Cubs Acquire Juan Pierre

[USSoccer]

Does no one understand the concepts of marginal value and opportunity cost?

 

I do. But don't explain it please. I am trying to make the best of this trade.

 

Why? It's a flat out awful trade, and you know it.

 

The only thing that makes it awful is if Pinto and Nolasco could have been used to get Wilkerson or Michaels, or even as part of a larger package for Abreu.

 

The Nats probably wanted a ML player for Wilkerson, as they are building a fan base there. Philly might have bit for Michaels, but I think they asked for Wang, which would have been like them asking us for Williams. Those 2 teams might not have seen as much value in prospects.

 

Pierre should perform at a decent clip. I don't expect sick OBP numbers, but I do expect a rebound from 2005. Pinto and Nolasco were not going to help the Cubs in the next 2-3 years unless it was through a trade.

[Diffusion]

Does no one understand the concepts of marginal value and opportunity cost?

 

I do too. I'm trying to look at this in a positive way, as well. I can see some positives in it, and some negatives. I'm choosing to believe the positives.

 

These positives being?

[soapy]

Does this end pursuit of a SS? Since Hendry has found his lead-off man, I hope they end the Lugo talk. Cedeno, please.

[UK1679666180]

Does no one understand the concepts of marginal value and opportunity cost?

 

I do too. I'm trying to look at this in a positive way, as well. I can see some positives in it, and some negatives. I'm choosing to believe the positives.

 

These positives being?

 

He has the speed to be one of the quickest to run back to the dugout after a higher rate of failed ABs.

 

(yes, I'm joking)

[goonys evil twin]

Jim Hendry sold high for once with some of our non-top prospects. And you choose to complain about it. Perhaps we should have held on to Pinto longer, and watch ALL of his value disappear like Juan Cruz, Ruben Quevedo, Jason Dubois and Richard Lewis before him.

 

From where I stand, Hendry solved one of his issues with the MAJOR LEAGUE club and didn't need to use any of his top prospects or major league capable talent to get it done. Looks like he still has Angel Guzman, Rich Hill, Felix Pie, Eric Patterson, Mark Pawelek, Ryan Harvey, Carlos Marmol, Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall, and Brian Dopirak in-house. Gee, that's pretty much the Cubs top prospect list right there. How about trading chips Corey Patterson, Todd Walker, Roberto Novoa, Todd Wellemeyer, Jerome Williams, Jerry Hairston? Yep, still have all of them as well.

 

I agree whole heartedly.

 

Pinto - control issues, he can be good, can fizzle

Nolasco - I like him, but the way the Cubs are he isn't going to get an extended look in the rotation, he'd be up and down but never stick just like Mitre

 

Mitre - if included, wasn't going to make the team and had no options, I have a soft spot for Surge and am glad he would be going to a place that needs him.

 

You forgot a major part:

 

Pierre - Not any good.

 

None of these guys were prospects that can't be traded. Unfortunately, Pierre isn't a guy that's going to make this team much better. If it truly is all 3, that's just plain stupid, as Pierre was by far the worst of the players Florida traded, and this package compares with the ones they got for much better players.

[CuseCubFan69]

But depending on how you look at both sides, its really a pretty even trade all around.

How is this a fair trade for both sides?

 

Pierre's value to the Cubs can be measured in several ways, but the best way will be after the 2006 season. He brings elements of baseball to the team that it has been lacking since 2003 and that was a pretty successful year. If the blueprint is to bring back that kind of sucess then I am all for it.

 

Aside from foot speed, what does he bring to the team that Todd Walker does not?

 

I love the Cubs. I cannot stand Jim Hendry.

 

Best case scenario he performs to career norms. But then what do the

Cubs do when Pie is ready?

 

I was fearfull this would happen. I really really hope I'm worng.

 

It's not that bad. Even if Pierre is a one year rental, Pinto and Nolasco weren't likely to crack to rotation soon, and Pierre keeps Felix in the system for another year, which IMHO is worth it on it's own. If Pie continues to improve, he's ready for 2007, then Pierre walks and we get a type A draft pick, plus a more polished Pie.

 

That is if the Cubs offer arbitration. My issue is that this team had to be Dusty proofed and possibly Hendry proofed for all I know.

 

Oh well. What's done is done and now I hope Hendry gets an impact bat for right. Is it possible the Pie is now available?

[goonys evil twin]

The only thing that makes it awful is if Pinto and Nolasco could have been used to get Wilkerson or Michaels, or even as part of a larger package for Abreu.

