Patterson on the block?

[goonys evil twin]

Is he better than what we have at the price we're paying it?

 

He is better than what Patterson was this year.

 

Is paying Wilson 5-6m/yr worse than paying Damon 12m for 5 years?

 

I'd rather put Hairston in center at $2m and spend the money on impact bats elsewhere.

[Outshined_One]

Giles in CF...that'd be an adventure. Damon would be a better alternative if you want to straight up get a CF from a production standpoint, although the contract he'll likely get will not be pretty.

 

They need to get another OF in general, via trade or FA. And that makes the job easier. For example...

 

Milton Bradley will be available. Can Dusty calm him down? He's got talent. He would actually be a CF for us, at least until Pie.

 

He's not a bad option from a production standpoint, but Baker and his crew have shown they have absolutely no interest in policing the players. Bradley is not the kind of guy who will back down from a sheriff-type of player (see: Jeff Kent), which is the kind of player the Cubs could use next season. I'd be against it because I could just see him going psycho and making 2004's clubhouse seem like the Pax Romana.

 

Tampa and Cincinnati have too many OF-ers, and both might finally be ready to move one of them in a trade. They know they need pitching, that's one thing we have. Jonny Gomes or Aubrey Huff? Adam Dunn or Austin Kearns or maybe Ryan Freel?

 

As much as I'd love to get one of the above guys (especially Dunn or Gomes), it will really cost the Cubs. We all know TB GM Chuck LaMar's MO by now; the Cubs would likely have to severely overpay for Gomes or Huff. As for the Reds, my gut tells me they're more likely to trade Griffey or Pena than Kearns or Dunn. I could be wrong, I grant you.

 

If that were the case, I don't think the Reds would be big fans of trading one of their best offensive bats in-division to a team that needs one. Kearns can play a decent CF, which is a bonus if you want to trade CPatt. Freel's foot injury has me really worried since the word, "degenerative" has been tossed around in describing it, so no thanks.

 

If the Cubs can get a passable enough price on any of Gomes, Huff, Dunn, or Kearns, they should jump on it. However, I don't see that as being a realistic scenario.

 

Ryan Klesko is the kind of short-term solution Hendry might like, he's a better version of Burnitz. San Diego might be ready to turn over their OF if they lose Giles.

 

He'll turn 35 next season and is being shifted to platoon duty, getting almost all of his ABs against RHP. Do we really want to give Dusty Baker a guy like this?

 

The Mets also have an extra OF. It seems likely they'd stick with Victor Diaz given his youth. But Mike Cameron or Cliff Floyd?

 

Not a fan of the salary the Cubs would have to take on with either player, but neither is a bad option. Floyd's streakiness and injuries bug me, but if the Cubs could get a decent price for him, I'd be for it as long as the Cubs were willing to have some one ready to go to take his place in the OF. If the Cubs get Giles and get rid of Patterson, Cameron would be a good replacement.

 

With Jeremy Hermida finally here, Florida has no room for Juan Encarnacion.

 

His wrist is healing and he's putting up decent numbers. Not a guy I'd make a hard run for, but he'd be an upgrade over Burnitz.

 

Cleveland doesn't have room for Franklin Gutierrez, Coco Crisp, and Grady Sizemore all at once, do they?

 

Actually, they do. Their other OFs are Casey Blake, Jason Dubois, Jeff Liefer, and Juan Gonzalez. As much as I like Dubois, I don't think anyone from that group will cause the Indians to want to trade a fan favorite or one of their two most highly touted young players.

 

That's my analysis. Take it for what you will.

[biittner77]

As much as I'd love to get one of the above guys (especially Dunn or Gomes), it will really cost the Cubs. We all know TB GM Chuck LaMar's MO by now

 

Isn't there a better than average chance that he'll get fired? I thought I read that in the Lou Piniella threads that both he and LaMar were gone at the end of the season. Might be wishful thinking.

[CuseCubFan69]

As much as I'd love to get one of the above guys (especially Dunn or Gomes), it will really cost the Cubs. We all know TB GM Chuck LaMar's MO by now

 

Isn't there a better than average chance that he'll get fired? I thought I read that in the Lou Piniella threads that both he and LaMar were gone at the end of the season. Might be wishful thinking.

 

And the new GM can send Cantu and Upton to the Cubs for Macias and Perez....excellent.

[Outshined_One]

As much as I'd love to get one of the above guys (especially Dunn or Gomes), it will really cost the Cubs. We all know TB GM Chuck LaMar's MO by now

 

Isn't there a better than average chance that he'll get fired? I thought I read that in the Lou Piniella threads that both he and LaMar were gone at the end of the season. Might be wishful thinking.

