Cubs Acquire Juan Pierre

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Seems like a high price but Hendry was determined to find a leadoff hitter. We all can hope Pierre returns to his .370 OBP years.

 

Next target is to find a rightfielder. It seems tougher now most of the prospects Hendry wanted to deal are going to Florida. Perhaps a Patterson + Williams deal for Wilkerson can get done.

 

Aw, c'mon Mush--Fez is a total zero, and Nolasco and Pinto only look good because they pitched well while REPEATING AA. That's a big leap to get from AA success to useful major leaguer, as their failure in AAA in 2004 attests. None of these guys are anything other than marginal prospects.

 

So, good trade! When the situation is dire, you need to overpay, OK, but what's done is done. We finally have a leadoff man. You are right--if Pierre performs in 2006 as he did in either 2001, 2003, or 2004, Cub fans are going to be very VERY happy.

 

Just because a minor leaguer repeated a level (especially in the case of Nolasco) doesn't mean they're marginal in the least bit.

 

This is an extremely steep price for Pierre.

[Outshined_One]

2008:

 

The Las Vegas Aces are bolstered by their incredible starting rotation of Willis, Nolasco, Gaby Hernandez, and Pinto are shooting toward their first WS appearance since they moved from Florida. Many thanks go out to the Mets and Cubs for making this happen.

 

In other news, Juan Pierre was arrested again after his fall from 2003 grace with possesion of crack cocaine. He also landed an additional fine by saying, "Do you know who I am?" The officer soundly resounded. "No, cracky"

 

How does Petit not crack the rotation?!?!?!? Sounds made up to me :lol:

 

Petit's highly overrated. None of his stuff is really noteworthy. He could pan out, but my gut's telling me he is on his way to getting shellacked in the majors.

[ChiblueTNT]

Seems like a high price but Hendry was determined to find a leadoff hitter. We all can hope Pierre returns to his .370 OBP years.

 

Next target is to find a rightfielder. It seems tougher now most of the prospects Hendry wanted to deal are going to Florida. Perhaps a Patterson + Williams deal for Wilkerson can get done.

 

Aw, c'mon Mush--Fez is a total zero, and Nolasco and Pinto only look good because they pitched well while REPEATING AA. That's a big leap to get from AA success to useful major leaguer, as their failure in AAA in 2004 attests. None of these guys are anything other than marginal prospects.

 

So, good trade! When the situation is dire, you need to overpay, OK, but what's done is done. We finally have a leadoff man. You are right--if Pierre performs in 2006 as he did in either 2001, 2003, or 2004, Cub fans are going to be very VERY happy.

 

Just because a minor leaguer repeated a level (especially in the case of Nolasco) doesn't mean they're marginal in the least bit.

 

This is an extremely steep price for Pierre.

 

 

Agree

 

 

Free Grossman!

 

AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Seems like a high price but Hendry was determined to find a leadoff hitter. We all can hope Pierre returns to his .370 OBP years.

 

Next target is to find a rightfielder. It seems tougher now most of the prospects Hendry wanted to deal are going to Florida. Perhaps a Patterson + Williams deal for Wilkerson can get done.

 

Aw, c'mon Mush--Fez is a total zero, and Nolasco and Pinto only look good because they pitched well while REPEATING AA. That's a big leap to get from AA success to useful major leaguer, as their failure in AAA in 2004 attests. None of these guys are anything other than marginal prospects.

 

So, good trade! When the situation is dire, you need to overpay, OK, but what's done is done. We finally have a leadoff man. You are right--if Pierre performs in 2006 as he did in either 2001, 2003, or 2004, Cub fans are going to be very VERY happy.

 

Ignorant...

BA ranked them 17th and 18th best prospects respectively in the southern league, which was loaded this year. Pinto and Nolasco just happened to be #2 and #3 in the league in ERA (2.71 and 2.89), both averaging a K/IP, and 1.22 WHIPs. And although they are both repeating after failed attempts in AAA, they are both age appropriate. Also on that BA ranking was Murton (12), Jenks (13), Broxton (14), and Hill (15). Marginal, my left foot.

 

First off, why don't you stick to criticizing arguments instead of name-calling like "ignorant"; no one (namely, me) said anything to you directly. I think you're a smart-ass and someone that is impressed with other people's rankings, how about that? Happy now?