 

The Nats probably wanted a ML player for Wilkerson, as they are building a fan base there. Philly might have bit for Michaels, but I think they asked for Wang, which would have been like them asking us for Williams. Those 2 teams might not have seen as much value in prospects.

 

Pierre should perform at a decent clip. I don't expect sick OBP numbers, but I do expect a rebound from 2005. Pinto and Nolasco were not going to help the Cubs in the next 2-3 years unless it was through a trade.

 

Why should he? He's not good. He could easily suck again. Those guys could have been traded, along with a Williams or other pieces, for a much much much better player.

[CuseCubFan69]

Does this end pursuit of a SS? Since Hendry has found his lead-off man, I hope they end the Lugo talk. Cedeno, please.

 

Probably. Now Hendry can over pay for Huff.

[USSoccer]

Does no one understand the concepts of marginal value and opportunity cost?

 

I do too. I'm trying to look at this in a positive way, as well. I can see some positives in it, and some negatives. I'm choosing to believe the positives.

 

These positives being?

 

-Prevents Hendry from being tempted to rush Pierre to the majors at some point in 2006. No matter how talented Felix is, he needs to improve his plate discipline if he's going to be the player we hope. This gives the Cubs the luxury of patience.

 

-Clears out some space for future 40 man additions

 

-Prevents Baker from ever batting Neifi 1st, and might help to stabalize the lineup. Wilkerson might have been miscast as a 6 hole hitter by Baker, a la Bellhorn.

 

-Does give us at least the outline of a running game on the bases. The SB% needs to be higher, though.

 

-Settles Hendry's lust for a "leadoff" hitter, hopefully aloowing him to move on to the equally improtant black hole in RF.

 

-Probably guarantees Murton's spot starting in LF next year.

 

-Pierre will likely rebound from 2005.

 

-Gives us a type A draft pick if/when he walks next year.

[CubinNY]

The only thing that makes it awful is if Pinto and Nolasco could have been used to get Wilkerson or Michaels, or even as part of a larger package for Abreu.

 

The Nats probably wanted a ML player for Wilkerson, as they are building a fan base there. Philly might have bit for Michaels, but I think they asked for Wang, which would have been like them asking us for Williams. Those 2 teams might not have seen as much value in prospects.

 

Pierre should perform at a decent clip. I don't expect sick OBP numbers, but I do expect a rebound from 2005. Pinto and Nolasco were not going to help the Cubs in the next 2-3 years unless it was through a trade.

 

Why should he? He's not good. He could easily suck again. Those guys could have been traded, along with a Williams or other pieces, for a much much much better player.

 

Hence the terms marginal value and opportunity costs? I told Diffusion not to bring it up but I never said anything to you.

 

Now I am upset again.

[USSoccer]

The only thing that makes it awful is if Pinto and Nolasco could have been used to get Wilkerson or Michaels, or even as part of a larger package for Abreu.

 

The Nats probably wanted a ML player for Wilkerson, as they are building a fan base there. Philly might have bit for Michaels, but I think they asked for Wang, which would have been like them asking us for Williams. Those 2 teams might not have seen as much value in prospects.

 

Pierre should perform at a decent clip. I don't expect sick OBP numbers, but I do expect a rebound from 2005. Pinto and Nolasco were not going to help the Cubs in the next 2-3 years unless it was through a trade.

 

Why should he? He's not good. He could easily suck again. Those guys could have been traded, along with a Williams or other pieces, for a much much much better player.

 

His career track record suggests some sort of rebound. I do agree with you that this wasn't the best use of Pinto and Nolasco, but it wasn't the worst use of them, either.

 

I feel dirty for defending Pierre, but I think he's a better option than Lofton, and at least an equal option to Bradley. I would have rather had Wilkerson or Michaels, but oh well.

[soapy]

Does this end pursuit of a SS? Since Hendry has found his lead-off man, I hope they end the Lugo talk. Cedeno, please.

 

Probably. Now Hendry can over pay for Huff.

 

Yuck. I really am against having Huff in RF now that Pierre is in CF. It was possibly a tolerable gamble if there was above average production in CF. Not now.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Do I think we overpaid? absolutely. Giving up Mitre isn't a problem, but tossing in both Nolassco and Pinto is overpaying some considering Pierre is a one-year rental.

 

Will Pierre make us a better team next year? I guess it depends on the next move. I really doubt we see a huge bat, ala Dunn coming this way now. We just don't have the guns left to pull a trigger on such a deal unless Hendry signs Pierre to an extension and then trades Pie plus other players in deal for Dunn.

