Billy Corgan on the Cubs

[JC]

Fundamentals to me seem like a convenient scapegoat when a team isn't woefully bad at a certain spot to blame. I don't think many teams worse than the Cubs are lamenting poor fundamentals, they're ranting about a lack of offense, or pitching, or bullpen. Do the Cubs really make more "fundamental" mistakes than other teams? I'm not sure they do.

 

I don't think anyone is saying the only reason the Cubs are a bad team is because of fundamentals. It's just one of several reasons and they are a bad fundamental team.

 

Are they a bad fundamental team? If Prior and Wood were healthy and effective, putting us in the WC lead, would anyone be talking about how we are a bad fundamental team?

 

Yes, they would. Look no further than 2003.

 

If you recall, Cub pitchers couldn't field a 16" mushball. There were various baserunning errors even before the the Alou debacle of 2004.

 

And, look at 2004. For the most part, the Cubs were in the hunt. But, criticisms rained down on the team for their poor fundamentals, costing the Cubs the best analyst on the market.

 

I think both immediately previous years answer your question.

[goonys evil twin]

Fundamentals to me seem like a convenient scapegoat when a team isn't woefully bad at a certain spot to blame. I don't think many teams worse than the Cubs are lamenting poor fundamentals, they're ranting about a lack of offense, or pitching, or bullpen. Do the Cubs really make more "fundamental" mistakes than other teams? I'm not sure they do.

 

This is my feeling on the matter. I think it's an "after the fact" complaint.

 

Every player on every team makes mistakes. They really only piss people off after a loss, or more accurately, after too many losses. I've seen the saintly Cardinals actually make mistakes, and lose games. And I've seen them make mistakes and win. It happens to everybody. And for some reason, probably at least partially related to baseball's long history of writers who tend to philosophize, mythologize and romanticize, people like to lay blame for the loss on those instances when people don't play the game the right way, as if they are disrespecting the game itself. But they tend to overlook the more important factors that influence win-loss records, maybe because those cold hard facts aren't poetic enough to live up to the legacy of overly sentimental baseball people and their subjective way of reasoning out why teams win and lose.

 

It's not the little things that are holding the Cubs back. It's the big things. The simple, easily quantifiable, blatantly obvious things. Little things never held Boston back. If they could, they wouldn't have won last year. They had an uncoordinated apeman butchering plays in CF, with a clueless bimbo screwing everything up in LF, and not having a clue on the bases. They didn't "clutch up", as their numbers in close and late situations, as well as scoring position 2 outs, were worse than their overall numbers.

 

I'm not advocating sloppy baseball, surely that is an area to be addressed. You want guys to turn crisp double plays and run the bases smartly. However, it still boils down to the one big thing, and that is production. The Cubs just didn't have enough productive hitters or pitchers. And they didn't manage in a way to maximize that production.

 

It really is that simple.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Fundamentals to me seem like a convenient scapegoat when a team isn't woefully bad at a certain spot to blame. I don't think many teams worse than the Cubs are lamenting poor fundamentals, they're ranting about a lack of offense, or pitching, or bullpen. Do the Cubs really make more "fundamental" mistakes than other teams? I'm not sure they do.

 

I don't think anyone is saying the only reason the Cubs are a bad team is because of fundamentals. It's just one of several reasons and they are a bad fundamental team.

 

Are they a bad fundamental team? If Prior and Wood were healthy and effective, putting us in the WC lead, would anyone be talking about how we are a bad fundamental team?

 

Yes, they would. Look no further than 2003.

 

If you recall, Cub pitchers couldn't field a 16" mushball. There were various baserunning errors even before the the Alou debacle of 2004.

 

And, look at 2004. For the most part, the Cubs were in the hunt. But, criticisms rained down on the team for their poor fundamentals, costing the Cubs the best analyst on the market.

 

I think both immediately previous years answer your question.

 

Might be selective memory on my part, but I really don't recall a pining for fundamentals as this year has produced. Last year is kinda what I'm talking about too. Were the problems really fundamentals? Would any of those concerns been there if the team hadn't collapsed? Half the time people have very different definitions of the word, which has already been shown in this thread.

 

I'm not trying to say that the team was devoid of any fundamental mistakes. I'm just saying that they aren't the problem that people make them out to be, partly because everyone has a different idea of what they are, and partly because fundamental mishaps by nature are far easier to remember than fundamental successes. Again I'll question, are the Cubs any worse than any other team fundamentally? I say I don't think they are.

[YearofDaCubs]

He's right on the money.

