Gold Glove CF

[MembersOnlyJacket]

Joe Buck and Al Hrabosky were discussing who should be the Gold Glove CF in the NL this season. This got started after Buck stated that Chipper Jones believes Andruw should win it this season without any question. Buck said no way and that Edmonds should win the award because of how he plays the wall along with his arm strength and accuracy. Hrabosky chimed in saying that Edmonds makes a lot of great plays.

 

For starters, Andruw plays 81 of his games in a ballpark that from gap to gap is anywhere from 10-20 feet deeper than Busch Stadium. Andruw Jones is second in the NL in assists from CF with 8. Edmonds has 5. You can certainly argue that people don't run on Edmonds because he has a good arm. In fact, while Edmonds has a very accurate arm from short-CF and the gaps. Andruw has a much stronger arm on deep throws. However, I don't think there is any grounds to say that either guy has a better, or more accurate arm than the other. Going back on balls in CF, I think the case could be made that Edmonds is better. Given the fact that he plays so shallow, this is often highlighted with all the catches he is forced to make going back over his head whereas the typical CF catches the ball standing on the track. Andruw, on the other hand, is the best in the league gap-to-gap.

 

If you weigh all the factors, Jones should be the Gold Glove winner in my mind.

[indifferent]

But they can both win (and did last year?), right?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Going by Rate, RAR, and RAA, Edmonds has been significantly better than Jones this year. In previous years they've both been pretty close in those categories.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

But they can both win (and did last year?), right?

 

They've both won for the past five years.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/gold_glove_nl.shtml

 

I think Andruw is slightly a better fielder. Edmonds makes a lot of diving catches, but after all the talk of him purposely slowing down to make those plays, I only count half of those diving catches as real. Just my opinion though as I'm sure they'll both win again this year.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I think the real question is, should Lee win his second over Helton? Or has Maddux been good enough this year to win his 218th gold glove?

 

Lee has to handle Aramis' and Nomar's throws while Maddux is a sinker baller that gets a lot of balls hit right back at him.

[K-Town]

I think the real question is, should Lee win his second over Helton? Or has Maddux been good enough this year to win his 218th gold glove?

 

Lee has to handle Aramis' and Nomar's throws while Maddux is a sinker baller that gets a lot of balls hit right back at him.

 

I'm not so sure that Sean Casey doesn't deserve it this year. The guy only has 2 errors. TWO! That's pretty sporty. And he's slightly ahead of Lee in ZR and RF. Granted, I'm not sold on ZR and RF at all, but I'm not sure of any other way to quantify defensive excellence.

[dalgreen]

I'll be glad when Cardinals fans can see Edmonds as the fraud he is. Average speed+playing shallow center= lots of catches with your back to the infield. He has an accurate arm, but his arm strength to me is distorted because he throws guys out from shallow center as opposed to medium to deep as other outfielders do. His catches outnumber the number of balls that get over his head and I think that's why he's not called out on it. He's a good defensive CF, but in the same breath the most overrated as well. There's a bozo sports-talk host who had the audacity to say that Edmonds is the best defensive CF in Cardinal history. Call it selective memory, I guess. There is no ball that Edmonds has gotten to that Flood nor McGee couldn't. Both of those guys would've caught Perez's ball last night even if they played a shallow CF. Oh yeah, Edmonds never played at Busch when it was 386 to the power alleys and 414 to dead center.

[dalgreen]

I think the real question is, should Lee win his second over Helton? Or has Maddux been good enough this year to win his 218th gold glove?

 

Lee has to handle Aramis' and Nomar's throws while Maddux is a sinker baller that gets a lot of balls hit right back at him.

 

I'm not so sure that Sean Casey doesn't deserve it this year. The guy only has 2 errors. TWO! That's pretty sporty. And he's slightly ahead of Lee in ZR and RF. Granted, I'm not sold on ZR and RF at all, but I'm not sure of any other way to quantify defensive excellence.

 

Unfortunately, the gold glove seems to have become as much an offensive award as defensive award. My bet is that Lee gets it.

[XZero771679666304]

One only needs to look at the leaders in defensive indicator stats at all positions to see that there is no accurate way to satistically quantify defensive ability. ZR, RF, FPCT.....all are very, very flawed. At this point, I think you have to see players consitently and compare them based on judgment rather than crunch numbers to decide who is better. There are just too many variables involved in fielding to rely on stats.

 

As for the topic, Jones>>>Edmonds. Jones' arm is better, and his range is much better, regardless of what RF says. Edmonds can't get to balls that Jones can, pure and simple.

 

The same applies to Lee and Casey. Pujols is better defensively than Casey. Casey may have less errors, but he gets to fewer balls. If there's a ball in the hole that Casey has no shot at, he doesn't get an error. If Lee manages to get a glove on that same ball but can't quite corral it, he gets an error. In that regard, a player with great range is often a victim of that range.

