10 seasons to appear on the ballot. By making that the requirement, I figure that if a player gets those ten seasons, I should look at his accomplishments in those seasons. Surely, some players aren't good enough to simply retire after ten seasons and be worthy, others are.

 

When I look at Belle, while he only played ten seasons, eight of those were at HOF levels. There's a lot of 15 year players that will be put in the Hall that don't have eight seasons that are as strong as Belle's. Some of those with 15-year careers don't have five seasons as good as Belle.

 

There's no doubt Belle was a surly SOB, but that shouldn't keep him out. His career was too short, shorter than it should be, but the standard for the ballot is ten seasons, Koufax and Puckett and Kiner are all examples of players who made it in with that length of a career, so I don't see it as a consistent line of reasoning to keep Belle out.

[Mark_R]

Vance, I agree with you 100%. I think the thing that will keep him out is not winning an MVP award. And like I posted before, him not winning in 1995 was a farce.

 

His numbers for the 90's were just sickeningly good.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

If Belle doesn't belong, why is Ralph Kiner a HOF?

 

Let's look at how similar they were.

 

Belle played in ten full seasons and so did Kiner.

 

BA:

Kiner: 279

Belle: 295

 

OBP:

Kiner: 398

Belle: 369

 

SLG:

Kiner: 548

Belle" 564

 

Runs

Kiner:971

Belle: 974

 

Doubles

Kiner: 216

Belle: 389

 

HR

Kiner: 369

Belle: 381

 

RBI

Kiner: 1015

Belle: 1239

 

All-Star Game Appearances

Kiner: 6

Belle: 5

 

Top MVP Finishes

Kiner: 2

Belle: 3

 

162 Game Averages-

Kiner- 279/398/548 41 HR 112 RBI

Belle- 295/369/564 40 HR 130 RBI

 

Wow...I don't think you could find more similar players. If Kiner is a HOF, Belle should be as well.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Ralph Kiner played in a different era so you really can't compair their numbers like that.

[treebird]

Ralph Kiner played in a different era so you really can't compair their numbers like that.

 

albert belle career ops+ 143

ralph kiner career ops+ 149

 

kiner had a pretty great league to hit in for some of those years too.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Ralph Kiner played in a different era so you really can't compair their numbers like that.

 

albert belle career ops+ 143

ralph kiner career ops+ 149

 

kiner had a pretty great league to hit in for some of those years too.

 

So, basically, Kiner is better but only marginally so. I still think if Kiner is a HOF, so is Belle.

 

There are basically only two legitimate arguments against Belle.

 

1. He didn't play long enough. (But then, why doesn't that apply to Puckett, Koufax, and Kiner?)

 

2. He was an SOB to pretty much everyone. (So was Ty Cobb, Eddie Murray, and others)

 

Belle may not be a first ballot guy, but he should get at least 50% of the vote. It's a shame that people don't give him the respect that he's due.

 

Would Puckett have gotten in had the stories of spousal abuse hit the papers prior to his election?

[Tim]

I don't think Kiner belongs, either.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I don't think Kiner belongs, either.

 

So, basically Koufax is the only one of the ten year career guys you believe belongs?

[Tim]

I don't think Kiner belongs, either.

 

So, basically Koufax is the only one of the ten year career guys you believe belongs?

Pretty much so. A player has to do something extraordinary for me to let him in with just 10 years.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I don't think Kiner belongs, either.

 

So, basically Koufax is the only one of the ten year career guys you believe belongs?

Pretty much so. A player has to do something extraordinary for me to let him in with just 10 years.

 

I guess I can understand that. I too think that a player needs an extended peak to get in without the long career, but in my opinion, Belle and Kiner meet that. Both had an 8-10 year run in which they were an offensive force.

[Tim]

I don't think Kiner belongs, either.

 

So, basically Koufax is the only one of the ten year career guys you believe belongs?

Pretty much so. A player has to do something extraordinary for me to let him in with just 10 years.

 

I guess I can understand that. I too think that a player needs an extended peak to get in without the long career, but in my opinion, Belle and Kiner meet that. Both had an 8-10 year run in which they were an offensive force.

I think there's more to a career than the peak. To me, longevity of being a "good" player is also important. For instance, I'd like to see Griffey hang around for a while and have a few more "good" seasons before leaving the game. Same thing with Thomas, Bagwell, etc.