[JC]

 

I'm not trying to say that the team was devoid of any fundamental mistakes. I'm just saying that they aren't the problem that people make them out to be, partly because everyone has a different idea of what they are, and partly because fundamental mishaps by nature are far easier to remember than fundamental successes. Again I'll question, are the Cubs any worse than any other team fundamentally? I say I don't think they are.

 

Are the Cubs worse fundamentally than other clubs? While my gut says yes, I can't say for sure. I can say that I don't care if other teams suck fundamentally. If there exist correctable situations on the team I root for, they ought to be corrected.

 

Its the pattern of fundamental breakdowns that really galls me. The same mistakes occurring in all too regular fashion. Those kinds of mistakes speak to the coaching staff's ability to address team short comings, or the management's willingness to bring in fundamentally unsound players. Those characteristics, if at all accurate, are troublesome to me.

 

The notion that "everyone is doing it" is not a plausible defense to me.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

I'm not trying to say that the team was devoid of any fundamental mistakes. I'm just saying that they aren't the problem that people make them out to be, partly because everyone has a different idea of what they are, and partly because fundamental mishaps by nature are far easier to remember than fundamental successes. Again I'll question, are the Cubs any worse than any other team fundamentally? I say I don't think they are.

 

Are the Cubs worse fundamentally than other clubs? While my gut says yes, I can't say for sure. I can say that I don't care if other teams suck fundamentally. If there exist correctable situations on the team I root for, they ought to be corrected.

 

Its the pattern of fundamental breakdowns that really galls me. The same mistakes occurring in all too regular fashion. Those kinds of mistakes speak to the coaching staff's ability to address team short comings, or the management's willingness to bring in fundamentally unsound players. Those characteristics, if at all accurate, are troublesome to me.

 

The notion that "everyone is doing it" is not a plausible defense to me.

 

I think that goes back to what Goony was saying. Everyone screws up. Sometimes it costs them games, and at the end of the year if you're on the short end of the stick then it sticks out even more.

 

EDIT: Everything is correctable. But people are human, and what I'm trying to say is that the Cubs aren't any worse than anyone else in that aspect, so therefore there may not be a lot that can be done about it, or it's not worth putting too much effort correcting it since it's not putting us at a disadvantage.

[bobbyd20]

Face it, over the years the Cubs have made numerous mental mistakes that would have gotten a player benched while in little league. Management has looked away and ignored these fundamental flaws for too long. They continued to reward these type of players because they were exciting and helped bring people through the turnstyles.

 

Dusty Baker was brought in prior to the 2003 season to change the organization from lovable losers to perennial contenders. Unfortunately the poor fundamental play has continued (if not gotten worse) under Dusty. He seldom calls out players for boneheaded plays and since the players see no repercussions from these plays, they have little incentive to work harder on the little things.

 

Maybe if Dusty would pull Corey Patterson after the 100th or 101st time that he swings at the first pitch when it's at his eyes, Corey might learn something. Maybe not, but if the manager starts holding players accountable and they still don't learn it's not the manager's fault. Until the manager holds players accountable for poor execution, I lay the blame at the feet of the manager.

[sonofsamiam]

Goony is right on here. It's very easy to blame something somewhat unquantifiable like fundamentals when there are many quantifiable things that are less interesting to point out.

 

Plus, Corgan completely loses me with this statement:

 

the cubs need a legitimate, everyday player, a butt-kickin' winner like jeff kent or craig biggio ... somebody who is going to get in a teammates' face when they try to pull an 0-2 pitch for the 200th time in the season and tell them how to play baseball ... somebody that has the support of most of the clubhouse ... somebody with a big, diamond-covered, world series ring on their finger ...

 

Yep, that Jeff Kent, a man with great support in the clubhouse, and moreover, "a butt-kickin' winner".

 

Corgan's been listening to too much sports radio.

[JC]

 

I'm not trying to say that the team was devoid of any fundamental mistakes. I'm just saying that they aren't the problem that people make them out to be, partly because everyone has a different idea of what they are, and partly because fundamental mishaps by nature are far easier to remember than fundamental successes. Again I'll question, are the Cubs any worse than any other team fundamentally? I say I don't think they are.

 

Are the Cubs worse fundamentally than other clubs? While my gut says yes, I can't say for sure. I can say that I don't care if other teams suck fundamentally. If there exist correctable situations on the team I root for, they ought to be corrected.

 

Its the pattern of fundamental breakdowns that really galls me. The same mistakes occurring in all too regular fashion. Those kinds of mistakes speak to the coaching staff's ability to address team short comings, or the management's willingness to bring in fundamentally unsound players. Those characteristics, if at all accurate, are troublesome to me.

