jersey cubs fan

No he didn't. He was awesome for about the first month. In his first 14.2 innings with the Cubs he gave up 3 ER, 9 hits, 3 walks, and had 18 k's. Then he kind of fell apart after the injury. They just got rid of a proven league average swingman for a 24 year reliever who can't even get guys out in A+, just because of spring training numbers. No, they got rid of him because of how god awful he was soon after arriving here throughout the end of the season and the horrific spring, and the fact that he injured himself while drunk, thus entering Piniella's doghouse.

Both players were shocked to hear this news.

I wouldn't make any decision on who I'd like to see them get based on Mike and Mike. That said, I'd be all over getting Lance Moore too if he didn't cost too much. I don't see that happening though. I know that, but I do like Mike and Mike, and the stories of Plaxico berating an police officer, etc, etc is why I don't want the SOB. Greenie may a good point about Plaxico doesn't play for the fans, his teammates, or the coaches, Plaxico plays for himself. Everything happens on HIS schedule. That's why I don't want him, he isn't a team player. There's an awful lot of cops out there who deserve to be berated. And I got news for you, there isn't a single pro athlete who plays for fans. The vast majority play for themself and nobody else. Plaxico is what this team needs. The only thing that would make me shy away is the residual effects of the shooting from a health standpoint, and the potential suspension.

Sounds like Angelo is picturing Ced Benson when he's saying that. I think Ced really burned Angelo. I would have loved to have seen Jerry's reaction to Benson crying when he was drafted. I was not happy about that one. It wasn't a "oh I'm so happy to have this dream fulfilled cry", it was a confused, pissed off cry.

You keep saying this and I still don't know where you are coming from. What should the Bears have done that wasn't, in your opinion, a patch job? There was not a single free agent that they could have signed that would have been a long-term solution on the line. There has not been a single lineman traded that could have been a long-term solution on the line. The best they could have done to upgrade the line and not patch it up is the draft, which hasn't even happened yet. If you are still upset that the line wasn't upgraded for the last few years, then that's a completely different issue. But the fact is, they got MUCH better at LT, while getting just 1 year older. They probably got better at RT, and got 7-8 years younger. They got bigger at LG, and stayed young. They have 4 lineman 27 or younger, with a decent chance of 3 of them starting. I don't see how they are likely going be "very" desperate for lineman either way. Worst case scenario is Pace being forced to retire, Williams and Omiyale both failing miserably. I'd say it's a longshot that all 3 happens. They have a solid backup OT in Shaffer. They have Kruetz's replacement in Beekman. I could see them needing a guard, but it won't be out of desperation. They needed to draft lineman early in previous years and draft them early this year. I'm not complaining about what they've done this year, but you're deluding yourself if you think they are set longterm. None of the guards are sure things, and Pace is a lock to miss time and/or deteriorate. Williams is still unknown. If he is anything short of franchise tackle, this team will have huge holes by 2010, let alone 2011. Shafer isn't young at all, and he's nothing but a backup, a placeholder, a guy you'd like to replace almost immediately after he'd take the job. For now, they are fine. But they probably need a lineman in this year's top 4/5 rounds, and another in next year's as well. Now that they have a franchise QB, they are no longer going to have the freedom to go out and sign multiple free agent linemen, they are going to have to draft guys they can control and reasonable cost, because by the end of this season, they are probably going to have to talk extension with Cutler. And I'm not sure how long Forte is going to be happy under his very cheap rookie contract. Plus, Olsen is going to get a big deal if he starts getting real numbers under Cutler. The defense is already deteriorating, and the best way to make up for that is with an elite offensive line that can control games. This line might be able to do that in the short term, but there's a lot of age and uncertainty there. When did I ever say they were set longterm? I'm just arguing against you constantly bringing up that the line is a patch job like there was another alternative. They do still need to draft a lineman this year (probably a G in the 3rd or 4th). They still do need to spend a high draft pick on OL next year. I never said otherwise. You keep going on about Shaffer being a backup, but he was part of one of the best OLs in the league in 2007. He regressed some in 08', but still gave up just 2.5 sacks and Cleveland was 8th in the NFL in rushing to the right side of the formation. If Pace goes down and Williams is ineffective, I have no problem with him stepping in. I still think he'll compete at RG. And no he is not young, but he's not old either at 29. "If Williams is anything short of franchise tackle, this team will have huge holes by 2010". That's not even close to being true. There are plenty of teams that win a whole bunch of games without franchise tackles on either side (last year's superbowl teams to name two). Plus, if Williams is even a little better than servicable this year, that doesn't mean he can't be a franchise tackle in the future. If he falls flat on his face, you may have an argument here, but still I think Shaffer/Pace can hold the fort while the Bears bring in someone else. Pitt won with a defense the Bears can only dream of having. And without any top draft slots available, they won't get back there for a long time, if ever. The point is, the line is settled, for now, but clearly not for long. oh and while you may not have said set longterm chiding my shortterm patch job comment suggests so