 

Now for the argument at hand. I've seen Mitre, Nolasco and Pinto pitch in person. Have you? Prospect rankings are as much a popularity contest as anything else. If I had a quarter for every kid on "BA's Top X" list I'd be a millionaire by now. These guys are not difference makers, OK? You want to obsess over every last guy in the Cubs system, terrific, have fun, but I would like to point you to more objective outcomes. Namely, how many of such players have amounted to ANYTHING at the major league level??

 

Here's a fun parlor game for you: go back and look at these Cubs Top X lists the last five years. See how many of those kids are playing in the major leagues right now and get back to me.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Seems like a high price but Hendry was determined to find a leadoff hitter. We all can hope Pierre returns to his .370 OBP years.

 

Next target is to find a rightfielder. It seems tougher now most of the prospects Hendry wanted to deal are going to Florida. Perhaps a Patterson + Williams deal for Wilkerson can get done.

 

Aw, c'mon Mush--Fez is a total zero, and Nolasco and Pinto only look good because they pitched well while REPEATING AA. That's a big leap to get from AA success to useful major leaguer, as their failure in AAA in 2004 attests. None of these guys are anything other than marginal prospects.

 

So, good trade! When the situation is dire, you need to overpay, OK, but what's done is done. We finally have a leadoff man. You are right--if Pierre performs in 2006 as he did in either 2001, 2003, or 2004, Cub fans are going to be very VERY happy.

 

Ignorant...

BA ranked them 17th and 18th best prospects respectively in the southern league, which was loaded this year. Pinto and Nolasco just happened to be #2 and #3 in the league in ERA (2.71 and 2.89), both averaging a K/IP, and 1.22 WHIPs. And although they are both repeating after failed attempts in AAA, they are both age appropriate. Also on that BA ranking was Murton (12), Jenks (13), Broxton (14), and Hill (15). Marginal, my left foot.

Well, if Don Kessinger was good then I guess in that bizarro world then Pinto and Nolasco could be marginal prospects. ;)

 

You're an ass, too. Try attacking the argument, not the poster, is that too tough for you?

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Let's stick to the topic at hand.

[AramisRamirez]

well im pleased with this trade. mitre is probably going to be a good starting pitcher but we were desperate for a leadoff guy. in a down year pierre still had 50+ SBs and hit .276. i think he'll fit fine at the top of the order.

 

like others said, if we can manage bradley now our lineup will be looking pretty good. certainly good enough to compete.

[Outshined_One]

Hmmmmmmm...this OF has the potential to be dicey from an offensive standpoint. If Jim Hendry continues to pursue Milton Bradley, an OF of Murton-Pierre-Bradley is concerning to me, especially considering Bradley's never played more than 141 games in a season during his stint in the majors and coupling that with the fact that he played 75 games last season. I would have been fine with him in CF, but in RF?

 

I'm hoping Hendry has a rabbit in his hat to fill that hole.

[nilodnayr]

Seems like a high price but Hendry was determined to find a leadoff hitter. We all can hope Pierre returns to his .370 OBP years.

 

Next target is to find a rightfielder. It seems tougher now most of the prospects Hendry wanted to deal are going to Florida. Perhaps a Patterson + Williams deal for Wilkerson can get done.

 

Aw, c'mon Mush--Fez is a total zero, and Nolasco and Pinto only look good because they pitched well while REPEATING AA. That's a big leap to get from AA success to useful major leaguer, as their failure in AAA in 2004 attests. None of these guys are anything other than marginal prospects.

 

So, good trade! When the situation is dire, you need to overpay, OK, but what's done is done. We finally have a leadoff man. You are right--if Pierre performs in 2006 as he did in either 2001, 2003, or 2004, Cub fans are going to be very VERY happy.

 

Ignorant...

BA ranked them 17th and 18th best prospects respectively in the southern league, which was loaded this year. Pinto and Nolasco just happened to be #2 and #3 in the league in ERA (2.71 and 2.89), both averaging a K/IP, and 1.22 WHIPs. And although they are both repeating after failed attempts in AAA, they are both age appropriate. Also on that BA ranking was Murton (12), Jenks (13), Broxton (14), and Hill (15). Marginal, my left foot.