 

The notion that "everyone is doing it" is not a plausible defense to me.

 

I think that goes back to what Goony was saying. Everyone screws up. Sometimes it costs them games, and at the end of the year if you're on the short end of the stick then it sticks out even more.

 

EDIT: Everything is correctable. But people are human, and what I'm trying to say is that the Cubs aren't any worse than anyone else in that aspect, so therefore there may not be a lot that can be done about it, or it's not worth putting too much effort correcting it since it's not putting us at a disadvantage.

 

This assumes that all fundamental mistakes are equal, which I don't believe. When a pattern exists that is not addressed (pitchers not covering first, pitchers not fielding the ball, Alou getting doubled off 30 million times, swinging at the first pitch after 2 straight walks, etc.), that is a bigger problem than Manny Ramirez sliding to catch a ball and getting his cleats stuck.

 

Yes, all mistakes are correctable. But, allowing certain mistakes to continue to be made speaks to a larger problem. At that point, fundamental mistakes become a targetable team weakness of which opposing teams may take advantage.

[gus_dog]

This assumes that all fundamental mistakes are equal, which I don't believe. When a pattern exists that is not addressed (pitchers not covering first, pitchers not fielding the ball, Alou getting doubled off 30 million times, swinging at the first pitch after 2 straight walks, etc.), that is a bigger problem than Manny Ramirez sliding to catch a ball and getting his cleats stuck.

 

Yes, all mistakes are correctable. But, allowing certain mistakes to continue to be made speaks to a larger problem. At that point, fundamental mistakes become a targetable team weakness of which opposing teams may take advantage.

 

For example, the book on the Cubs is to run on them, and run some more. They are more likely to throw to the wrong base than to throw you out.

 

The book on their hitters is to not throw a strike on the first pitch, because they're likely going to swing at it no matter where it is.

 

These kinds of things?

[goonys evil twin]

Goony is right on here. It's very easy to blame something somewhat unquantifiable like fundamentals when there are many quantifiable things that are less interesting to point out.

 

Plus, Corgan completely loses me with this statement:

 

the cubs need a legitimate, everyday player, a butt-kickin' winner like jeff kent or craig biggio ... somebody who is going to get in a teammates' face when they try to pull an 0-2 pitch for the 200th time in the season and tell them how to play baseball ... somebody that has the support of most of the clubhouse ... somebody with a big, diamond-covered, world series ring on their finger ...

 

Yep, that Jeff Kent, a man with great support in the clubhouse, and moreover, "a butt-kickin' winner".

 

Corgan's been listening to too much sports radio.

 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but neither Kent nor Biggio has a "big, diamond-covered, world series ring on their finger". Again, it's just another example of somebody making things more complicated. The Cubs don't need butt-kickers who yell at their teammates for trying to pull an 0-2 pitch. They need productive hitters and good pitchers.

[goonys evil twin]

This assumes that all fundamental mistakes are equal, which I don't believe. When a pattern exists that is not addressed (pitchers not covering first, pitchers not fielding the ball, Alou getting doubled off 30 million times, swinging at the first pitch after 2 straight walks, etc.), that is a bigger problem than Manny Ramirez sliding to catch a ball and getting his cleats stuck.

 

Yes, all mistakes are correctable. But, allowing certain mistakes to continue to be made speaks to a larger problem. At that point, fundamental mistakes become a targetable team weakness of which opposing teams may take advantage.

 

Manny Ramirez's bimbosity has been repeated over and over.

[JC]

 

Manny Ramirez's bimbosity has been repeated over and over.

 

Sure, but Manny plays in a short LF that reduces some of his OF issues regarding range. Further, Manny has the luxury of having a bat that compensates for a large number of his, shall we say, misfortunate decisions and/or misapplication of talent. I don't know that its an employable strategy to say, "Hit it to Manny," as opposed to, "Lay down a bunt," or "Don't throw a first pitch strike."

[sonofsamiam]

Goony is right on here. It's very easy to blame something somewhat unquantifiable like fundamentals when there are many quantifiable things that are less interesting to point out.

 

Plus, Corgan completely loses me with this statement:

 

the cubs need a legitimate, everyday player, a butt-kickin' winner like jeff kent or craig biggio ... somebody who is going to get in a teammates' face when they try to pull an 0-2 pitch for the 200th time in the season and tell them how to play baseball ... somebody that has the support of most of the clubhouse ... somebody with a big, diamond-covered, world series ring on their finger ...

 

Yep, that Jeff Kent, a man with great support in the clubhouse, and moreover, "a butt-kickin' winner".

 

Corgan's been listening to too much sports radio.

