Sammy Sofa

I just don't see how any argument that entails making the protest more palatable to the people it's pissing off, targeted at, or are too chicken to join in makes any kind of sense. As soon as you do that, it's failed.

I'm not saying it should be focused AT them; I'm saying they're part of the problem that's being protested. They don't deserve any kind of special exemption from a protest over issues that they very much at the core of, and yet they already have it with the kneeling and still people lie to themselves about how this is "offensive." They cry that this is a disrespectful act, when the military has been actively LEFT OUT of a protest and actually PAID TRIBUTE TO when they should be included as part of the problem. You can't point to the abuse by police and ignore a gigantic part of what's feeding that. Hell, if anything it's even more vital in this setting since the NFL is such a willing platform for the government and the military. Nobody's saying hey abusive cops who used to be military, you're cool with us. It's saying by kneeling during the Anthem they're not protesting the military itself. Yeah, I get that. I'm saying it's a needless distinction. If you're making the choice to use the platform of the anthem to protest to begin with, trying to add caveats to placate the willfully ignorant is a pointless effort. The people crying foul trying to ignore the reasons this is being done would be crying even if Kaep was saluting and wearing a shirt that said "I LOVE VETERANS" so long as he was also sitting or kneeling. Though, to be fair, it does serve a purpose in that you can point to it whenever some mouth-breathing starts slobbering about how it "disrespects the troops." It creates a talking point to counter with, so, hey, maybe not as pointless as I was thinking.

Damn, this is terrible.

I'm not saying it should be focused AT them; I'm saying they're part of the problem that's being protested. They don't deserve any kind of special exemption from a protest over issues that they very much at the core of, and yet they already have it with the kneeling and still people lie to themselves about how this is "offensive." They cry that this is a disrespectful act, when the military has been actively LEFT OUT of a protest and actually PAID TRIBUTE TO when they should be included as part of the problem. You can't point to the abuse by police and ignore a gigantic part of what's feeding that. Hell, if anything it's even more vital in this setting since the NFL is such a willing platform for the government and the military.

If they get Andy Samberg character-looking fool back I will jump for horsefeathering joy.

Again, the protest itself is already a concession to show respect to the troops; kneeling was started specifically to show the protests weren't directed at veterans and to show respect. This is in and of itself complete bull horsefeathers; the military and veterans are a GIGANTIC part of the very core of why Kaep started doing this in the first place. One of the biggest problems with the police is the increasing militarization of it, both in how they're equipped and armed, as well as who is becoming our police officers. Joining the police is a VERY common career path for those who were in the military, and since we've had two ongoing wars for almost 15 years now, you've had the police forces basically inundated with people who approach being a cop (and are often encouraged to do so) as if they're still fighting a war. This increased aggressive, violent approach has played no small part into people reacting to violent abuses of power by cops. The military and veterans, IMO, deserve NO exception from these protests, and should actually be one of the main targets. Oh, and you've had hate groups and far Right types talking for decades now how infiltrating the military, local government and police forces were key approaches to keeping their ideas and rhetoric alive and to give it power. So the idea that this protest should be further tailored to show the military respect and let them off the hook is, quite frankly, abhorrent, and actually completely flies in the face of why the protests were started in the first place. It's an inoffensive protest tailored to honor people culpable in what's being protested in the first place, yet apparently it's still too "offensive" and it should be changed so that white people feel more comfortable seeing it, or maybe, only if they feel like it and aren't too scared, actually taking part. The idea that this protest is over the line or that it's the protester's failing that the message has been "lost" on some is absurd.

Because they're wrong; the kneeling was done instead of sitting or staying off the field intentionally to SHOW respect to the troops because it was known this was going to be such a BS reason people flocked to to try and dismiss the protests. The protests had nothing to do with veterans or troops to begin with, yet they were changed specifically to actually show respect to people they had nothing to do with in the first place, so people wailing still that it's disrespectful to the troops are full of horsefeathers. STRONGLY disagree. They're afraid or don't give a horsefeathers because they're white men. There are no stakes for them in this outside of losing money, so they've chosen that over the right thing to do. Trying to cater to them to make them comfortable is backwards; this is a litmus test to see who is willing to actually step up.