 

Given that the D-Rays plan on keeping Upton and Young down in AAA to start next season as not to start their option clocks, I wouldn't be surprised if their management decides to keep LaMar. They're a penny-pinching organization and everyone knows it. I wouldn't be surprised if LaMar's demands for Huff & Baez were applauded by the front office...

 

And heck, replacing him could be dangerous for other teams in baseball looking to acquire various players from the D-Rays. They could end up with some one even worse than LaMar, who could ask for Prior AND Zambrano in exchange for Huff and Baez. Or, worse, they might actually find some one competent and shrewd enough to rip other teams off without them knowing it until a few years down the line.

[brfahey]

I may be as guilty of it as others, but why is there even any discussion regarding if Patterson should be retained? Many posters can't seem to help but rip Perez who has been far more productive offensively than Patterson and is a good defensive player but we still don't know if patterson should come back. News flash, this is who he is a player. The first half of 2003 was 2 years ago. Patterson's head is permanently planted, for baseball purposes, up his rear end.

 

If hendry can get anything for him, fine. if not, non-tender him and say bye. I think we will be able to replace those 30 RBIs somehow.

[goonys evil twin]

Perez who has been far more productive offensively than Patterson and is a good defensive player but we still don't know if patterson should come back. News flash, this is who he is a player.

 

Neifi is 32, he's had almost 5000 PA, and he's always sucked.

 

Corey is 26, has had less than 2500 PA, and has not always sucked.

 

He's been terrible this year. But the fact is players usually do improve throughout their 20's. Neifi is a lost cause with no upside. However small the likelihood is for Corey, at least he has some chance to be a decent starter.

[brfahey]

Perez who has been far more productive offensively than Patterson and is a good defensive player but we still don't know if patterson should come back. News flash, this is who he is a player.

 

Neifi is 32, he's had almost 5000 PA, and he's always sucked.

 

Corey is 26, has had less than 2500 PA, and has not always sucked.

 

He's been terrible this year. But the fact is players usually do improve throughout their 20's. Neifi is a lost cause with no upside. However small the likelihood is for Corey, at least he has some chance to be a decent starter.

 

Neifi's always sucked? What is it about him that drives you guys crazy?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Perez who has been far more productive offensively than Patterson and is a good defensive player but we still don't know if patterson should come back. News flash, this is who he is a player.

 

Neifi is 32, he's had almost 5000 PA, and he's always sucked.

 

Corey is 26, has had less than 2500 PA, and has not always sucked.

 

He's been terrible this year. But the fact is players usually do improve throughout their 20's. Neifi is a lost cause with no upside. However small the likelihood is for Corey, at least he has some chance to be a decent starter.

 

Neifi's always sucked? What is it about him that drives you guys crazy?

 

The fact that he's one of the worst hitters of his era? What is there to like about his performance over his career?

[brfahey]

Perez who has been far more productive offensively than Patterson and is a good defensive player but we still don't know if patterson should come back. News flash, this is who he is a player.

 

Neifi is 32, he's had almost 5000 PA, and he's always sucked.

 

Corey is 26, has had less than 2500 PA, and has not always sucked.

 

He's been terrible this year. But the fact is players usually do improve throughout their 20's. Neifi is a lost cause with no upside. However small the likelihood is for Corey, at least he has some chance to be a decent starter.

 

Neifi's always sucked? What is it about him that drives you guys crazy?

 

The fact that he's one of the worst hitters of his era? What is there to like about his performance over his career?

 

Please, withoiut nerding it up too much with VORP etc, tell me how Neifi is one of the worst hitters of his era? How does he have 5000 abs if he sucks so bad. I like his chances to get 7500 abs better than Corey's to get 5000.

[goonys evil twin]

Neifi's always sucked? What is it about him that drives you guys crazy?

 

Reality is what drives me crazy. All the Santos in the world can't keep spreading the lie that he's been great.

 

He sucks. The numbers back it up. He's always sucked.

[brfahey]

Neifi's always sucked? What is it about him that drives you guys crazy?

 

Reality is what drives me crazy. All the Santos in the world can't keep spreading the lie that he's been great.

 

He sucks. The numbers back it up. He's always sucked.

 

Does he suck more than Patterson? Do the numbers back that up?

[goonys evil twin]

Please, withoiut nerding it up too much with VORP etc, tell me how Neifi is one of the worst hitters of his era? How does he have 5000 abs if he sucks so bad. I like his chances to get 7500 abs better than Corey's to get 5000.

 

Nerding it up? Gotta love that tough guy "stats don't matter" attitude.

