Neifi and Sabermetrics

[RynoRules]

I think its crazy to exclude a guy who could be effective simply b/c the manager misuses him. The better option, IMO, is for Dusty's boss to tell him how he is to be used.

 

A GM doesn't tell a manager who to play or who not to play, a GM fires a manager who isn't on the same page as him. Hendry would be overstepping his boundaries if he wanted to become an arm-chair manager, that's our job.

 

That doesn't stop Billy Beane (source: "Moneyball"), and many on this bd. hold him up as one who runs his club the right way. He and Howe had many fallings-out re who should be used, in-game strategy, etc. Beane and his mentor, Sandy Alderson, disagree with the common baseball conception that the manager is the "face" of the team, and instead believe that the front office (specifically the GM) should set the tone.

 

Beane is the exeption to the rule. Name one other team in MLB that uses the manager that way.

 

Not my point. Point is that Beane does things that way and they win consistently.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I think its crazy to exclude a guy who could be effective simply b/c the manager misuses him. The better option, IMO, is for Dusty's boss to tell him how he is to be used.

 

A GM doesn't tell a manager who to play or who not to play, a GM fires a manager who isn't on the same page as him. Hendry would be overstepping his boundaries if he wanted to become an arm-chair manager, that's our job.

 

That doesn't stop Billy Beane (source: "Moneyball"), and many on this bd. hold him up as one who runs his club the right way. He and Howe had many fallings-out re who should be used, in-game strategy, etc. Beane and his mentor, Sandy Alderson, disagree with the common baseball conception that the manager is the "face" of the team, and instead believe that the front office (specifically the GM) should set the tone.

 

Beane is the exeption to the rule. Name one other team in MLB that uses the manager that way.

 

Not my point. Point is that Beane does things that way and they win consistently.

 

Beane also played professionally and has the necessary cred to pull that off. His method also wins games. He's fighting the old school vs. new school battle. Hendry isn't. Beane rules the manager through intimidation, both physically and through reputation. Hendry couldn't pull that off. The most he could do is threaten Baker's job...that isn't the threat you imagine it is. Baker could go out and get another job easily (and probably in a less media intensive environment). Hendry doesn't have the leverage to tell Baker what to do in the clubhouse.

[RynoRules]

Well, I guess there's no real way to refute that, other than to say that I disagree with nearly everything you posted.

[RynoRules]

They disagreed on who should play and who shouldn't and Howe was canned. Beane offered opinions on who should play, but Howe had the final say.

 

Can you actually see Hendry telling Baker; Cedeno should play and why Perez shouldn't?

 

I can't, it'll never happen.

 

I think that's incorrect. They disagreed, Howe gave his opinion, Beane told him where he could put that opinion in no uncertain terms, Howe ignored the warning, and Howe lost his job, in spite of the fact that his team had won 100 games that year.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Well, I guess there's no real way to refute that, other than to say that I disagree with nearly everything you posted.

 

well, that stuff about Beane is from Moneyball, the same source you used. i don't know how you can disagree with the same source you used to make your arguement. :?

[UK1679666180]

They disagreed on who should play and who shouldn't and Howe was canned. Beane offered opinions on who should play, but Howe had the final say.

 

Can you actually see Hendry telling Baker; Cedeno should play and why Perez shouldn't?

 

I can't, it'll never happen.

 

I think that's incorrect. They disagreed, Howe gave his opinion, Beane told him where he could put that opinion in no uncertain terms, Howe ignored the warning, and Howe lost his job, in spite of the fact that his team had won 100 games that year.

 

Disagree with what? The manager having the final say on which player plays and which is player is replaced in a particular situation in a game?

 

Howe had his ideas of how the 25 guys Beane brought him should be utilized and Beane has his idea, they weren't on the same wavelength and Beane in his position of authority wanted someone who was likely to manage the game similar to how Beane would.

 

Like I said, you think Hendry would tell Baker how to manage? I don't.

[JGalt73]

Neifi is a good defender. When adjusted for the season Neifi was 16 runs above average with the glove. Unfortunately, he was also 16 runs below average with the bat. So indeed, Neifi was a zero this year.

 

Neifi's DT stats

 

For comparison:

 

2005 totals

 

Player, total runs above average (BattingRAA, FieldingRAA)

 

Lee 85 (71, 14)

Ramirez 12 (25, -13)

Burnitz 7 (-1, 8 )

Murton 7 (8, -1)

Walker 4 (10, -6)

Neifi 0 (-16, 16)

Barrett –2 (9, -11)

Garciaparra –5 (1, -6)

Hairston –8 (-7, -1)

Macias -11 (-10, -1)

Patterson –26 (-26, 0)

 

I do not believe that the batting runs are adjusted for position as fielding runs are.

[RynoRules]

They disagreed on who should play and who shouldn't and Howe was canned. Beane offered opinions on who should play, but Howe had the final say.

 

Can you actually see Hendry telling Baker; Cedeno should play and why Perez shouldn't?

 

I can't, it'll never happen.