[goonys evil twin]

Joe Buck and Al Hrabosky were discussing who should be the Gold Glove CF in the NL this season. This got started after Buck stated that Chipper Jones believes Andruw should win it this season without any question. Buck said no way and that Edmonds should win the award because of how he plays the wall along with his arm strength and accuracy. Hrabosky chimed in saying that Edmonds makes a lot of great plays.

 

I'm not a big Buck fan on national broadcasts, but he's tolerable. Last night, however, I was reminded just how terrible he is. The other guy actually seemed alright. But Buck is just awful. He's a homer, much like Santo, but unlike Santo, he tries to portray himself as some sort of all knowing god of baseball knowledge. At least Ronny (who I do not like listening to) is brutally honest with his work.

[Chief_Cardinal]

I think it is often forgotten that with Edmonds playing so shallow, he also takes a lot of hits away that the normal CF doesn't get to because of playing more at normal depth. Yes it makes some plays like last night more dramatic, but he still does make the plays. As for the comparison to Andruw....I would take Andruw over Edmonds defensively anyday...but as an overall player, I would take Edmonds (despite what Jones has done this year). Both are awesome defensively and deserve GG each year.

 

As far as the 1B GG...Lee may be more deserving than Helton this year, but don't count out Pujols. To me Pujols is more deserving than Lee this year ( this is going from observation, not stats, range factors, etc.)

[XZero771679666304]

Joe Buck and Al Hrabosky were discussing who should be the Gold Glove CF in the NL this season. This got started after Buck stated that Chipper Jones believes Andruw should win it this season without any question. Buck said no way and that Edmonds should win the award because of how he plays the wall along with his arm strength and accuracy. Hrabosky chimed in saying that Edmonds makes a lot of great plays.

 

I'm not a big Buck fan on national broadcasts, but he's tolerable. Last night, however, I was reminded just how terrible he is. The other guy actually seemed alright. But Buck is just awful. He's a homer, much like Santo, but unlike Santo, he tries to portray himself as some sort of all knowing god of baseball knowledge. At least Ronny (who I do not like listening to) is brutally honest with his work.

 

Last night must have been an aberration. Al Hrabosky is far from alright. His homerism is on par with Hawk's, and his public hatred of the Cubs is unparalled, IMO. But Buck is really homer-ific.

[K-Town]

Joe Buck and Al Hrabosky were discussing who should be the Gold Glove CF in the NL this season. This got started after Buck stated that Chipper Jones believes Andruw should win it this season without any question. Buck said no way and that Edmonds should win the award because of how he plays the wall along with his arm strength and accuracy. Hrabosky chimed in saying that Edmonds makes a lot of great plays.

 

I'm not a big Buck fan on national broadcasts, but he's tolerable. Last night, however, I was reminded just how terrible he is. The other guy actually seemed alright. But Buck is just awful. He's a homer, much like Santo, but unlike Santo, he tries to portray himself as some sort of all knowing god of baseball knowledge. At least Ronny (who I do not like listening to) is brutally honest with his work.

 

You're joking, right? Brutally honest? Here's one little tidbit from Santo (from another thread):

 

"Neifi has had a stellar, stellar season. I haven't seen anyone play a better shortstop. He'll be back next year."

 

Hrabosky is horrible. I can hardly stand to listen to him.

 

Buck is one of the best, easily (heck, the guy has won for Emmy's). He's smooth, unbiased, and informed, whether he's doing football, baseball, whatever.........

[XZero771679666304]

I think it is often forgotten that with Edmonds playing so shallow, he also takes a lot of hits away that the normal CF doesn't get to because of playing more at normal depth. Yes it makes some plays like last night more dramatic, but he still does make the plays. As for the comparison to Andruw....I would take Andruw over Edmonds defensively anyday...but as an overall player, I would take Edmonds (despite what Jones has done this year). Both are awesome defensively and deserve GG each year.

 

As far as the 1B GG...Lee may be more deserving than Helton this year, but don't count out Pujols. To me Pujols is more deserving than Lee this year ( this is going from observation, not stats, range factors, etc.)

 

And because he plays so shallow, Edmonds gets beat on balls over his head more often than most.

 

As for you opinion on 1B, Lee has a several advantages over Albert. First and foremost, his size and reach allow him to catch and pick more poor throws than Pujols (something Lee does better than anybody, IMO.). And from my observation, Lee's reflexes are slightly better. Lee's size (not just height, but his ridiculously long arms) allow him more range, and Lee is quicker (not by much, I'll grant you).

