Moneyballing?

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Uh....yea.....

[BigbadB]

All evidence surrounding Byrnes (who would have replaced Epstein as Bostons GM) and Daniels point to them being sabermetrically inclined GMs. Same thing for Schapiro and Jockety, just because its not shoved in your face by the media doesn't mean its not there. Its pretty well known by now that MGL over at Primer and scout.com has worked for the Cardinals, which is why its so hard to find anything recent with UZR (a defensive stat - shockingly used on a team whose pitching staff is very dependent on its defense).

 

You're acting like the things said in MoneyBall are new....they're not. Branch Rickey was saying this stuff 50 and 60 years ago....

 

You're right, anyone with a stats system for defense is SABRiffic. I'm walking away rather than being patronized by somebody who thinks reading a little BA makes him a statistician.

 

I believe it is you that is patronizing others.

[cubbieinexile]

I don't think the conversation should be about GM's who use stats and those who don't use stats. They all use stats, they always did. I have a friend who is a retired Chicago White Sox Media exec who used to hang out with Charlie O of KC. Back then Charlie had his insurance business based in Chicago, and was the front office of the A's. Do you know how Charlie made his trades and signings for hitters? He would look at batting average. Thats right batting average, he would look at their careers, see if their average was stable, did it fluctuate, was it declining. Thats how he made his picks, so looking at stats is nothing new. Whats new and what should be talked about is what a GM values. Is a GM looking for retreads, is he looking for youth, does he value pitching, does he value defense. How does he value it. Does he perfer to go with a veteran glove man with no stick over a unproven youngster with a glove and no stick. What is he willing to spend money on? Will he spend 8 million dollars and 4 years on a 30+ league average second basemen? Will he commit 20 year old kid from single A instead? Then from there what is important is his organizational structure. What is his plan for the minors, for free agents, for foriegn development? Who are the people he is putting in charge, what do they do and how do they do it?

 

Those are the questions that are important, not whether or not a GM likes walks.

[RynoRules]

Moneyball is a book, not an adjective.

 

:roll:

 

C'mon now. Its like any other "noun" or "title" that has taken on a life of its own and become a desriptive term. Like "Rollerblading", which is actually in-line skating.

 

And BTW, I think Mr. Miles is in a far better position to judge Hughes than we are. I would also note that he qualified his statement re Hughes by saying that he didn't think too many folks on this bd. would agree with him. There's a message there.

Edited November 2, 2005 by RynoRules

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Moneyball is a book, not an adjective.

 

:roll:

 

C'mon now. Its like any other "noun" or "title" that has taken on a life of its own and become a desriptive term. Like "Rollerblading", which is actually in-line skating.

 

Okay, then it's an overused adjective, and one that is sure to cause a lot of unnecessary argumentation due to people interpreting it in wildly different ways.

[RynoRules]

Moneyball is a book, not an adjective.

 

:roll:

 

C'mon now. Its like any other "noun" or "title" that has taken on a life of its own and become a desriptive term. Like "Rollerblading", which is actually in-line skating.

 

Okay, then it's an overused adjective, and one that is sure to cause a lot of unnecessary argumentation due to people interpreting it in wildly different ways.

 

Could be. I know what I think when I read it, but you may have another opinion.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I don't think Epstein's resignation has anything to do with the stats v. scouts issue. DePo got a raw deal, but I haven't followed the situation to see if it was just fan backlash or philosophical differences.

 

So you are thinking it is a coincedence that the only two "moneyballers" besides Bean were let go/walked away?

 

I'm not saying it's not but I find it interesting. The Gary Hughes' of the world hate the stat heads.

 

I won't get many on this board to agree with me, but Gary Hughes doesn't "hate" the "stat heads." He's one of the more open-minded guys I've been around, and believe it or not, he relies on stats. He just happens to value the opinions of scouts. I think he has a pretty impressive record of procuring talent in places like Montreal and Florida. Just think of the teams Montreal could have had if they had money.

I've talked to Gary on numerous occasions and find him very enlightened on a lot of trends in baseball. My belief is that there is plenty of room in this game for input from all sides. Theo Epstein, another talented guy, isn't just a "Moneyball" disciple. He relies on scouts, too. He'll be a tremendous addition to his next organization. Too bad for him and the Red Sox he lost a power struggle in Boston.

 

I'm glad you brought that perspective, Bruce. I think most of our opinions of Hughes, including mine, was colored by comments he made in a BA roundtable discussion. There was a link to it somewhere...(help please). In that discussion, he made comments that were taken to make him look as if he were very closed-minded to the new way of thinking about things.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I got the same impression of Hughes. He really pissed me off with that...

[Splendid_Splinter]

I'm glad you brought that perspective, Bruce. I think most of our opinions of Hughes, including mine, was colored by comments he made in a BA roundtable discussion. There was a link to it somewhere...(help please). In that discussion, he made comments that were taken to make him look as if he were very closed-minded to the new way of thinking about things.

 

Here's the link that should take you to the discussion when the article came out.

[Bruce Miles]

I remember the roundtable, as well. The moderator was pleased with what both sides had so say. It's hard to capture voice tone and such in print, and I'm sure Gary came off more harsh than it seemed. Back in March, I did a feature package on the whole scouts vs. stats thing _ you'd be surprised at how many people in the our general readership had no idea such a debate existed (we're a very specialized group here). In any event, Gary gave me a quote that said that the "work these (stats) people have done is phenomenal." He also told me that when he picks up a stat sheet at the ballpark, the first thing he looks at is on-base percentage. I have no reason not to believe him on that, and again, look at his track record over time. It's pretty good.

As a whole, though, the Cubs really do need to start looking at the more sabermetrically oriented stats and how to apply them. You balance that with good scouting, and you've got something.

[RynoRules]

I remember the roundtable, as well. The moderator was pleased with what both sides had so say. It's hard to capture voice tone and such in print, and I'm sure Gary came off more harsh than it seemed. Back in March, I did a feature package on the whole scouts vs. stats thing _ you'd be surprised at how many people in the our general readership had no idea such a debate existed (we're a very specialized group here). In any event, Gary gave me a quote that said that the "work these (stats) people have done is phenomenal." He also told me that when he picks up a stat sheet at the ballpark, the first thing he looks at is on-base percentage. I have no reason not to believe him on that, and again, look at his track record over time. It's pretty good.

As a whole, though, the Cubs really do need to start looking at the more sabermetrically oriented stats and how to apply them. You balance that with good scouting, and you've got something.

 

Bless you, sir. Balance, Daniel-son!