Predict the Apology

[CuseCubFan69]

Is that what the replay said? I saw AJP run while the ump was signaling the out. Also, as I've asked the others....did he really CALL him out?

 

He pulls his arm in and clinches his fist, which is what I always thought was the signal for out.

 

I don't think you can see his lips to be able to tell if he yelled "you're out" unfortunately. I know for a fact that HS umps pump their fist for the 3rd strike but do not yell you're out until the play has been made. It's a habit when a strike is called.

 

But this ump does not, as every other at bat showed. The fist pump means out. If it meant strike three, but your not out then why on dropped balls did he not pump his fist until the play was finished.

 

But did he delay like that? Something was up with the delay.

[Chris]

I said 100%. The Angels have a very valid arguement I have never denied that. Also, for anyone that taped the game I think it would matter what the ump did the whole game to determine his pattern for K's.

 

This was printed earlier in this thread. In addition, BBTN did a video recap of every incident like the one in the bottom of the 9th. He clearly did the same movement for every swinging strike that was not dropped.

 

In regards to rules, there is nothing I can find that says that an umpire has to say a ruling. In regards to the delayed call, here's what MLB tells the umpires under rule 9.05:

 

Do not call the plays too quickly, or turn away too fast when a fielder is throwing to complete a double play. Watch out for dropped balls after you have called a man out. Do not come running with your arm up or down, denoting "out" or "safe." Wait until the play is completed before making any arm motion.

[adamb0719]

Is that what the replay said? I saw AJP run while the ump was signaling the out. Also, as I've asked the others....did he really CALL him out?

 

He pulls his arm in and clinches his fist, which is what I always thought was the signal for out.

 

I don't think you can see his lips to be able to tell if he yelled "you're out" unfortunately. I know for a fact that HS umps pump their fist for the 3rd strike but do not yell you're out until the play has been made. It's a habit when a strike is called.

 

But this ump does not, as every other at bat showed. The fist pump means out. If it meant strike three, but your not out then why on dropped balls did he not pump his fist until the play was finished.

 

But did he delay like that? Something was up with the delay.

 

Regardless of the delay he made the signal. Why make it if the play is not done?

[CuseCubFan69]

True but AJP didn't run right away until he saw the delay as he was turned around and heading back to the bench. That happened before AJP took off and caused AJP to think the ball hit the ground.

 

Regardless of whether or not he saw the signal he was called out by the umpire.

 

If the Angels actually heard "You're out" then they have a 100% legit beef. If they assumed they heard it then we have a problem. I'm curious on what Paul heard.

 

Doesn't the fact the there was the fist pump, signaling him out, make the beef legit?

 

I said 100%. The Angels have a very valid arguement I have never denied that. Also, for anyone that taped the game I think it would matter what the ump did the whole game to determine his pattern for K's.

 

they went through that on BBTN last nite....he clearly made the same call on all swinging third strikes...he would raise his right hand signaling no contact and do the fist pump....he called ajp out, it' clear.

 

He delayed a lot more with that K then he did the previous ones. His indecision caused this whole debacle.

[frostwyrm]

The concept of the home plate ump asking for help simply doesn't work for a dropped strike 3 because it takes too long. Help should be automatic. The more I think about it I believe a strikeout should require the approval of 2 umps - at home plate and the appropriate line for LH or RH batters. That way when a catcher hears the home plate ump call a strikeout he can immediately look over to the 3B or 1B ump and get a visual 2nd verification. With this rule in place Josh Paul simply could have looked over at the 3B ump after Pierzynksi's swing, and if the ump had been animatedly pointing a finger down at the turf Paul would know that the ump was signaling a bounced ball and a live runner. Of course a standard fist would have signalled a K.

[CuseCubFan69]

I said 100%. The Angels have a very valid arguement I have never denied that. Also, for anyone that taped the game I think it would matter what the ump did the whole game to determine his pattern for K's.