[XZero771679666304]

Joe Buck and Al Hrabosky were discussing who should be the Gold Glove CF in the NL this season. This got started after Buck stated that Chipper Jones believes Andruw should win it this season without any question. Buck said no way and that Edmonds should win the award because of how he plays the wall along with his arm strength and accuracy. Hrabosky chimed in saying that Edmonds makes a lot of great plays.

 

I'm not a big Buck fan on national broadcasts, but he's tolerable. Last night, however, I was reminded just how terrible he is. The other guy actually seemed alright. But Buck is just awful. He's a homer, much like Santo, but unlike Santo, he tries to portray himself as some sort of all knowing god of baseball knowledge. At least Ronny (who I do not like listening to) is brutally honest with his work.

 

You're joking, right? Brutally honest? Here's one little tidbit from Santo (from another thread):

 

"Neifi has had a stellar, stellar season. I haven't seen anyone play a better shortstop. He'll be back next year."

 

Hrabosky is horrible. I can hardly stand to listen to him.

 

Buck is one of the best, easily (heck, the guy has won for Emmy's). He's smooth, unbiased, and informed, whether he's doing football, baseball, whatever.........

 

Buck is smooth and informed, but calling him unbiased is a real stretch. He keeps it in check in his national broadcasts, but a bit slips in here and there.

 

And Santo is honest about what he feels, which is often wrong. I love Ronny, but he is horrible.

[Chief_Cardinal]

You got to expect a little homerism on the team broadcast. Thats only natural. He tries to go out of his way to seem like an anti-homer on the national telecast at points. To me he is a great radio announcer, but that part of the game isn't as important as it once was. He is very good on TV, but not great like he is on radio.

 

I agree with the points on Lee over Pujols. To me a huge difference is the decision making skills of Pujols at first. A bunch of stuff that a normal person is not going to notice that Pujols does that a normal 1B doesn't ( like the way he doesn't throw the ball to a pitcher covering unless he is absolutly sure he can't make it to the bag).

 

Edmonds doesn't get beat on balls over his head very often...and when he does, most likely most CF would of been beat on that ball as well (probably the only exceptions would be Hunter and Jones).

[XZero771679666304]

You got to expect a little homerism on the team broadcast. Thats only natural. He tries to go out of his way to seem like an anti-homer on the national telecast at points. To me he is a great radio announcer, but that part of the game isn't as important as it once was. He is very good on TV, but not great like he is on radio.

 

I agree with the points on Lee over Pujols. To me a huge difference is the decision making skills of Pujols at first. A bunch of stuff that a normal person is not going to notice that Pujols does that a normal 1B doesn't ( like the way he doesn't throw the ball to a pitcher covering unless he is absolutly sure he can't make it to the bag).

 

Edmonds doesn't get beat on balls over his head very often...and when he does, most likely most CF would of been beat on that ball as well (probably the only exceptions would be Hunter and Jones).

 

I've seen Edmonds look pretty bad on balls hit over his head a few times the past few years, and that's just against the Cubs.

[K-Town]

I agree with the points on Lee over Pujols. To me a huge difference is the decision making skills of Pujols at first. A bunch of stuff that a normal person is not going to notice that Pujols does that a normal 1B doesn't ( like the way he doesn't throw the ball to a pitcher covering unless he is absolutly sure he can't make it to the bag).

 

Excellent point, Chief. I don't think there's a player out there with better baseball instincts than Pujols, both in the field and on the bases.

[XZero771679666304]

I agree with the points on Lee over Pujols. To me a huge difference is the decision making skills of Pujols at first. A bunch of stuff that a normal person is not going to notice that Pujols does that a normal 1B doesn't ( like the way he doesn't throw the ball to a pitcher covering unless he is absolutly sure he can't make it to the bag).

 

Excellent point, Chief. I don't think there's a player out there with better baseball instincts than Pujols, both in the field and on the bases.

 

That may be true, but Derrek is no idiot, either. In the past two years, I can count the mental mistakes Lee has made in the field on one hand and still have a couple of fingers left over. And Albert is not perfect. I seem to remember him spacing out and whiffing on a throw in the last Wrigley series. Kind of like when a reciever starts thinking about running before he has actually caught the ball, IMO.

 

Regardless, both are great defenders.

[K-Town]

I agree with the points on Lee over Pujols. To me a huge difference is the decision making skills of Pujols at first. A bunch of stuff that a normal person is not going to notice that Pujols does that a normal 1B doesn't ( like the way he doesn't throw the ball to a pitcher covering unless he is absolutly sure he can't make it to the bag).

 

Excellent point, Chief. I don't think there's a player out there with better baseball instincts than Pujols, both in the field and on the bases.