 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but neither Kent nor Biggio has a "big, diamond-covered, world series ring on their finger". Again, it's just another example of somebody making things more complicated. The Cubs don't need butt-kickers who yell at their teammates for trying to pull an 0-2 pitch. They need productive hitters and good pitchers.

 

Right. Plus, Kent is pretty much disliked in the clubhouse. I'd take his bat, mind.

 

Corgan's take on Murton, and leadoff hitters, is also terribly aggravating:

 

I would just like to nominate Matt Murton for the position of leadoff hitter for the Cubs in 2006. He makes good contact, is faster than average, gets on base a lot, what more do you need? Sure, he isn't "prototypical," but who cares? If he can get the job done, and I have a feeling he can, why not? -- Nigel Armstrong, Dryden, Ontario

 

praying for a lead-off hitter, a true, blue, real lead-off hitter does not make one appear ... remember kenny lofton, the center fielder who coalesced the 2003 cubs into true contenders ... he is a real lead-off hitter ... david eckstein gets on base if he has to crawl ... it takes a certain type of player, and there is a reason you need them ... matt murton is not going to be that guy over the course of a 162 game season ... and for a leftfielder, especially in wrigley, I think you would want more home runs in the bat ...

 

Suddenly, he's channeling Dusty. Not that I necessarily think Murton is the answer at leadoff, but these are just not good reasons. Plus, his power seems to be just fine of late.

[Derwood]

You hear similar arguments in basketball when you talk about "Players" vs. "Athletes". Some organizations always draft the best athletes and hope they can make players out of them. Some draft more complete players, though they may not be the quickest, strongest, or tallest in the league.

 

It's things like the pitcher not covering first on a grounder to the right side, baserunning gaffes, missing the cutoff man, etc. that are really upsetting. This should be taught from rookie ball up, and should be practiced in spring training. No excuses.

[goonys evil twin]

It's things like the pitcher not covering first on a grounder to the right side, baserunning gaffes, missing the cutoff man, etc. that are really upsetting.

 

I don't know about the rest of you, but the things that are really upsetting to me are:

 

Top 5 payroll, bottom half of the league results.

1908 - the drought, not the moderator.

The lack of attention to the lack of walks taken by hitters and excess of walks given by pitchers - by far, the two biggest reasons for lack of team success.

74-77.

[JC]

It's things like the pitcher not covering first on a grounder to the right side, baserunning gaffes, missing the cutoff man, etc. that are really upsetting.

 

I don't know about the rest of you, but the things that are really upsetting to me are:

 

Top 5 payroll, bottom half of the league results.

1908 - the drought, not the moderator.

The lack of attention to the lack of walks taken by hitters and excess of walks given by pitchers - by far, the two biggest reasons for lack of team success.

74-77.

 

I was going to make some stupid Mets joke, but realized something:

Are the Cubs and Mets somewhat parallel organizations right now? Vastly underperforming in light of their payrolls? Treading water, switching visions midstream?

 

It sort of feels that way.

[Derwood]

It's things like the pitcher not covering first on a grounder to the right side, baserunning gaffes, missing the cutoff man, etc. that are really upsetting.

 

I don't know about the rest of you, but the things that are really upsetting to me are:

 

Top 5 payroll, bottom half of the league results.

1908 - the drought, not the moderator.

The lack of attention to the lack of walks taken by hitters and excess of walks given by pitchers - by far, the two biggest reasons for lack of team success.

74-77.

 

Don't forget:

 

could finish behind the brewers

could finish behind the expos/nationals

will finish behind the white sox

[Satch80]

Failing to cover first, to execute rundowns, to get bunts down, to run bases properly, to hit the cut off man., to block balls in the dirt, .to throw to the right bases....all failure in fundamentals.

 

Swinging for the fences with two strikes, 3 batters making 1 pitch outs,

swinging at the first pitch when the pitcher has walked the last two batters...all examples of thoughtless baseball.

 

Yes, the Cub hitters need to walk more and their pitchers need to walk less but as long as at least some of the above is not corrected, at least in frequency of occurance, the Cubs will not play winning baseball.

 

Players need to be held accountable for lack of focus, lapses and thoughtless/selfish baseball by placing their butts on the bench for a game or two to clear their head.

Of course players on other teams make mistakes. I get MLB Extra Innings and watch a ton of baseball. I see them. But I certainly don't see it on winning teams to the extent we see this on the Cubs day after day. No way.

[CuseCubFan69]

My opinion is that teams that have less talent need to be better at other areas of the game which the Cubs are not. Since the Cubs are not that talented, the mistakes are magnified.