 

I'll try to breakdown the trade like this:

 

Positives:

1. The Cubs acquire a CF and lead-off man that has had success in the role.

2. Pierre will be a significant upgrade over what we had in the position last season.

3. We made the trade without giving up Jerome Williams or Rich Hill or Todd Walker.

 

Negatives:

1. Patterson is still here.

2. Pinto and Nolassco were two valuable trading chips as well as guys who could've helped the Cubs in the future. Losing both in the same deal along with Mitre is pretty steep.

3. Pierre is a rental player.

 

I think the positives outweigh the negatives. We still need to acquire a bat for RF. I'm hoping for Wilkerson in a deal involving Patterson, but Bradley would be ok. Signing Encarnacion may be an option as well.

[goonys evil twin]

It's not that bad. Even if Pierre is a one year rental, Pinto and Nolasco weren't likely to crack to rotation soon, and Pierre keeps Felix in the system for another year, which IMHO is worth it on it's own. If Pie continues to improve, he's ready for 2007, then Pierre walks and we get a type A draft pick, plus a more polished Pie.

 

And then what if Pierre has another crappy year, and Pie isn't ready for 2007, and Hendry once again panicks and overpays for his own mediocre players with an undeserved extension?

 

And I'm not so sure Pierre is going to get the Cubs a draft pick. If he sucks again, his rating will decline, and the Cubs would be stupid to offer him arbitration. No sane GM is going to get all giddy about signing him prior to the arbitraiton date.

 

Yes, there is a chance this could all work out. But it's an extremely small chance because, once again, the Cubs have overemphasized a relatively small part of a player's overall game, in this case, Juan's speed. He doesn't catch the ball, so this probably increases the chances that Hendry emphasizes defense in right field, which would again hurt the offense, which is still not good after Pierre.

[USSoccer]

Does this end pursuit of a SS? Since Hendry has found his lead-off man, I hope they end the Lugo talk. Cedeno, please.

 

Probably. Now Hendry can over pay for Huff.

 

Yuck. I really am against having Huff in RF now that Pierre is in CF. It was possibly a tolerable gamble if there was above average production in CF. Not now.

 

Maybe now Felix is on the table in a deal for one of the Big 3 corner OF's we've all talked about.

[Tim]

I see the trade this way:

 

- Pierre is okay. I'm not excited to have him, but he's not the end of the world, either.

 

- I'm sorry to see Pinto and Nolasco go, but I'm happy it wasn't Hill, Guzman or Marshall

 

- This opened up space on the 40 man roster, which was desperately needed

 

- We'll also get two draft picks in 2007 as compensation for Pierre leaving as a FA (assuming they don't change the draft rules by then)

[CuseCubFan69]

How does Pinto, Nolassco and Mitre compare to what the Mets and Boston gave up for better players?

[USSoccer]

It's not that bad. Even if Pierre is a one year rental, Pinto and Nolasco weren't likely to crack to rotation soon, and Pierre keeps Felix in the system for another year, which IMHO is worth it on it's own. If Pie continues to improve, he's ready for 2007, then Pierre walks and we get a type A draft pick, plus a more polished Pie.

 

And then what if Pierre has another crappy year, and Pie isn't ready for 2007, and Hendry once again panicks and overpays for his own mediocre players with an undeserved extension?

 

And I'm not so sure Pierre is going to get the Cubs a draft pick. If he sucks again, his rating will decline, and the Cubs would be stupid to offer him arbitration. No sane GM is going to get all giddy about signing him prior to the arbitraiton date.

 

Yes, there is a chance this could all work out. But it's an extremely small chance because, once again, the Cubs have overemphasized a relatively small part of a player's overall game, in this case, Juan's speed. He doesn't catch the ball, so this probably increases the chances that Hendry emphasizes defense in right field, which would again hurt the offense, which is still not good after Pierre.

 

I think the chances of him not sucking are greater than the chances that he absolutely tanks this year. He's going to have to adjust, though, to Wrigley's grass, and Wrigley's dimensions, and tailor his game accordingly.

 

That's actually the biggest worry I have with this. I'm concerned about him becoming more swing-happy at the plate, and our IF grass just killing his game.

[Guest]

Who's to say we don't sign Pierre again and then move him over to RF or LF next year when Pie comes up?