The main disconnect here seems to be that you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the people opposing the protests that their main beef is legitimately "disrespecting the anthem/troops/veterans." Personally, I think that's mostly disingenuous dog-whistling, and that's one of the main reasons to do a protest like this in the first place. Expose those people because, again, they are a huge part of what's being protested.

The cops that kill innocent people are the bus company. Ohhhhhhhk I get it now. I disagree. What they're protesting are the conditions that allow for the cops to kill with impunity. You know, the same thing that BLM is about. And something that Kaep said long ago; this is about the system that fosters things like militarized killer cops. The people wailing and gnashing their teeth about these protests are fully part of that. Hell, this whole thing is just a modified version of how civil rights activists in the 50's and 60's and 70's were constantly attacked as being (or being the pawns of) "communists and communist agitators." Attempt to devalue and attack the validity of the protests and the protests by throwing into question their patriotism and loyalty and even their very identity as Americans. This playbook has been around forever, and trying to spin this as an attack on "the troops" or "veterans" is just a modernized version of that.

Exactly; this is a fluid thing. There's no one moment where you're going suddenly see a bunch of converts, or a timeframe to when it's "fixed." This is all about the long game; how this will be remembered and talked about. If it gets one person to change their mind, or someone's kid to remember how ridiculous their dad was flipping out over this and deciding to be different, or if it gets someone who becomes a cop to decide down the line they're not going to just look the other way when they see their power abused....it's all about the cracks.

Again, you're looking at this completely unrealistically. The reason that things like the racist bus company exist and the imbalance of police power is due in no small part to the people who are willfully opposed to these protests. You're talking like the people that are pissed off are people who are missed opportunities, but they're not; they're one of the main parts of what's being protested! They're culpable! They are the bus company.

Far fewer people would be incensed by a protest that didn't involve a real or perceived slight to the anthem or flag, yes. And there'd be far fewer excuses. The national conversation wouldn't be about patriotism, or respect for the military, or "love it or leave it." You'd have the same tired trope around athletes being spoiled and "stick to sports!!!!11" but there would be far less outrage. Then "stick to sports!" would just be the foisted narrative instead; they'd make up any and every excuse to try and denigrate the protests. There's no magic time or method of protest in these settings where the people opposed are just going to shut up and take it, and certainly not one where they're mostly going to approach it reasonably. They will find any excuse to try and denigrate and dismiss the protests and the protestors because ultimately they can't stand what the protests are actually about. They don't want to have to confront something ugly and ongoing in this setting, which is the whole point of protests like this in the first place. You force people out of their comfort zone with what you're trying to say. And, yeah, you're going to lose a ton of people you never had in the first place, but again, you make the cracks where you can. Every little bit helps. Far more than attempting to cater unnecessarily to people who want to see this shut down by any means necessary.

You're implied expectations are still completely unrealistic as an expectation for some kind of "right" way to protest that isn't going to infuriate people, and is going to be taken "the right way" while still having anyone even bothering to pay attention in the first place. A discussion as to whether it's offensive or not is still a discussion because of the protests and a discussion that will bring up the actual reasons of the protest. There's never going to be a way to do this where it doesn't piss off a bunch of people and where the message isn't going to be intentionally muddled; that's impossible to avoid. Yet again, there is no time of the game where players could protest like this and it wouldn't get tagged as "inappropriate" or "offensive" by tons of people, especially since the NFL has so shamelessly draped itself in the flag and the military. That the protests have continued to inspire this much ongoing debate means they've succeeded. Again, I go back to this: Just one. That's it. What is the model or the example these protests should be following that didn't infuriate people.

Let's say at the start of the second half, before taking the field, an entire team comes out and all the players take a knee for an entire minute. They refuse to take the field until this is accomplished. Or maybe they all just bow their heads and raise a fist in the air. Or they all get down on their knees and put their hands above their head. There's no flag, no anthem, and the reasons are the same. Do you honestly think that the people bothered by the anthem protests wouldn't almost all also be similarly bothered by such a display? Of course they would.