 

This was printed earlier in this thread. In addition, BBTN did a video recap of every incident like the one in the bottom of the 9th. He clearly did the same movement for every swinging strike that was not dropped.

 

In regards to rules, there is nothing I can find that says that an umpire has to say a ruling. In regards to the delayed call, here's what MLB tells the umpires under rule 9.05:

 

Do not call the plays too quickly, or turn away too fast when a fielder is throwing to complete a double play. Watch out for dropped balls after you have called a man out. Do not come running with your arm up or down, denoting "out" or "safe." Wait until the play is completed before making any arm motion.

 

Then my question is what does he do to tell the difference between strike 3 and you're out? He put his hand out to say it was not a foul ball but what would he do to say it's a strike but not an out?

 

By the way, this will be a great lesson for my kids!

[CaliforniaRaisin]

True but AJP didn't run right away until he saw the delay as he was turned around and heading back to the bench. That happened before AJP took off and caused AJP to think the ball hit the ground.

 

Regardless of whether or not he saw the signal he was called out by the umpire.

 

If the Angels actually heard "You're out" then they have a 100% legit beef. If they assumed they heard it then we have a problem. I'm curious on what Paul heard.

 

Doesn't the fact the there was the fist pump, signaling him out, make the beef legit?

 

I said 100%. The Angels have a very valid arguement I have never denied that. Also, for anyone that taped the game I think it would matter what the ump did the whole game to determine his pattern for K's.

 

Chronicles of the Lads[/url]"]Eddings, on strikes three that hit the ground earlier in the game, always waited to pump his fist until after the batter was tagged, in some sense "completing" the strike.

 

In fact, this happened to Aaron Rowand, the batter immediately prior to Pierzynski. Strike three was in the dirt; Eddings extended his right arm to mark that no contact was made, Paul tagged Rowand, and then Eddings makes the fist motion. The exact same scenario played out with the final out of the White Sox 8th, the first out of the White Sox 6th, and the last out of the Angel 6th.

 

The fist pump is indeed the motion that Eddings makes for all strike calls. But it also true that there are zero instances of him pumping the fist before the tag on a swinging strike in the dirt.

 

Here's an instructive example: when Brendan Donnelly struck out Dye to end the fifth, Dye swung and missed at a ball nowhere near the dirt. Eddings extended his right arm to indicate no contact, and then made the fist. Everyone walked off the field with no problem.

 

Top of the sixth: Bengie Molina at the plate. Swing and a miss on a ball in the dirt. Eddings puts out the right arm. AJ tags Molina -- and then Eddings pumps the fist. It's clear that the fist, in this context, means that he's out.

 

Bottom of the sixth: Konerko strikes out on a ball in the dirt. It was a check swing. Eddings points at the bat to indicate he swung, but didn't make the forceful out call until Konerko was tagged.

 

Bottom of the eighth: Konerko strikes out on a ball in the dirt. Eddings points at Konerko's bat to indicate he swung (he had tried to check, but it was a clear swing). He does not make the fist pump until Konerko is tagged.

 

I already discussed Rowand in the bottom of the ninth.

 

On AJ's strikeout, Paul rolls the ball behind Escobar ... who did not go for the ball. He's looking toward home ... but no clip shows whether or not he saw the fist pump. BUT ... as Pierzynski is running to first, Escobar makes a motion to Eddings that seems to indicate that he did see it. There's a great shot of this on the Fox broadcast after Escobar's first pickoff throw to first, that is aimed right up the first base line. (UPDATE: Jim Caple quotes Escobar as saying, "I was right there, how many feet away. I didn't see if the ball hit the dirt, but I saw the umpire point and call him out. That's all I needed to see.")

 

Orlando Cabrera, Adam Kennedy, and Darin Erstad immediately protest, miming the fist pump that Eddings made. Basically, everyone in earshot who was watching the umpire had a chance to tell Escobar to go pick up the ball, and they didn't, because Eddings behaved in the exact same manner as he had after every strike three had been completed.

