Computer challenge High average hitters vs Power hitter

[CuseCubFan69]

A lot of you like playing the computer games so let me know if any of you can hook up a season with the same pitchers on both teams and put these players or the like against each other:

 

Irchiro and Gwynn type hitters with a high average but swing at a lot of pitches thus having a relatively low OBP compared to average while playing very good defense vs Dunn and other hitters that have high power high OBP but a low batting average and below average defense. I'm curious who would win this.

[erik316wttn]

A lot of you like playing the computer games so let me know if any of you can hook up a season with the same pitchers on both teams and put these players or the like against each other:

 

Irchiro and Gwynn type hitters with a high average but swing at a lot of pitches thus having a relatively low OBP compared to average while playing very good defense vs Dunn and other hitters that have high power high OBP but a low batting average and below average defense. I'm curious who would win this.

 

Run about 30 seasons, too, to get a good sample size.

[rawaction]

CF-Pierre

RF-Ichiro

LF-Crawford

3b- Mueller

SS- Eckstein

2B- Castillo

1B- Casey

C- Kendall

 

vs.

 

LF-Dunn

CF- A Jones

RF- P Wilson

3B- Glaus

SS- A. Gonzalez (FLA)

2b- Soriano

1b- Broussard (not much to pick from)

C- J Lopez

[David]

CF-Pierre

RF-Ichiro

LF-Crawford

3b- Mueller

SS- Eckstein

2B- Castillo

1B- Casey

C- Kendall

 

vs.

 

LF-Dunn

CF- A Jones

RF- P Wilson

3B- Glaus

SS- A. Gonzalez (FLA)

2b- Soriano

1b- Broussard (not much to pick from)

C- J Lopez

 

I'd switch Soriano and Castillo, despite the power differences.. Castillo is much more of an OBP guy than Soriano is..hell, I might even make it Todd Walker on the OBP/SLG team...and I'm not sure Wilson belongs with the high OBPers either.....

 

Ah, hell, I'll just list my own..

 

high avg/low relative OBP guys, swing at a lot /good de

 

C - Pudge Rodriguez

1B - Sean Casey

2B - Alfonso Soriano

3B - Shea Hillenbrand?

SS - David Eckstein

LF - Carl Crawford

CF - Willy Taveras

RF - Ichiro

 

low avg/high obp, high slg guys/bad de

C - Jorge Posada

1B - Richie Sexson

2B - Todd Walker

3B - Troy Glaus

LF - Adam Dunn

CF - Brad Wilkerson

RF - Geoff Jenkins?

 

It was tough to stick to all the qualifications, did my best though...paid more attention to the offensive stuff, but took defense into account when I could.

[Warren Brusstar]

OK. I've played a 20 seasons on DMB, using 2004 statistics, with the lineups below. I gave each team an identical pitching staff and placed each team in a "neutral park":

 

Detroit (High Average, No Walks, Modest Power)

Alex Sanchez, CF

Ichiro, RF

Jason Kendall, C

Sean Casey, 1B

Shea Hillenbrand, 3B

Carl Crawford, LF

Jack Wilson, SS

Tony Womack, SS

 

All of the above were +.300 hitters (other than Crawford) with sub-.400 OBP (other than Ichiro) and sub .500 slugging (other than Casey)

 

 

Oakland (Low Average, High Walks, Good Power)

Mark Bellhorn, 2B

Milton Bradley, LF

Carlos Beltran, CF

Jim Thome, 1B

Eric Chavez, 3B

Jorge Posada, C

Brad Wilkerson, RF

Bobby Crosby

 

All of the above hit .278 or lower, with a good number walks.

 

 

I gave each team an identical pitching staff (which I picked at random):

 

Maddux, Ishii, Escobar, Pavano, Batista

Timlin, Mitre, Marte, Hoffman, Wise

 

I ran 20 simulations. Team B (Oakland) was better in 19 of the 20 seasons, with a high win total of 102, a low total of 80, and an average of 87 wins. All but 2 of the 20 sims had Oakland winning between 80-89 games. In the two outliers, they won 96 and 102 games.

[CuseCubFan69]

OK. I've played a 20 seasons on DMB, using 2004 statistics, with the lineups below. I gave each team an identical pitching staff and placed each team in a "neutral park":

 

Detroit (High Average, No Walks, Modest Power)

Alex Sanchez, CF

Ichiro, RF

Jason Kendall, C

Sean Casey, 1B

Shea Hillenbrand, 3B

Carl Crawford, LF

Jack Wilson, SS

Tony Womack, SS

 

All of the above were +.300 hitters (other than Crawford) with sub-.400 OBP (other than Ichiro) and sub .500 slugging (other than Casey)

 

 

Oakland (Low Average, High Walks, Good Power)

Mark Bellhorn, 2B

Milton Bradley, LF

Carlos Beltran, CF

Jim Thome, 1B

Eric Chavez, 3B

Jorge Posada, C

Brad Wilkerson, RF

Bobby Crosby

 

All of the above hit .278 or lower, with a good number walks.