To clarify, it's not that what they've done this offseason has been a mistake. It's just that it's all in an effort to patch their previous mistakes, not solve them longterm. There's one guy on the roster who is a likely longterm stable lineman, and he's still relatively unknown. Their patches are probably fine, in the shortterm, but just like the 2004/2005 patch jobs, they will need to be replenished quickly.

You keep saying this and I still don't know where you are coming from. What should the Bears have done that wasn't, in your opinion, a patch job? There was not a single free agent that they could have signed that would have been a long-term solution on the line. There has not been a single lineman traded that could have been a long-term solution on the line. The best they could have done to upgrade the line and not patch it up is the draft, which hasn't even happened yet. If you are still upset that the line wasn't upgraded for the last few years, then that's a completely different issue. But the fact is, they got MUCH better at LT, while getting just 1 year older. They probably got better at RT, and got 7-8 years younger. They got bigger at LG, and stayed young. They have 4 lineman 27 or younger, with a decent chance of 3 of them starting. I don't see how they are likely going be "very" desperate for lineman either way. Worst case scenario is Pace being forced to retire, Williams and Omiyale both failing miserably. I'd say it's a longshot that all 3 happens. They have a solid backup OT in Shaffer. They have Kruetz's replacement in Beekman. I could see them needing a guard, but it won't be out of desperation. They needed to draft lineman early in previous years and draft them early this year. I'm not complaining about what they've done this year, but you're deluding yourself if you think they are set longterm. None of the guards are sure things, and Pace is a lock to miss time and/or deteriorate. Williams is still unknown. If he is anything short of franchise tackle, this team will have huge holes by 2010, let alone 2011. Shafer isn't young at all, and he's nothing but a backup, a placeholder, a guy you'd like to replace almost immediately after he'd take the job. For now, they are fine. But they probably need a lineman in this year's top 4/5 rounds, and another in next year's as well. Now that they have a franchise QB, they are no longer going to have the freedom to go out and sign multiple free agent linemen, they are going to have to draft guys they can control and reasonable cost, because by the end of this season, they are probably going to have to talk extension with Cutler. And I'm not sure how long Forte is going to be happy under his very cheap rookie contract. Plus, Olsen is going to get a big deal if he starts getting real numbers under Cutler. The defense is already deteriorating, and the best way to make up for that is with an elite offensive line that can control games. This line might be able to do that in the short term, but there's a lot of age and uncertainty there.

I hope they are not done upgrading the line. In particular, I'd like to see them still look at tackles. I don't feel like we know enough about Williams yet and I don't trust Pace to stay healthy. If Angelo is going to ignore one side of the ball in the draft I hope he ignores the offense, but of course I don't think he'll ignore the draft. I would still expect better players in rounds 1-3 than rounds 4-7 though. I disagree. We have Pace, Williams, Schafer, and Omiyale. More than fine. not only do we have them, but we have beekman, garza, buenning, draft pick on the bench. while those names aren't anything special as starters, they're experienced lineman that give us excellent depth. the line is an area of strength this year, so we can stop pretending like it's still a weakness and actually now focus on the weaknesses. jeez, we patch a hole that has existed since the 1950's andpeople are still complaining. if we upgraded the defense, people would be whining about the quarterback and offensive line. come to think of it, we've upgraded the offensive line, greatly, and people are still complaining about it. It has been upgraded, but it is a patch job, nothing more. Going into 2010 they are likely to be very desperate for linemen. The guards are all questionable, and Kreutz is not worth his cap number.

absophuckingtively

He may have been on a pitch count. And teams like to bring relievers in mid-inning during spring training just for the heck of it.