 

I think that's incorrect. They disagreed, Howe gave his opinion, Beane told him where he could put that opinion in no uncertain terms, Howe ignored the warning, and Howe lost his job, in spite of the fact that his team had won 100 games that year.

 

Disagree with what? The manager having the final say on which player plays and which is player is replaced in a particular situation in a game?

 

Howe had his ideas of how the 25 guys Beane brought him should be utilized and Beane has his idea, they weren't on the same wavelength and Beane in his position of authority wanted someone who was likely to manage the game similar to how Beane would.

 

Like I said, you think Hendry would tell Baker how to manage? I don't.

 

No, my point is that Howe clearly did not have the "final say". Beane made it clear several times who was in charge. He put the punctuation on that point by canning Art after he won 100 games for the second time.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

They disagreed on who should play and who shouldn't and Howe was canned. Beane offered opinions on who should play, but Howe had the final say.

 

Can you actually see Hendry telling Baker; Cedeno should play and why Perez shouldn't?

 

I can't, it'll never happen.

 

I think that's incorrect. They disagreed, Howe gave his opinion, Beane told him where he could put that opinion in no uncertain terms, Howe ignored the warning, and Howe lost his job, in spite of the fact that his team had won 100 games that year.

 

Disagree with what? The manager having the final say on which player plays and which is player is replaced in a particular situation in a game?

 

Howe had his ideas of how the 25 guys Beane brought him should be utilized and Beane has his idea, they weren't on the same wavelength and Beane in his position of authority wanted someone who was likely to manage the game similar to how Beane would.

 

Like I said, you think Hendry would tell Baker how to manage? I don't.

 

No, my point is that Howe clearly did not have the "final say". Beane made it clear several times who was in charge. He put the punctuation on that point by canning Art after he won 100 games for the second time.

 

Did Howe's approach win 100 games or did Beane do it by making him play station to station ball? Howe had limited impact on both those 100+ win teams.

[Warren Brusstar]

Neifi, not "Nefi."

 

...and CPat was also a good fielder who sucked it up at the dish. I don't hear anyone singing his praises.

 

Neifi is a much better defensive SS (as compared to other shortstops) than Corey is a defensive CF. Patterson is not in the same league as Hunter, Jones, Cameron, Edmonds.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Neifi, not "Nefi."

 

...and CPat was also a good fielder who sucked it up at the dish. I don't hear anyone singing his praises.

 

Neifi is a much better defensive SS (as compared to other shortstops) than Corey is a defensive CF. Patterson is not in the same league as Hunter, Jones, Cameron, Edmonds.

 

let edmonds, hunter, jones, and cameron play with a brick wall behind them. it's a completely different game.

 

edmonds? oh no, you didn't.

[cubbieinexile]

The point of this thread is that objective stats show that, if used correctly, Neifi can be an effective ML player.

 

It's almost impossible to use Neifi Perez correctly and get his production to be effective. His skill happens to be defense, and to have value on defense means you must play a lot to build up the value. It isn't like pinch hitting where you can come up to bat once hit a homer and then sit down. You mus be out there for a lot of innings to be of any value to your team. Consequently you must take your turn with the bat in order stay on the field. His bat is his weakness and it negates any of his value with the glove.

[UK1679666180]

No, my point is that Howe clearly did not have the "final say". Beane made it clear several times who was in charge. He put the punctuation on that point by canning Art after he won 100 games for the second time.

 

Beane was in charge of Howe's fate and the 25 guys Howe could use, as far as in-game managing, that was all on Howe and that's why he was canned.

 

Now, how does that potentially apply to Hendry/Baker?

[J.R.]

Screw Neifi and his sucky ballplaying.

[Warren Brusstar]

Neifi, not "Nefi."

 

...and CPat was also a good fielder who sucked it up at the dish. I don't hear anyone singing his praises.

 

Neifi is a much better defensive SS (as compared to other shortstops) than Corey is a defensive CF. Patterson is not in the same league as Hunter, Jones, Cameron, Edmonds.

 

let edmonds, hunter, jones, and cameron play with a brick wall behind them. it's a completely different game.

 

edmonds? oh no, you didn't.

 

 

FRAR for the past four seasons:

 

Patterson: 1, 6, 21, 13

 

Edmonds: 26, 20, 28, 34

 

 

I'm sure it's all the brick wall.

 

:roll:

 

I appreciate your patronizing tone, though. It might be less offensive if you had a clue about that which you're speaking.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Neifi, not "Nefi."

 

...and CPat was also a good fielder who sucked it up at the dish. I don't hear anyone singing his praises.

 

Neifi is a much better defensive SS (as compared to other shortstops) than Corey is a defensive CF. Patterson is not in the same league as Hunter, Jones, Cameron, Edmonds.

 

let edmonds, hunter, jones, and cameron play with a brick wall behind them. it's a completely different game.

 

edmonds? oh no, you didn't.

 

 

FRAR for the past four seasons:

 

Patterson: 1, 6, 21, 13

 

Edmonds: 26, 20, 28, 34

 

 

I'm sure it's all the brick wall.

 

:roll:

 

I appreciate your patronizing tone, though. It might be less offensive if you had a clue about that which you're speaking.