 

Eddings third-strike-in-the-dirt MO was clear; pump the fist when the tag is made. As he pumped the fist, Escobar, Cabrera, Kennedy, and Figgins all believed the out was recorded. If he truly believed the ball was in the dirt, he should not have pumped his fist, as his hand to the side motion had already demonstrated that no contact was made on the pitch.

[adamb0719]

I said 100%. The Angels have a very valid arguement I have never denied that. Also, for anyone that taped the game I think it would matter what the ump did the whole game to determine his pattern for K's.

 

This was printed earlier in this thread. In addition, BBTN did a video recap of every incident like the one in the bottom of the 9th. He clearly did the same movement for every swinging strike that was not dropped.

 

In regards to rules, there is nothing I can find that says that an umpire has to say a ruling. In regards to the delayed call, here's what MLB tells the umpires under rule 9.05:

 

Do not call the plays too quickly, or turn away too fast when a fielder is throwing to complete a double play. Watch out for dropped balls after you have called a man out. Do not come running with your arm up or down, denoting "out" or "safe." Wait until the play is completed before making any arm motion.

 

Then my question is what does he do to tell the difference between strike 3 and you're out? He put his hand out to say it was not a foul ball but what would he do to say it's a strike but not an out?

 

By the way, this will be a great lesson for my kids!

 

Do you coach a youth team?

[CuseCubFan69]

Is that what the replay said? I saw AJP run while the ump was signaling the out. Also, as I've asked the others....did he really CALL him out?

 

He pulls his arm in and clinches his fist, which is what I always thought was the signal for out.

 

I don't think you can see his lips to be able to tell if he yelled "you're out" unfortunately. I know for a fact that HS umps pump their fist for the 3rd strike but do not yell you're out until the play has been made. It's a habit when a strike is called.

 

But this ump does not, as every other at bat showed. The fist pump means out. If it meant strike three, but your not out then why on dropped balls did he not pump his fist until the play was finished.

 

But did he delay like that? Something was up with the delay.

 

Regardless of the delay he made the signal. Why make it if the play is not done?

 

To say it was a strike.

[CuseCubFan69]

I said 100%. The Angels have a very valid arguement I have never denied that. Also, for anyone that taped the game I think it would matter what the ump did the whole game to determine his pattern for K's.

 

This was printed earlier in this thread. In addition, BBTN did a video recap of every incident like the one in the bottom of the 9th. He clearly did the same movement for every swinging strike that was not dropped.

 

In regards to rules, there is nothing I can find that says that an umpire has to say a ruling. In regards to the delayed call, here's what MLB tells the umpires under rule 9.05:

 

Do not call the plays too quickly, or turn away too fast when a fielder is throwing to complete a double play. Watch out for dropped balls after you have called a man out. Do not come running with your arm up or down, denoting "out" or "safe." Wait until the play is completed before making any arm motion.

 

Then my question is what does he do to tell the difference between strike 3 and you're out? He put his hand out to say it was not a foul ball but what would he do to say it's a strike but not an out?

 

By the way, this will be a great lesson for my kids!

 

Do you coach a youth team?

 

High School.

[adamb0719]

I said 100%. The Angels have a very valid arguement I have never denied that. Also, for anyone that taped the game I think it would matter what the ump did the whole game to determine his pattern for K's.

 

This was printed earlier in this thread. In addition, BBTN did a video recap of every incident like the one in the bottom of the 9th. He clearly did the same movement for every swinging strike that was not dropped.

 

In regards to rules, there is nothing I can find that says that an umpire has to say a ruling. In regards to the delayed call, here's what MLB tells the umpires under rule 9.05:

 

Do not call the plays too quickly, or turn away too fast when a fielder is throwing to complete a double play. Watch out for dropped balls after you have called a man out. Do not come running with your arm up or down, denoting "out" or "safe." Wait until the play is completed before making any arm motion.