If earlier rumors are true that they want an NFL QB back in a trade, the Bears may be in a better position than most. Orton is probably better than anybody discussed, and his contract is trade friendly - no cap implications. Cleveland could trade one of their guys, but both of them have bonuses that need to be accounted for in a trade (where Cutler's bonus will already provide it's own complications). And I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense for them to deal one of their two QBs for another QB. The Jets may be the front runner if only because they have shown a willingness to go big for QBs and are very QB hungry at this point. Detroit has the #1, but nobody likes #1 picks anymore. The Bears have 4 top 100 picks this year, an NFL tested QB and all of next year's picks. I don't see how they have any less ammunition than anybody else. Rumors were that the Broncos wanted young experienced NFL players in return. Most likely those would need to be defensive players given the state of their team. The Bears have Kevin Payne and that's about it as a fit for the Broncos. Danieal Manning? Dusty? Idonije. Steltz, Hamilton, Harrison, maybe even a guy like Vasher (he's been around, but is only 27 and has had NFL success). Roach or Williams could draw some interest. Manning is a man w/o a position. Dusty can't stay healthy or play NT in the 3-4 that Denver runs. Harrison is also not a nose. Steltz isn't experienced. Idonije is a backup, but could help at 3-4 end. Roach could draw interest. Vasher maybe, but I don't think they would want to take on that money and inconsistency. Jamar Williams is not experienced. I understand we aren't talking about Briggs, but I don't see everybody else dying to give up their best young defenders either. The point is the Bears have picks, a viable QB, and guys who can fill positions on the defense while probably being upgrades to what is a pathetic Denver defense.

If earlier rumors are true that they want an NFL QB back in a trade, the Bears may be in a better position than most. Orton is probably better than anybody discussed, and his contract is trade friendly - no cap implications. Cleveland could trade one of their guys, but both of them have bonuses that need to be accounted for in a trade (where Cutler's bonus will already provide it's own complications). And I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense for them to deal one of their two QBs for another QB. The Jets may be the front runner if only because they have shown a willingness to go big for QBs and are very QB hungry at this point. Detroit has the #1, but nobody likes #1 picks anymore. The Bears have 4 top 100 picks this year, an NFL tested QB and all of next year's picks. I don't see how they have any less ammunition than anybody else. Rumors were that the Broncos wanted young experienced NFL players in return. Most likely those would need to be defensive players given the state of their team. The Bears have Kevin Payne and that's about it as a fit for the Broncos. Danieal Manning? Dusty? Idonije. Steltz, Hamilton, Harrison, maybe even a guy like Vasher (he's been around, but is only 27 and has had NFL success). Roach or Williams could draw some interest.

If earlier rumors are true that they want an NFL QB back in a trade, the Bears may be in a better position than most. Orton is probably better than anybody discussed, and his contract is trade friendly - no cap implications. Cleveland could trade one of their guys, but both of them have bonuses that need to be accounted for in a trade (where Cutler's bonus will already provide it's own complications). And I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense for them to deal one of their two QBs for another QB. The Jets may be the front runner if only because they have shown a willingness to go big for QBs and are very QB hungry at this point. Detroit has the #1, but nobody likes #1 picks anymore. The Bears have 4 top 100 picks this year, an NFL tested QB and all of next year's picks. I don't see how they have any less ammunition than anybody else.

There's been enough written saying the Bears are interested for me to feel comfortable saying they are most likely interested.

Or a sign they don't have many good options on the line to begin with. Again, I'm not saying they have clearly given up on Williams or anything. But if they are actually pursuing Pace to start at LT, it would seem pretty clear to me that they've soured on Williams, considering they had penciled him in as the starting LT.

The difference being that Estes wasn't very good, while Pace is. And Williams is still starting, unlike Cruz. I just don't really see how starting a player can constitute souring on him. I see it more as the Cubs calling up Vitters to play first instead of third. His true position is still third, but the need (in theory) is greater for him to play first. That's not even close to the same. NFL doesn't have minor leagues. They also have a salary cap. Williams draft status and contract means he will play somewhere, regardless of how the coaches feel about him. But going from Day 1 left tackle starter to maybe moving over to RT and possibly competing with a guy cut by Cleveland looks to me like a coaching staff souring on a guy. The Titans have soured on Vince Young and, hence, are no longer starting him. Coaches in this league will bench a guy regardless of his salary if they feel he is hurting the team by starting. I don't know what Williams is making, but Vince is over $4 million this year and will top $10 million next year. If the Titans still don't see him as a starter, they won't start him next year either. The Bears might be souring on Williams, but I just don't see enough evidence in a switch to RT that it's safe to assume. And from the blurbs we're discussing, the assumption was Williams would have the starting RT job if Pace is signed. There was nothing about him competing with Shaffer. QB is another animal. But yes, they have clearly soured on him. If they moved him from starting QB to starting WR, you could also say they were soured on him. I really don't see how anybody can look at pursuing multiple tackle options, moving your #1 draft pick, slated to start at LT, to RT, and not think there is a possibility they are souring on him. The trip blurb did reference Schafer competing to start at RT.