 

First off, why don't you stick to criticizing arguments instead of name-calling like "ignorant"; no one (namely, me) said anything to you directly. I think you're a smart-ass and someone that is impressed with other people's rankings, how about that? Happy now?

 

Now for the argument at hand. I've seen Mitre, Nolasco and Pinto pitch in person. Have you? Prospect rankings are as much a popularity contest as anything else. If I had a quarter for every kid on "BA's Top X" list I'd be a millionaire by now. These guys are not difference makers, OK? You want to obsess over every last guy in the Cubs system, terrific, have fun, but I would like to point you to more objective outcomes. Namely, how many of such players have amounted to ANYTHING at the major league level??

 

Here's a fun parlor game for you: go back and look at these Cubs Top X lists the last five years. See how many of those kids are playing in the major leagues right now and get back to me.

 

 

Hmmm BA's opinion or DKWG's opinion??? Which to chose, which to chose... I meant ignorant in terms of ignoring overwhelming evidence AGAINST your claims that they were marginal prospects simply for repeating AA. Stating facts as their dominance of the level, relative age, and respected analysis publications opinions are fine pieces of evidence disproving your statement. I am in no way advocating not trading any prospects, however given the return, these two VALUABLE pieces of the organization could have been utilized much better to improve the club. When you talk about Juan Pierre, "marginal" comes to mind, not "difference maker".

[Outshined_One]

http://www.heritagekonpa.com/images/Juan%20Pierre%20of%20Florida%20Marlin.jpg

 

Chop chop gents! I shan't wait to be getting that Wiggly Feel in front of the lovely ivory of Wrigley Field!

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Jim Hendry sold high for once with some of our non-top prospects. And you choose to complain about it. Perhaps we should have held on to Pinto longer, and watch ALL of his value disappear like Juan Cruz, Ruben Quevedo, Jason Dubois and Richard Lewis before him.

 

From where I stand, Hendry solved one of his issues with the MAJOR LEAGUE club and didn't need to use any of his top prospects or major league capable talent to get it done. Looks like he still has Angel Guzman, Rich Hill, Felix Pie, Eric Patterson, Mark Pawelek, Ryan Harvey, Carlos Marmol, Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall, and Brian Dopirak in-house. Gee, that's pretty much the Cubs top prospect list right there. How about trading chips Corey Patterson, Todd Walker, Roberto Novoa, Todd Wellemeyer, Jerome Williams, Jerry Hairston? Yep, still have all of them as well.

 

A TRUE quality prospect rips through the minors with rare hiccups. You keep waiting on and hoarding the marginal prospects, hoping they'll suddenly blossom into a big league all-star, well guess what--it almost never happens. They have a nice year at a mid-level like AA, terrific: use them as trade currency. Because the wait-and-see approach sure has worked wonders for us over the years. :roll:

 

Again, I like the trade, I'd like it more if it we get a prospect coming back from Florida as at least one report has it, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over these three minor leaguers leaving the organization. Half the fans criticize the Cubs for never extracting value out of these minor leaguers, Hendry finally gets off the pot and does so, and others start carping about it. Can't have it both ways.

[NorthsideAvenger]

http://www.heritagekonpa.com/images/Juan%20Pierre%20of%20Florida%20Marlin.jpg

 

Chop chop gents! I shan't wait to be getting that Wiggly Feel in front of the lovely ivory of Wrigley Field!

 

Man, that picture makes him look like Dave Chappelle.

[Brian]

Jim Hendry sold high for once with some of our non-top prospects. And you choose to complain about it. Perhaps we should have held on to Pinto longer, and watch ALL of his value disappear like Juan Cruz, Ruben Quevedo, Jason Dubois and Richard Lewis before him.

 

From where I stand, Hendry solved one of his issues with the MAJOR LEAGUE club and didn't need to use any of his top prospects or major league capable talent to get it done. Looks like he still has Angel Guzman, Rich Hill, Felix Pie, Eric Patterson, Mark Pawelek, Ryan Harvey, Carlos Marmol, Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall, and Brian Dopirak in-house. Gee, that's pretty much the Cubs top prospect list right there. How about trading chips Corey Patterson, Todd Walker, Roberto Novoa, Todd Wellemeyer, Jerome Williams, Jerry Hairston? Yep, still have all of them as well.