 

Then my question is what does he do to tell the difference between strike 3 and you're out? He put his hand out to say it was not a foul ball but what would he do to say it's a strike but not an out?

 

By the way, this will be a great lesson for my kids!

 

Do you coach a youth team?

 

High School.

 

That's cool. Bet there will be a lot more batters getting tagged after strike 3's from now on. :wink:

[Chris]

Then my question is what does he do to tell the difference between strike 3 and you're out?

 

He did what he was supposed to do. He gave the signal that there was no contact and then rung him up. Now had he given the no contact signal and/or yelled "No catch" then it would be a different issue. If he's so sure that he didn't catch the ball he should've called no catch instead of punching the batter out.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I said 100%. The Angels have a very valid arguement I have never denied that. Also, for anyone that taped the game I think it would matter what the ump did the whole game to determine his pattern for K's.

 

This was printed earlier in this thread. In addition, BBTN did a video recap of every incident like the one in the bottom of the 9th. He clearly did the same movement for every swinging strike that was not dropped.

 

In regards to rules, there is nothing I can find that says that an umpire has to say a ruling. In regards to the delayed call, here's what MLB tells the umpires under rule 9.05:

 

Do not call the plays too quickly, or turn away too fast when a fielder is throwing to complete a double play. Watch out for dropped balls after you have called a man out. Do not come running with your arm up or down, denoting "out" or "safe." Wait until the play is completed before making any arm motion.

 

Then my question is what does he do to tell the difference between strike 3 and you're out? He put his hand out to say it was not a foul ball but what would he do to say it's a strike but not an out?

 

By the way, this will be a great lesson for my kids!

 

NOT pump his first, which is what he did in 3 examples that I showed in my last post.

[Chris]

ha ha, I love the avatar

[adamb0719]

Is that what the replay said? I saw AJP run while the ump was signaling the out. Also, as I've asked the others....did he really CALL him out?

 

He pulls his arm in and clinches his fist, which is what I always thought was the signal for out.

 

I don't think you can see his lips to be able to tell if he yelled "you're out" unfortunately. I know for a fact that HS umps pump their fist for the 3rd strike but do not yell you're out until the play has been made. It's a habit when a strike is called.

 

But this ump does not, as every other at bat showed. The fist pump means out. If it meant strike three, but your not out then why on dropped balls did he not pump his fist until the play was finished.

 

But did he delay like that? Something was up with the delay.

 

Regardless of the delay he made the signal. Why make it if the play is not done?

 

To say it was a strike.

But that is what he does for outs. There have been plenty of examples showing this. If it was simply a strike and the ball hit the ground, he would have yelled and not made the fist pump. Nothing he did suggests that it was anything other than an out, based on the whole game, and the umps mechanics

[CuseCubFan69]

Orlando Cabrera, Adam Kennedy, and Darin Erstad immediately protest, miming the fist pump that Eddings made. Basically, everyone in earshot who was watching the umpire had a chance to tell Escobar to go pick up the ball, and they didn't, because Eddings behaved in the exact same manner as he had after every strike three had been completed.

 

Eddings third-strike-in-the-dirt MO was clear; pump the fist when the tag is made. As he pumped the fist, Escobar, Cabrera, Kennedy, and Figgins all believed the out was recorded. If he truly believed the ball was in the dirt, he should not have pumped his fist, as his hand to the side motion had already demonstrated that no contact was made on the pitch.

 

Exactly, he should have just gone with the arm movement for the non-foul ball. IMO, he screwed up and used the punchout sign to signal it was the third strike.

[CuseCubFan69]

To say it was a strike.

 

But that is what he does for outs. There have been plenty of examples showing this. If it was simply a strike and the ball hit the ground, he would have yelled and not made the fist pump. Nothing he did suggests that it was anything other than an out, based on the whole game, and the umps mechanics

 

What sign did he use for strike 1 or 2?