Again, you're operating under the assumption that most of the people opposed to this simply aren't aware of any of the reasons that the players are actually doing it. That is, to be blunt, complete horse horsefeathers. Things like this and BLM have had so much attention and coverage in recent years that it really does require someone to consciously decide to take this the wrong way. They're not just saying, "oh, this protest also happens to be disrespectful to the troops/veterans." They're effectively saying, "oh, they're doing this to be disrespectful to the troops/veterans." And now can the messaging be better? We just see over and over and over and over again that a huge portion of the country just DOES NOT want to hear about these sorts of things. You've got people peacefully using the platform they have to silently protest AND in a way designed to actually show respect to the people that those opposed to this are lying to themselves in regards to what this is about or trying to do. The problem isn't in the message. The problem is obviously with the people that are the root cause as to why the message even exists in the first damn place. Yes, and you have zero chance of reaching them unless you put it right in their face. There's few better options to do so than by using the platform provided by professional sports. Again, there is literally no way a player could protest these issues on the field without it being deemed disrespectful by a massive part of the audience. None. You say the problem is in the delivery, when there is no alternate version that those opposed would find acceptable.

Yeah, it's pretty damn bonkers how quickly it blew up in everyone's faces. I thought it was amazing that they signed him, and that it was all but a lock that not only would he be as good as he had been, but that the Cubs were going to get him to that next level power-wise.

Please point to one...just one...civil rights/racial protest that wasn't perceived as offensive or disrespectful or over the line or anything along those lines. You're basically digging yourself into the hole that inexplicably expects protestors to only protest at a time and in a way and in a place that's most convenient and palatable to the people outside of the protests. That's simply not how these things work. If people refuse to understand what the protests are about (and mark my word, most people are doing just that), then the problem is with them, not the protestors doing a silent, peaceful gesture designed to both bring attention to their protest AND pay respect. The expectation that they could somehow be more clear or less "offensive" is absurd level of expectation that only caters to those that want to bully them into silence.

Again, so much the "disrespecting the military" narrative is willfully created; it's done intentionally to distract from how the players are protesting for very real, much more complicated issues. To blame that on the protests themselves is completely backwards. Americans LOVE twisting and lying about protests, especially when it comes to issues focused on black Americans, so it requires doing something as attention-grabbing as protests on this level to even just get a fraction of the population actually hearing about or talking about why they're protesting. There's ALWAYS going to be a ton of noise when you're trying to say something that a LOT of people intentionally try to not hear. You've got to keep pushing it for the few that do. Create cracks, no matter how small. It's a ridiculously unrealistic expectation to think someone is going to come up with a protest regarding racial issues that's going to be widely embraced and understood. It's always going to be an uphill battle with a TON of pushback...but that's the absolute last reason to give up.

The point is to do something that's going to bring attention, and yes, the actual issues Kaep and co. have done this over HAVE been given more attention because of the stage it's happening on. Just because the willfully false narrative of how it's about "hating America" or "disrespecting the troops" also exists doesn't mean they should give up; it's arguably proof that the protest is horsefeathering working in the first place because it means at the very least discussions/debates/arguments along these lines keep happening all over the country. I mean, the gist of your post seemingly is, "well, people aren't embracing and understanding the protests 100%, so why bother?" The reason they're protesting to begin with is because it's pointing to things that make many Americans uncomfortable because they don't want to see or hear or admit that there's any truth to it. The point isn't to sway a crowd of 100 people to your side; if you get even just 10 of those people listening then it's succeeded. THEY DON'T EVEN NEED BASEBALL AVERAGE-LEVELS OF SUCCESS, PEOPLE.

This is a continual false equivalency; people who are protesting or support the protests criticize or make fun of people on the other side of the issue, but they're by and large not calling for those opposed to be silenced. Too many of the people opposed to the protests want the NFL (or a higher power) to actually punish the players protesting and force them to stop. It's not a matter of two sides simply having different opinions.

It was obvious sarcasm belittling how dumb an opinion it is.

That motherjumper said "yipee" and everything.

Hahahahah!

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