 

Neifi has had 5000 PA because a lot of people in baseball purposefully avoid objective analysis. It's called conventional wisdom, and it's why so many franchises repeatedly fail.

 

How can you support Neifi so much when his career numbers are no better than Corey's? And that comes with playing half of his career in Colorado.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Perez who has been far more productive offensively than Patterson and is a good defensive player but we still don't know if patterson should come back. News flash, this is who he is a player.

 

Neifi is 32, he's had almost 5000 PA, and he's always sucked.

 

Corey is 26, has had less than 2500 PA, and has not always sucked.

 

He's been terrible this year. But the fact is players usually do improve throughout their 20's. Neifi is a lost cause with no upside. However small the likelihood is for Corey, at least he has some chance to be a decent starter.

 

Neifi's always sucked? What is it about him that drives you guys crazy?

 

The fact that he's one of the worst hitters of his era? What is there to like about his performance over his career?

 

Please, withoiut nerding it up too much with VORP etc, tell me how Neifi is one of the worst hitters of his era? How does he have 5000 abs if he sucks so bad. I like his chances to get 7500 abs better than Corey's to get 5000.

 

Okay, I won't "nerd it up" with more accurate metrics. Neifi's career OBP is .301, and a third of his career ABs have been at Coors field. His career numbers away from home(his home parks have been primarily Coors and Kaufmann, the two biggest hitters parks): .246/.281/.335/.617. Humiliatingly awful.

Edited September 9, 2005 by Transmogrified Tiger

[brfahey]

Please, withoiut nerding it up too much with VORP etc, tell me how Neifi is one of the worst hitters of his era? How does he have 5000 abs if he sucks so bad. I like his chances to get 7500 abs better than Corey's to get 5000.

 

Nerding it up? Gotta love that tough guy "stats don't matter" attitude.

 

Neifi has had 5000 PA because a lot of people in baseball purposefully avoid objective analysis. It's called conventional wisdom, and it's why so many franchises repeatedly fail.

 

How can you support Neifi so much when his career numbers are no better than Corey's? And that comes with playing half of his career in Colorado.

 

Stats are something, not everything.

 

I am not supporting Neifi per se. I am pointing out the selectivity of some who bash him but defend Patterson.

 

PS: I here Gary Scott's still got a chance to make it. I think we gave up on him too early.

[brfahey]

Perez who has been far more productive offensively than Patterson and is a good defensive player but we still don't know if patterson should come back. News flash, this is who he is a player.

 

Neifi is 32, he's had almost 5000 PA, and he's always sucked.

 

Corey is 26, has had less than 2500 PA, and has not always sucked.

 

He's been terrible this year. But the fact is players usually do improve throughout their 20's. Neifi is a lost cause with no upside. However small the likelihood is for Corey, at least he has some chance to be a decent starter.

 

Neifi's always sucked? What is it about him that drives you guys crazy?

 

The fact that he's one of the worst hitters of his era? What is there to like about his performance over his career?

 

Please, withoiut nerding it up too much with VORP etc, tell me how Neifi is one of the worst hitters of his era? How does he have 5000 abs if he sucks so bad. I like his chances to get 7500 abs better than Corey's to get 5000.

 

Okay, I won't "nerd it up" with more accurate metrics. Neifi's career OBP is .301, and a third of his career ABs have been at Coors field. His career numbers away from home in his career(his home parks have been primarily Coors and Kaufmann, the two biggest hitters parks): .246/.281/.335/.617. Humiliatingly awful.

 

To you. If baseball could be completely explained by stats, why isn't it. Why do the Cubs play the Cards well and stink it up against the Reds? Why can't the Yankees beat the Devil rays. All of the stats in the world do not and will not ever completely explaing the game so stop pretending like they can.

[goonys evil twin]

Neifi's always sucked? What is it about him that drives you guys crazy?

 

Reality is what drives me crazy. All the Santos in the world can't keep spreading the lie that he's been great.

 

He sucks. The numbers back it up. He's always sucked.

 

Does he suck more than Patterson? Do the numbers back that up?

 

This year Corey sucked more. For their careers they are very similar.

 

Neifi is right now what Corey would be if he never improved for 6 years but kept getting chances to play a lot. Corey may never improve. I certainly won't guarantee it. But there is a chance. With Neifi, we know he sucks and he'll always suck.

[brfahey]

Neifi's always sucked? What is it about him that drives you guys crazy?

 

Reality is what drives me crazy. All the Santos in the world can't keep spreading the lie that he's been great.

 

He sucks. The numbers back it up. He's always sucked.

 

Does he suck more than Patterson? Do the numbers back that up?

 

This year Corey sucked more. For their careers they are very similar.