Haha. Yeah. Think of it this way, it illustrates how QB-starved this town really is. The MOST I would offer is two first rd picks, because essentially the Bears would be giving up is two middle of the first rd picks for Cutler (especially if the Bears make the playoffs next yr with Cutler if acquired). Remember first rd picks are expendable, IMO, because of the Bears failure to do much with their pick. I would go 2 1st, Orton, and either another player or a 3rd or 4th round pick. This isn't like trading your draft for Ricky Williams. A franchise QB has far more value than a stud RB. A franchise QB can lead to 10+ years of contention, and justify throwing away a couple picks. If you asked me if I would be willing to trade. If I had the opportunity to trade every pick taken in the Bears 2005 draft for Cutler, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Would the team be worse if they traded every pick from 2007 for Cutler?

I don't believe much in mentors, or the notion that it's a good idea to start a guy at RT while preparing him to be a LT. If he's a LT, and you plan on playing him at LT, play him at LT. It's not as extreme as switching between CB and S, but it's along the same lines. They are different positions, and switching from one to the other requires a load of practice time invested.

Well, I've tried to use words like "might, possible, etc" because of that very thing. If I had to bet I'd say they don't sign Pace. But my theory is if they do all of a sudden sign him with the intention of playing LT, that it would indicate they are souring on Williams.

Another thing to consider is that Williams had a reputation for being a bit "soft" mentally. No killer instinct or something like that. The Bears were desperate for a tackle last year and maybe looked past it and focused on the "who is most likely capable of starting at LT from day one". It's possible that after having the kid around for a year, they see what others were worried about in regards to that lack of intensity.

The Bears gave up on Mark Bradley immediately once he got injured. Williams didn't make it to day 2 of practice. Football coaches routinely hold injuries against the player. It may be bizarre, and they may deny it, but it's true. They drafted Williams with the intention of starting him from day 1, but he got hurt in non-contact drills. The Bears struggled partly due to a weak line, Lovie was more or less forced to demote his best friend, his name went to the top of the chopping block. It would not surprise me in the least if Williams is no longer thought of the same way they thought of him on draft day. It wouldn't surprise me, but it's a very poor way of running things. They knew they were drafting damaged goods. You can't take a guy who you know has a bad back, then hold it against him when he injures said back. I really hope it's what RedFlash thinks, but if it isn't it really shows how bad this organization is run. We're talking about the Chicago Bears.

I don't think that is the case. I think it is more about Smith knowing what Pace can do morseo then the Bears souring on Chris Williams. Personally, I believe the Bears really hope that Williams was a LT, but ultimately the Bears think Williams is better suted to be a RT as a pro. Considering he was a lock to start at LT the day he was drafted, that alone would indicate they are souring on him.

The difference being that Estes wasn't very good, while Pace is. And Williams is still starting, unlike Cruz. I just don't really see how starting a player can constitute souring on him. I see it more as the Cubs calling up Vitters to play first instead of third. His true position is still third, but the need (in theory) is greater for him to play first. That's not even close to the same. NFL doesn't have minor leagues. They also have a salary cap. Williams draft status and contract means he will play somewhere, regardless of how the coaches feel about him. But going from Day 1 left tackle starter to maybe moving over to RT and possibly competing with a guy cut by Cleveland looks to me like a coaching staff souring on a guy.

The Bears gave up on Mark Bradley immediately once he got injured. Williams didn't make it to day 2 of practice. Football coaches routinely hold injuries against the player. It may be bizarre, and they may deny it, but it's true. They drafted Williams with the intention of starting him from day 1, but he got hurt in non-contact drills. The Bears struggled partly due to a weak line, Lovie was more or less forced to demote his best friend, his name went to the top of the chopping block. It would not surprise me in the least if Williams is no longer thought of the same way they thought of him on draft day.

the way things stand now, yes. I was assuming they'd find at least another backup middle infielder before the season started. It will be interesting to see how they handle double switches, as well as those days when they want to rest Aramis, make him unavailable, but not put him on the DL.