 

 

I gave each team an identical pitching staff (which I picked at random):

 

Maddux, Ishii, Escobar, Pavano, Batista

Timlin, Mitre, Marte, Hoffman, Wise

 

I ran 20 simulations. Team B (Oakland) was better in 19 of the 20 seasons, with a high win total of 102, a low total of 80, and an average of 87 wins. All but 2 of the 20 sims had Oakland winning between 80-89 games. In the two outliers, they won 96 and 102 games.

 

Thanks..that's very interesting. Where both teams managed by the same kind of manager?

[UK1679666180]

Shouldn't this be done with players w/similar OPS though? OPS outweighs avg., obp, and slg.

[Careless]

Shouldn't this be done with players w/similar OPS though? OPS outweighs avg., obp, and slg.

How could you possibly match a high obp/slg team with a high BA/low slg/low walk team?

[CuseCubFan69]

Shouldn't this be done with players w/similar OPS though? OPS outweighs avg., obp, and slg.

 

Sure. I was just trying to see hwo the different stats measure up and since I'm not that into stats you guys that are would know more than I do.

[UK1679666180]

Exactly, that's what being done here. Even Ichiro who likely has the highest OPS on that squad can't even come close to the OPS of someone like Thome, Beltran, etc. of '04.

 

Even if they're lower OPS totals as would likely be the case. It's not out of the realm of possibility that'd you find a lineup that consists of 9 .280/.310/.400 player and a lineup that consists of .250/.310/.400 and then compare those.

 

But, if the 9 hitters with higher BAs also had the higher OPS they would score more runs than lower avg, higher slg.

 

You can't accurately judge one sector over another if the OPS catagory has that high of a variation.

 

You give me a team with a much higher OPS over the other and I'll predict a winner assuming an avg. pitching staff and defense.

[TruffleShuffle]

Get one team with high OBPs and the other with high SLGs... that would be more interesting. Like a team of high OBP, low power guys, versus a team of Sorianos and Reggie Sanders. I am betting on the OBP team.

[cubbieinexile]

You find a team with low slugging yet high OBP first.

 

Rod Carew

Carney Lansford

Luis Castillo

Willie Randolph

Jason Kendall

Kenny Lofton

Wade Boggs

Roger Cedeno

Tony Phillips

Brett Butler

Ozzie Smith

 

See a trend? Most high OBP low SLG guys are leadoff hitters and most have good averages, just not a lot of power

 

vs.

 

Sammy Sosa

Tony Armas

Juan Gonzalez

Jose Canseco

Richie Sexson

Andre Dawson

Matt Williams

Javy Lopez

Dave Winfield

[stitchface]

Exactly, that's what being done here. Even Ichiro who likely has the highest OPS on that squad can't even come close to the OPS of someone like Thome, Beltran, etc. of '04.

 

Even if they're lower OPS totals as would likely be the case. It's not out of the realm of possibility that'd you find a lineup that consists of 9 .280/.310/.400 player and a lineup that consists of .250/.310/.400 and then compare those.

 

But, if the 9 hitters with higher BAs also had the higher OPS they would score more runs than lower avg, higher slg.

 

You can't accurately judge one sector over another if the OPS catagory has that high of a variation.

 

You give me a team with a much higher OPS over the other and I'll predict a winner assuming an avg. pitching staff and defense.

 

You can judge that OPS is more important than BA. Duh, but there are still people that will argue the point. I don't think they have to have the same OPS - just the same SLP. This would show that OBP is more important than BA. But who cares who wins, lets just see who scores more runs.

[Careless]

Exactly, that's what being done here. Even Ichiro who likely has the highest OPS on that squad can't even come close to the OPS of someone like Thome, Beltran, etc. of '04.

 

Even if they're lower OPS totals as would likely be the case. It's not out of the realm of possibility that'd you find a lineup that consists of 9 .280/.310/.400 player and a lineup that consists of .250/.310/.400 and then compare those.

 

But, if the 9 hitters with higher BAs also had the higher OPS they would score more runs than lower avg, higher slg.

 

You can't accurately judge one sector over another if the OPS catagory has that high of a variation.

 

You give me a team with a much higher OPS over the other and I'll predict a winner assuming an avg. pitching staff and defense.

 

You can judge that OPS is more important than BA. Duh, but there are still people that will argue the point. I don't think they have to have the same OPS - just the same SLP. This would show that OBP is more important than BA. But who cares who wins, lets just see who scores more runs.

So match for slg but high obp vs high BA/not so high obp? sounds reasonable