That would be an absolute nightmare. A decent corner outfielder should provide a .350-ish OBP while also providing good power, say in the 25-30 HR range. Pierre may provide you with the OBP (assuming the balls are bouncing his way and he's having one of his good years) but you'll be extremely lucky to get 3 HR out of him, let alone 30. Pierre isn't that great for a CF, and as a corner OF he'd be far, far worse than any of the Cubs' 2005 options for those slots.

Edited December 7, 2005 by Anonymous

[CubinNY]

Does this end pursuit of a SS? Since Hendry has found his lead-off man, I hope they end the Lugo talk. Cedeno, please.

 

Probably. Now Hendry can over pay for Huff.

 

Yuck. I really am against having Huff in RF now that Pierre is in CF. It was possibly a tolerable gamble if there was above average production in CF. Not now.

 

Maybe now Felix is on the table in a deal for one of the Big 3 corner OF's we've all talked about.

 

I think that wouldn't bother me as much as Pierre. I would prefer Dunn, he is younger, but Abeu would be fine too. Manny is a LFer so I don't what would happen with Murton.

Edited December 7, 2005 by CubinNY

[CuseCubFan69]

Does this end pursuit of a SS? Since Hendry has found his lead-off man, I hope they end the Lugo talk. Cedeno, please.

 

Probably. Now Hendry can over pay for Huff.

 

Yuck. I really am against having Huff in RF now that Pierre is in CF. It was possibly a tolerable gamble if there was above average production in CF. Not now.

 

Maybe now Felix is on the table in a deal for one of the Big 3 corner OF's we've all talked about.

 

Yeah....Huff. :D

 

The only fit that makes is Abreu since he is the only one of the three (Manny + Dunn) that plays right.

[biittner77]

Does no one understand the concepts of marginal value and opportunity cost?

 

I do too. I'm trying to look at this in a positive way, as well. I can see some positives in it, and some negatives. I'm choosing to believe the positives.

 

These positives being?

 

Here's some positives:

 

The Cubs won't be tempted to give Damon a 5 year contract.

 

As long as Pierre stays healthy, we won't see Perez leading off.

 

Now Hendry can concentrate on finding a RF

 

This trade won't destroy the franchise but has a good chance of looking really horrible in 3 years time. Then again what do I know. I thought the Cubs would regret trading Choi.

[soapy]

Does this end pursuit of a SS? Since Hendry has found his lead-off man, I hope they end the Lugo talk. Cedeno, please.

 

Probably. Now Hendry can over pay for Huff.

 

Yuck. I really am against having Huff in RF now that Pierre is in CF. It was possibly a tolerable gamble if there was above average production in CF. Not now.

 

Maybe now Felix is on the table in a deal for one of the Big 3 corner OF's we've all talked about.

 

It's a lot more likely than it was yesterday, but I still doubt it (based on the rumors we've heard so far). I'm definitely not against trading him for the right player. I also still think it's quite possible (or even likely) that Williams and/or Hill would be part of such a deal. Especially if you're talking about trading with Cinci or Philly. I'd think they would both want pitching. Williams would seem to be a good fit for both of those teams. I'd say the Mets would be interested them as well (for Floyd?).

[goonys evil twin]

I'll try to breakdown the trade like this:

 

Positives:

1. The Cubs acquire a CF and lead-off man that has had success in the role.

2. Pierre will be a significant upgrade over what we had in the position last season.

3. We made the trade without giving up Jerome Williams or Rich Hill or Todd Walker.

 

Negatives:

1. Patterson is still here.

2. Pinto and Nolassco were two valuable trading chips as well as guys who could've helped the Cubs in the future. Losing both in the same deal along with Mitre is pretty steep.

3. Pierre is a rental player.

 

I think the positives outweigh the negatives. We still need to acquire a bat for RF. I'm hoping for Wilkerson in a deal involving Patterson, but Bradley would be ok. Signing Encarnacion may be an option as well.

 

I think your positives and negatives are completely bogus. The Cubs acquired a leadoff man and CF who isn't good. He's got a career OPS+ of 87, compared to Corey's 81. Odds are he will be at best, he'll be only partially better than Corey this year. And since we already overpaid, you can't list as a positive that they didn't overpay by an even wider margin. That's like saying positive with the Neifi signing is that we didn't sign AGonz as well or pay Neifi $5m a year. As for the negatives, the Cubs have a bad leadoff man right now, who isn't any good with the glove.

 

We better just hope that this deal isn't being reported accurately yet, and that Hendry can find it in himself to get a stud RF, because the offense is still not good.

[USSoccer]

So now how would Pie and Williams look for Abreu?