 

I agree whole heartedly.

 

Pinto - control issues, he can be good, can fizzle

Nolasco - I like him, but the way the Cubs are he isn't going to get an extended look in the rotation, he'd be up and down but never stick just like Mitre

 

Mitre - if included, wasn't going to make the team and had no options, I have a soft spot for Surge and am glad he would be going to a place that needs him.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Am I the only one (hope not) who feels that Pierre won't be the only transaction the Cubs make? Because a Mench for Mitre deal is starting to spread, abit.

[Outshined_One]

Am I the only one (hope not) who feels that Pierre won't be the only transaction the Cubs make? Because a Mench for Mitre deal is starting to spread, abit.

 

Mench is going to Florida? :-k :wink:

[CubsWin]

Apparently, there were some early reports that had the Cubs receiving Pierre and a Double-A pitching prospect in exchange for Nolasco & Pinto.

 

The reports now have the trade has just being Pierre for Nolasco, Pinto and Mitre. I guess we will find out officially later today. Does anyone have anything further on this discrepancy?

 

Either way, I think this deal will help the Cubs this season. It may have repercussions in years down the road if one of those guys hits, it may not.

 

Pierre can steal some bases. Lets hope he can get on base enough to make his base stealing ability really make a difference in the Cubs offense.

[mhuber92211]

I like this trade in many ways. Yes we gave up talent and in some degrees a lot of it. But depending on how you look at both sides, its really a pretty even trade all around. The only pitcher in the group that the Cubs sent that might have even cracked the pitching staff in the next 2 years is Pinto. Mitre had his shot, and didn't do well. Of course being set up for sucess is a different argument but in this case, the Cubs traded from a position of strength which is "solid, middle of the rotation ceiling" pitching prospects. All 3 of these pitchers can be replaced on the various lists without much of a dropoff in ceiling and it gives the Cubs a much needed leadoff hitter & CF as well as much needed wiggle room on their roster.

 

Pierre's value to the Cubs can be measured in several ways, but the best way will be after the 2006 season. He brings elements of baseball to the team that it has been lacking since 2003 and that was a pretty successful year. If the blueprint is to bring back that kind of sucess then I am all for it.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

What I don't get is that some have pointed to Pierre's 2005 and argued he stinks, and that's a fair argument. But it's equally fair to point out what he did in 2001, 2003 and 2004, and if his performance in those years as a leadoff man doesn't get one excited, then I'm at a loss to see what leadoff man WOULD get one excited. Yes, Pierre has no SLG at all, this is true. But he's batting leadoff, not 3rd, or 5th, or 6th. OTOH--

 

1. Did he get on base in those three years? Yes.

2. Once on base, does he make things happen? Yes.

3. Does he score a lot of runs? Yes.

4. Does he put the ball in play? Yes (one of the hardest guys in baseball to strike out).

5. Does he make the opposing pitcher work? Yes, the guy is a menace at fouling off pitches. I don't have his pitches seen/AB handy, hopefully someone else does.

6. Does he have good range in CF? Yes, in fact, excellent.

7. Does he have a good arm? No. This is his weak spot. You can run home on Pierre, and to a lesser extent, 3B. His problem is a weak arm, not an inaccurate arm.

8. Does he have the "right attitude"? Yes, recent stories seem to suggest he's a tireless worker, a-la Tony Gwynn. Very old school.

9. Is he grossly overpaid? Not really, he'll likely get a little under $5MM in arbitration.

10. Does he block uber-prospect Felix Pie? No, Pierre is a free agent for 2007.

 

What's not to like here?

[katway]

What I don't get is that some have pointed to Pierre's 2005 and argued he stinks, and that's a fair argument. But it's equally fair to point out what he did in 2001, 2003 and 2004, and if his performance in those years as a leadoff man doesn't get one excited, then I'm at a loss to see what leadoff man WOULD get one excited. Yes, Pierre has no SLG at all, this is true. But he's batting leadoff, not 3rd, or 5th, or 6th. OTOH--

 

1. Did he get on base in those three years? Yes.

2. Once on base, does he make things happen? Yes.

3. Does he score a lot of runs? Yes.

4. Does he put the ball in play? Yes (one of the hardest guys in baseball to strike out).

5. Does he make the opposing pitcher work? Yes, the guy is a menace at fouling off pitches. I don't have his pitches seen/AB handy, hopefully someone else does.