[Chris]

The funny thing is that this isn't the first time the players have been confused by his mechanics:

 

It was a ball and Eddings pointed to Williams to go to first. Greinke said he thought Eddings' arm movement was indicating strike, so he started walking toward the dugout. "I actually thought it was a ball; he hadn't given it to me all day," Greinke said. "But he pointed for Bernie to go to first and I thought he called it a strike so I said, 'Nice.'"

 

Eddings charged out from behind the plate to confront Greinke and Royals manager Tony Pena sprinted from the dugout to intercept the ump. "He mentioned something about the quick pitch," Greinke said. "I usually don't do it too many times. I wasn't going to do it again."

[CuseCubFan69]

I said 100%. The Angels have a very valid arguement I have never denied that. Also, for anyone that taped the game I think it would matter what the ump did the whole game to determine his pattern for K's.

 

This was printed earlier in this thread. In addition, BBTN did a video recap of every incident like the one in the bottom of the 9th. He clearly did the same movement for every swinging strike that was not dropped.

 

In regards to rules, there is nothing I can find that says that an umpire has to say a ruling. In regards to the delayed call, here's what MLB tells the umpires under rule 9.05:

 

Do not call the plays too quickly, or turn away too fast when a fielder is throwing to complete a double play. Watch out for dropped balls after you have called a man out. Do not come running with your arm up or down, denoting "out" or "safe." Wait until the play is completed before making any arm motion.

 

Then my question is what does he do to tell the difference between strike 3 and you're out? He put his hand out to say it was not a foul ball but what would he do to say it's a strike but not an out?

 

By the way, this will be a great lesson for my kids!

 

NOT pump his first, which is what he did in 3 examples that I showed in my last post.

 

Since the fist pump says it's an out why did he delay and why did Paul assume it was a K even though he didn't puch AJP out yet? I understand that he thought he caught the ball but the delay means something and the rolling of the ball came too early IMO.

 

The ump blew the call please let me reiterate that once again. I just think assuming something to be may land you in trouble as it did Paul. AJP saw the delay between calls and Paul should have too IMO. I also beleive if there is any doubt make sure you do all you can to eliminate it.

 

edit: I know he is suppose to delay to make sure of the right call. Ironic eh?

Edited October 13, 2005 by CuseCubFan69

[CaliforniaRaisin]

"It was a swing, our catcher caught it, Doug Eddings called him out, and somewhere along the line because the guy ran to first base, he altered the call. He called him out, and that's what's disappointing. When an umpire calls a guy out and you're the catcher -- and I've caught my share of them -- he's out. He didn't call 'swing,' he rang him up with his fist and said, 'You're out.' " - Mike Scioscia

[Chris]

"he rang him up with his fist and said, 'You're out.' " - Mike Scioscia

 

That drastically changes things

[CuseCubFan69]

"It was a swing, our catcher caught it, Doug Eddings called him out, and somewhere along the line because the guy ran to first base, he altered the call. He called him out, and that's what's disappointing. When an umpire calls a guy out and you're the catcher -- and I've caught my share of them -- he's out. He didn't call 'swing,' he rang him up with his fist and said, 'You're out.' " - Mike Scioscia

 

I still haven't heard from Paul yet about the verbal out call.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

"It was a swing, our catcher caught it, Doug Eddings called him out, and somewhere along the line because the guy ran to first base, he altered the call. He called him out, and that's what's disappointing. When an umpire calls a guy out and you're the catcher -- and I've caught my share of them -- he's out. He didn't call 'swing,' he rang him up with his fist and said, 'You're out.' " - Mike Scioscia

 

I still haven't heard from Paul yet about the verbal out call.

 

You're going to have to wait for an interview from him today or tomorrow. For some reason, the reporters never asked him what he heard the Eddings say

[CuseCubFan69]

"he rang him up with his fist and said, 'You're out.' " - Mike Scioscia

 

That drastically changes things

 

If Scioscia actually heard that being yelled by the home plate ump then the umps have a problem.

[frostwyrm]

I can see the rules being changed as a result of this, particularly if the Sox win the series.