 

Neifi is right now what Corey would be if he never improved for 6 years but kept getting chances to play a lot. Corey may never improve. I certainly won't guarantee it. But there is a chance. With Neifi, we know he sucks and he'll always suck.

 

At least you're not unreasonable. I still think there are people who do not want to admit that Patterson has sucked this year while ripping others in the same breath.

[brfahey]

Neifi's always sucked? What is it about him that drives you guys crazy?

 

Reality is what drives me crazy. All the Santos in the world can't keep spreading the lie that he's been great.

 

He sucks. The numbers back it up. He's always sucked.

 

Does he suck more than Patterson? Do the numbers back that up?

 

This year Corey sucked more. For their careers they are very similar.

 

Neifi is right now what Corey would be if he never improved for 6 years but kept getting chances to play a lot. Corey may never improve. I certainly won't guarantee it. But there is a chance. With Neifi, we know he sucks and he'll always suck.

 

At least you're not unreasonable. I still think there are people who do not want to admit that Patterson has sucked this year while ripping others in the same breath.

[goonys evil twin]

I still think there are people who do not want to admit that Patterson has sucked this year

 

There may be.

 

But I sure don't know any of them.

[brfahey]

I still think there are people who do not want to admit that Patterson has sucked this year

 

There may be.

 

But I sure don't know any of them.

 

Fair enough. perhaps I phrased inartfully. I think people have spent alot of time on this board ripping perez. While there has been ripping of patterson the perez bashing is out of proportion relative to the patterson bashing to their performances this year.

[1908]

To you. If baseball could be completely explained by stats, why isn't it. Why do the Cubs play the Cards well and stink it up against the Reds? Why can't the Yankees beat the Devil rays. All of the stats in the world do not and will not ever completely explaing the game so stop pretending like they can.

What's your preferred method for explaining the game?

[brfahey]

To you. If baseball could be completely explained by stats, why isn't it. Why do the Cubs play the Cards well and stink it up against the Reds? Why can't the Yankees beat the Devil rays. All of the stats in the world do not and will not ever completely explaing the game so stop pretending like they can.

What's your prefered method for explainging the game?

 

There's no way to fully explain the game, that's just the point. if the game could be objectively explained fully why hasn't it been in the 150 years people have been playing it. Does the team with the best stats win very year? Only if you are correct and cite the only stat that matters: wins and losses. Stats can be helpful to try to predict how things will go. But can you explain with stats the dread I feel facing the reds lineup while i really don't fear the cards and haven't for a couple of years. Intangibles exist. If you think you can explain this game fully you've got some ego on you.

[goonys evil twin]

I still think there are people who do not want to admit that Patterson has sucked this year

 

There may be.

 

But I sure don't know any of them.

 

Fair enough. perhaps I phrased inartfully. I think people have spent alot of time on this board ripping perez. While there has been ripping of patterson the perez bashing is out of proportion relative to the patterson bashing to their performances this year.

 

I'm not sure there has ever been a topic discussed on this board to a level in proportion to the level that topic deserved. Some talks escalate, they stir emotions. If somebody says Neifi sucks, and the replies are pretty much in agreement, the discussion isn't going to go anywhere. If a person decides to reply in defense of Neifi, however, the debate is much more likely to rage. I personally rip Neifi more than Corey for a couple reasons: A) I expected Neifi to suck and I hate being proven right on something that hurts the Cubs; B) I can't stand all the over-the-top praise Neifi has gotten from media/announcers/coaches; C) However slim it may be, there's still some hope for Corey to do something positive, whereas Neifi is hopeless.

[brfahey]

I still think there are people who do not want to admit that Patterson has sucked this year

 

There may be.

 

But I sure don't know any of them.

 

Fair enough. perhaps I phrased inartfully. I think people have spent alot of time on this board ripping perez. While there has been ripping of patterson the perez bashing is out of proportion relative to the patterson bashing to their performances this year.

 

I'm not sure there has ever been a topic discussed on this board to a level in proportion to the level that topic deserved. Some talks escalate, they stir emotions. If somebody says Neifi sucks, and the replies are pretty much in agreement, the discussion isn't going to go anywhere. If a person decides to reply in defense of Neifi, however, the debate is much more likely to rage. I personally rip Neifi more than Corey for a couple reasons: A) I expected Neifi to suck and I hate being proven right on something that hurts the Cubs; B) I can't stand all the over-the-top praise Neifi has gotten from media/announcers/coaches; C) However slim it may be, there's still some hope for Corey to do something positive, whereas Neifi is hopeless.

 

Again, far enough and well explained. I think you are hoping with your heart on ©.