6. Does he have good range in CF? Yes, in fact, excellent.

7. Does he have a good arm? No. This is his weak spot. You can run home on Pierre, and to a lesser extent, 3B. His problem is a weak arm, not an inaccurate arm.

8. Does he have the "right attitude"? Yes, recent stories seem to suggest he's a tireless worker, a-la Tony Gwynn. Very old school.

9. Is he grossly overpaid? Not really, he'll likely get a little under $5MM in arbitration.

10. Does he block uber-prospect Felix Pie? No, Pierre is a free agent for 2007.

 

What's not to like here?

 

=D> Very well stated.

[Illini Iceman]

I like the trade because I think Pierre will add a badly needed dimension to the offense.

Hendry probably overpayed a bit but in his situation it is better than holding out and risk being stuck with CPatt in CF next year. Pierre was a hot commodity so Hendry needed to stretch to get it done.

I think Mitre is mediocre and no great loss and Nolasco is definitely selling high. Pinto is the only one that worries me a bit but based on the prospect lists of the experts here and at BA he has been passed by a lot of other pitching talent in the system.

Can't wait to see what happens next!

[Diffusion]

What is on-base percentage? Is it not how often a player gets himself on-base, the purpose of being on-base that the players behind him can drive him and a run can be scored? What is slugging percentage? Is it not how far around the bases a player can get himself without the assistance of others? Well, in the case of a basestealer, no. Every time that a player gets caught stealing, near enough makes no odds he might as well have not been on the bases in the first place. An out on the bases or an out in the batter's box, he ain't scoring either way. As for each stolen base, the basestealer is getting himself around the bases without the assistance of others. And really, what's the difference between hitting a double and hitting a single and then stealing second base? Again, near enough makes no odds, there isn't one. Do you not agree?

 

So, if you subtract a time on base for every caught stealing (such that on-base percentage reflects how often he's on-base with a chance at scoring), and award him a total base for every stolen base (such that slugging percentage reflects how far he's capable of getting himself around the bases by himself), Pierre's effective career on-base and slugging percentages when you include basestealing are...

 

Career: .329 / .454

 

Of course, you have to consider the effect that Pierre's speed has in terms of staying out of double play, scoring from first on a double, from second on a single, and maybe speed does make it easier for the hitters behind him, distracts the pitcher, puts off the fielders, leads to more errors etc, so you have to effectively consider the .329/.454 Pierre a sensational baserunner, but that .329 figure for hitting and basestealing combined I don't think is acceptable out of the leadoff spot.

 

2000: .326 / .355

2001: .353 / .489

2002: .313 / .422

2003: .334 / .470

2004: .341 / .473

2005: .302 / .441

 

Those are the Pierre breakdowns in terms of effective OBP and SLG year-by-year. A career high of .353 in effective OBP, and that was in Coors Field. A career high of .489 in the same year. After that, .341 and .473 are Pierre's best. Not that great. After all, the Cubs already have a player that's pretty bleh defensively that's put up the following numbers in this same metric...

 

2004: .345 / .468

2005: .353 / .476

Career: .340 / . 456

 

Of course, he's not anywhere near as good a baserunner, but if that's the only real difference, why on earth are we paying Nolasco, Pinto and Mitre plus plenty of cash for such a marginal upgrade at the leadoff spot. What, because Dusty's pride won't bat a slow white-man lead-off?

[Diffusion]

1. Did he get on base in those three years? Yes.

 

Yes. Also, in three other years, he didn't. Which is what happens when you're entirely dependent upon average on balls in play.

 

2. Once on base, does he make things happen? Yes.

 

Including running himself into so many outs that his effective OBP as I just argued isn't at all impressive.

 

3. Does he score a lot of runs? Yes.

 

Less than he'd score if he ran himself into a whole lot less outs on the basepaths. Besides, as goes without saying, runs aren't a great measure of an individual's ability.