 

That may be true, but Derrek is no idiot, either. In the past two years, I can count the mental mistakes Lee has made in the field on one hand and still have a couple of fingers left over. And Albert is not perfect. I seem to remember him spacing out and whiffing on a throw in the last Wrigley series. Kind of like when a reciever starts thinking about running before he has actually caught the ball, IMO.

 

Regardless, both are great defenders.

 

Who called Lee an idiot? I'm pretty sure that I posted earlier in this thread that Lee is the better defensive player.

[XZero771679666304]

I agree with the points on Lee over Pujols. To me a huge difference is the decision making skills of Pujols at first. A bunch of stuff that a normal person is not going to notice that Pujols does that a normal 1B doesn't ( like the way he doesn't throw the ball to a pitcher covering unless he is absolutly sure he can't make it to the bag).

 

Excellent point, Chief. I don't think there's a player out there with better baseball instincts than Pujols, both in the field and on the bases.

 

That may be true, but Derrek is no idiot, either. In the past two years, I can count the mental mistakes Lee has made in the field on one hand and still have a couple of fingers left over. And Albert is not perfect. I seem to remember him spacing out and whiffing on a throw in the last Wrigley series. Kind of like when a reciever starts thinking about running before he has actually caught the ball, IMO.

 

Regardless, both are great defenders.

 

Who called Lee an idiot? I'm pretty sure that I posted earlier in this thread that Lee is the better defensive player.

 

No one did, nor did I intend to imply that. Chief was saying Albert had great instincts, and I was trying to say Lee did as well. ("Lee is no idiot, either") I apologize if it came across as beligerant.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I think the real question is, should Lee win his second over Helton? Or has Maddux been good enough this year to win his 218th gold glove?

 

Lee has to handle Aramis' and Nomar's throws while Maddux is a sinker baller that gets a lot of balls hit right back at him.

 

I'm not so sure that Sean Casey doesn't deserve it this year. The guy only has 2 errors. TWO! That's pretty sporty. And he's slightly ahead of Lee in ZR and RF. Granted, I'm not sold on ZR and RF at all, but I'm not sure of any other way to quantify defensive excellence.

 

Going by Rate, RAR, and RAA, Edmonds has been significantly better than Jones this year. In previous years they've both been pretty close in those categories.

 

By those metrics:

 

Rate(100 is average I believe)

Casey 109

Lee 107

Pujols 99

 

RAR

Casey 22

Lee 21

Pujols 11

 

RAA

Casey 11

Lee 9

Pujols -2

 

Casey does seem to be having the better season defensively. Also worth noting, this is the first year in his career that Casey has not been well below average defensively. Both Lee(109 Rate) and Pujols(102) were slightly better last year.

[rocket]

We should probably just do away with the gold glove altogether.

[The Voice of Reason]

Joe Buck and Al Hrabosky were discussing who should be the Gold Glove CF in the NL this season. This got started after Buck stated that Chipper Jones believes Andruw should win it this season without any question. Buck said no way and that Edmonds should win the award because of how he plays the wall along with his arm strength and accuracy. Hrabosky chimed in saying that Edmonds makes a lot of great plays.

 

I'm not a big Buck fan on national broadcasts, but he's tolerable. Last night, however, I was reminded just how terrible he is. The other guy actually seemed alright. But Buck is just awful. He's a homer, much like Santo, but unlike Santo, he tries to portray himself as some sort of all knowing god of baseball knowledge. At least Ronny (who I do not like listening to) is brutally honest with his work.

 

You're joking, right? Brutally honest? Here's one little tidbit from Santo (from another thread):

 

"Neifi has had a stellar, stellar season. I haven't seen anyone play a better shortstop. He'll be back next year."

 

Hrabosky is horrible. I can hardly stand to listen to him.

 

Buck is one of the best, easily (heck, the guy has won for Emmy's). He's smooth, unbiased, and informed, whether he's doing football, baseball, whatever.........[/quote]

 

 

Too often Buck comes off like the spoiled St. Louis County Day Prep Schooler that he is. Daddy was great, he's a medicore know-it-all.

[goonys evil twin]

You're joking, right? Brutally honest? Here's one little tidbit from Santo (from another thread):

 

"Neifi has had a stellar, stellar season. I haven't seen anyone play a better shortstop. He'll be back next year."

 

Hrabosky is horrible. I can hardly stand to listen to him.

 

Buck is one of the best, easily (heck, the guy has won for Emmy's). He's smooth, unbiased, and informed, whether he's doing football, baseball, whatever.........

 

I said Santo was a homer. My point was that he doesn't try to pretend he isn't. I think Santo is a terrible analyst.

 

Buck is not one of the best. Only a STL fan could think so. He's an arrogant preppy popped collar kind of guy. Unbiased? He is so completely biased it's almost obscene.