 

Don't you think that's a little over the top for a response as ambiguous as his? As much as I hate Edmonds, he's a fine defender, but fielding statistics are far from being as refined and conclusive as offensive numbers.

 

 

I also would like to start a movement to never use the eye roll emoticon again, ever, by anyone. Anyone with me?

[Warren Brusstar]

Neifi, not "Nefi."

 

...and CPat was also a good fielder who sucked it up at the dish. I don't hear anyone singing his praises.

 

Neifi is a much better defensive SS (as compared to other shortstops) than Corey is a defensive CF. Patterson is not in the same league as Hunter, Jones, Cameron, Edmonds.

 

let edmonds, hunter, jones, and cameron play with a brick wall behind them. it's a completely different game.

 

edmonds? oh no, you didn't.

 

 

FRAR for the past four seasons:

 

Patterson: 1, 6, 21, 13

 

Edmonds: 26, 20, 28, 34

 

 

I'm sure it's all the brick wall.

 

:roll:

 

I appreciate your patronizing tone, though. It might be less offensive if you had a clue about that which you're speaking.

 

Don't you think that's a little over the top for a response as ambiguous as his? As much as I hate Edmonds, he's a fine defender, but fielding statistics are far from being as refined and conclusive as offensive numbers.

 

 

I also would like to start a movement to never use the eye roll emoticon again, ever, by anyone. Anyone with me?

 

Fine with me. I'm just giving it back to him (the king of the eye roll)

[Chris]

It might be less offensive if you had a clue about that which you're speaking.

 

 

Not necessary.

[Lefty]

Neifi is a good defender. When adjusted for the season Neifi was 16 runs above average with the glove. Unfortunately, he was also 16 runs below average with the bat. So indeed, Neifi was a zero this year.

 

Neifi's DT stats

 

For comparison:

 

2005 totals

 

Player, total runs above average (BattingRAA, FieldingRAA)

 

Lee 85 (71, 14)

Ramirez 12 (25, -13)

Burnitz 7 (-1, 8 )

Murton 7 (8, -1)

Walker 4 (10, -6)

Neifi 0 (-16, 16)

Barrett –2 (9, -11)

Garciaparra –5 (1, -6)

Hairston –8 (-7, -1)

Macias -11 (-10, -1)

Patterson –26 (-26, 0)

 

I do not believe that the batting runs are adjusted for position as fielding runs are.

 

If the batting runs are unadjusted for position, you have a slightly above average ML performer. If Perez would bat eighth, he wouldn't be the reason we can't win. It's our OF production which is terrible, and is more easily and efficiently improved than SS. Would you rather have Furcal at SS and Preston Wilson in the outfield or Cedeno and Giles or Drew?

 

Patterson 26 runs below average! That's a AAA player-and not a particularly good one. An outfield of Murton, Hairston and anything better than Burnitz would be an improvement of a few games. Of course Lee's regression to a mere Superman would probably counteract that.

 

Preston Wilson is coming.

[RockTheIvy]

Preston Wilson is coming.

 

Kill the messenger! :lol: I kid I kid. That is terrible news though, and I really hope you are wrong.

[cubbieinexile]

Preston Wilson at a reasonable contract length and amount is not a bad option for CF. He would probably put up slightly better numbers then Burnitz this year with a higher chance of a breakout plus he would be playing CF to boot. I would put him at around .340 to .350 OBP with a .480 to .500 SLG and around 30 homers. With .330 and .460 being the lowend.

 

That way you have Murton, Wilson, and Hairston as your 4th OF plus a mystery guest at Right Field. Outfield free agents are a scary group this year full of scrubs and old guys so if anything its a trade that is going to have to make it happen in right field. you always have the Corey chit, plus the pitching chit. But looking around the majors I can't picture any team making a trade. Though of course my dream trade would be with Boston and Manny.

[Lefty]

Preston Wilson is coming.

 

Kill the messenger! :lol: I kid I kid. That is terrible news though, and I really hope you are wrong.

 

My record is terrible as well.

[Lefty]

Preston Wilson at a reasonable contract length and amount is not a bad option for CF. He would probably put up slightly better numbers then Burnitz this year with a higher chance of a breakout plus he would be playing CF to boot. I would put him at around .340 to .350 OBP with a .480 to .500 SLG and around 30 homers. With .330 and .460 being the lowend.

 

That way you have Murton, Wilson, and Hairston as your 4th OF plus a mystery guest at Right Field. Outfield free agents are a scary group this year full of scrubs and old guys so if anything its a trade that is going to have to make it happen in right field. you always have the Corey chit, plus the pitching chit. But looking around the majors I can't picture any team making a trade. Though of course my dream trade would be with Boston and Manny.

 

Preston Wilson isn't breaking out anymore.

 

There's no question there will have to be a trade. But sometimes that's how you have to improve. Aubrey Huff isn't the stud he appeared to be, but he's better than what we have. The Dodgers may want to dump salary or attitudes. And I think we have to get over the hoarding of prospects. If Rich Hill nets us Aubrey Huff, we do it.