[rawaction]

I don't think Kiner belongs, either.

 

So, basically Koufax is the only one of the ten year career guys you believe belongs?

Pretty much so. A player has to do something extraordinary for me to let him in with just 10 years.

 

I guess I can understand that. I too think that a player needs an extended peak to get in without the long career, but in my opinion, Belle and Kiner meet that. Both had an 8-10 year run in which they were an offensive force.

I think there's more to a career than the peak. To me, longevity of being a "good" player is also important. For instance, I'd like to see Griffey hang around for a while and have a few more "good" seasons before leaving the game. Same thing with Thomas, Bagwell, etc.

 

Not gonna happen with Bagwell. Doubtful with Thomas. Would you put either in right now? Griffey's in, and I think he will have a few more good seasons to make him a 1st ballotter.

[Tim]

I don't think Kiner belongs, either.

 

So, basically Koufax is the only one of the ten year career guys you believe belongs?

Pretty much so. A player has to do something extraordinary for me to let him in with just 10 years.

 

I guess I can understand that. I too think that a player needs an extended peak to get in without the long career, but in my opinion, Belle and Kiner meet that. Both had an 8-10 year run in which they were an offensive force.

I think there's more to a career than the peak. To me, longevity of being a "good" player is also important. For instance, I'd like to see Griffey hang around for a while and have a few more "good" seasons before leaving the game. Same thing with Thomas, Bagwell, etc.

 

Not gonna happen with Bagwell. Doubtful with Thomas. Would you put either in right now? Griffey's in, and I think he will have a few more good seasons to make him a 1st ballotter.

After looking things up, Big Frank has played at least parts of 16 seasons and had a much better peak than Belle. He's in for me.

 

Bagwell's played parts of 15 seasons and had a comparable or better peak than Belle. He's near the edge of what I'd put in (I'm tough to get a yes from), but I'd probably put him in.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Dayn Perry doesn't think Belle belongs.

 

Belle had a tremendous career (381 career homers, 17th on the all-time SLG list), but he played only 12 seasons in the majors. Also, voters are expressly instructed to consider a player's character. That's a Pandora's box of subjectivity and mixed motives, but it's nevertheless part of the process. Belle was treated unfairly by the media at times, but he was a considerable jerk on many other occasions. He's a narrow miss.

 

[Warpticon]

Anybody who can arguably be considered the best hitter in the game (nevermind at a given position) for a 5 year period is a virtual lock, in my eyes. The number of players who can boast such an accomplishment is extremely minute, and absolutely worthy of Hall status. If you're looking for the best of the best, Belle was that from 'about '94 through '99. There were, at most, 4 to 5 players who could even be considered in his class at that time. (Griffey, Bonds, A-Rod, Thomas, possibly Manny.) And if a guy as dominant as Belle can't get in, I'm not sure who deserves to get in. There are lots of good players in baseball in any given era, and I find it hard to believe that there's any maeaning to a Hall that apparently can only house, say, 10 hitters from each. If that's the case, then the hall essentially becomes just the List Of Really, Really Good Players. It's pretty much the exact same argument the people who don't want certain players in make in the opposite direction. These debates make me wonder who people would vote for out of current players.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Anybody who can arguably be considered the best hitter in the game (nevermind at a given position) for a 5 year period is a virtual lock, in my eyes. The number of players who can boast such an accomplishment is extremely minute, and absolutely worthy of Hall status. If you're looking for the best of the best, Belle was that from 'about '94 through '99. There were, at most, 4 to 5 players who could even be considered in his class at that time. (Griffey, Bonds, A-Rod, Thomas, possibly Manny.) And if a guy as dominant as Belle can't get in, I'm not sure who deserves to get in. There are lots of good players in baseball in any given era, and I find it hard to believe that there's any maeaning to a Hall that apparently can only house, say, 10 hitters from each. If that's the case, then the hall essentially becomes just the List Of Really, Really Good Players. It's pretty much the exact same argument the people who don't want certain players in make in the opposite direction. These debates make me wonder who people would vote for out of current players.

 

Belle's VORP rank for All Position Players in MLB 91-00

 

91 - 43

92 - 47

93 - 15

94 - 3

95 - 2

96 - 9

97 - 55

98 - 2

99 - 26

00 - 120

 

 

To me it's just not enough.