 

4. Does he put the ball in play? Yes (one of the hardest guys in baseball to strike out).

 

He makes a lot of contact. Not much of it is that solid.

 

5. Does he make the opposing pitcher work? Yes, the guy is a menace at fouling off pitches. I don't have his pitches seen/AB handy, hopefully someone else does.

 

Career 3.42 pitches per plate appearance. Which is actually pretty rubbish.

 

6. Does he have good range in CF? Yes, in fact, excellent.

 

Has Don Kessinger was good ever watched Pierre play CF? If he had, he wouldn't have mistaken good speed with good range. Pierre reads the ball off the bat poorly, so he gets poor jumps, he doesn't read the ball in the air much better, and so his routes aren't great. As such his range is a million miles away from "excellent".

 

7. Does he have a good arm? No. This is his weak spot. You can run home on Pierre, and to a lesser extent, 3B. His problem is a weak arm, not an inaccurate arm.

 

Still a problem, albeit a relatively minor one.

 

8. Does he have the "right attitude"? Yes, recent stories seem to suggest he's a tireless worker, a-la Tony Gwynn. Very old school.

 

Brilliant.

 

9. Is he grossly overpaid? Not really, he'll likely get a little under $5MM in arbitration.

 

Which, when on the whole he's no better than average as a centre fielder, is grossly overpaid.

 

10. Does he block uber-prospect Felix Pie? No, Pierre is a free agent for 2007.

 

In other words, he's a one year rental.

[Cubzfan64]

Jim Hendry sold high for once with some of our non-top prospects. And you choose to complain about it. Perhaps we should have held on to Pinto longer, and watch ALL of his value disappear like Juan Cruz, Ruben Quevedo, Jason Dubois and Richard Lewis before him.

 

From where I stand, Hendry solved one of his issues with the MAJOR LEAGUE club and didn't need to use any of his top prospects or major league capable talent to get it done. Looks like he still has Angel Guzman, Rich Hill, Felix Pie, Eric Patterson, Mark Pawelek, Ryan Harvey, Carlos Marmol, Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall, and Brian Dopirak in-house. Gee, that's pretty much the Cubs top prospect list right there. How about trading chips Corey Patterson, Todd Walker, Roberto Novoa, Todd Wellemeyer, Jerome Williams, Jerry Hairston? Yep, still have all of them as well.

 

A TRUE quality prospect rips through the minors with rare hiccups. You keep waiting on and hoarding the marginal prospects, hoping they'll suddenly blossom into a big league all-star, well guess what--it almost never happens. They have a nice year at a mid-level like AA, terrific: use them as trade currency. Because the wait-and-see approach sure has worked wonders for us over the years. :roll:

 

Again, I like the trade, I'd like it more if it we get a prospect coming back from Florida as at least one report has it, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over these three minor leaguers leaving the organization. Half the fans criticize the Cubs for never extracting value out of these minor leaguers, Hendry finally gets off the pot and does so, and others start carping about it. Can't have it both ways.

 

I've got no problem with the trade either DK - seems as though there are alot of second guessers here who are gonna complain any time we don't field a complete team of All-Stars. I've been sick and tired for far too long with "can't miss" prospects turning into big time flops. I have no choice but to trust that our minor league coaches and organizational evaluators don't see enough potential in the 3 going to Florida to keep them with us instead. Will it be a good trade for us?? Who knows.... that's the nature of trading prospects - it's a crap shoot most of the time.

 

I'm just happy to see that Hendry has pciked up a major league CF who can fits into our ballclub right now.

 

Now it's time to move on - Patterson has to be moved in the very near future. I wish he could have "discovered himself" and become the player we all saw flashes of, but I'm afraid his chances with the Cubs have come to an end. Wherever he goes I wish him well (unless it's the Cardinals!).

 

So the question in my mind is.... with Pierre in our lineup, do the groundskeepers keep the infield grass really long, or do they cut it really short??

[Sabermetrician]

I really don't think we gave up anyone that will amount to a whole lot.

 

Mitre hasn't shown me anything at the major league level, and he's had plenty of chances. Nolasco and Pinto were only mediocre prospects to me right now, and they had both fallen from "top prospect" status from maybe two years ago. If they keep falling, we'd have ended up getting absolutely nothing for them.

[E.J.]

Meh.