Clemens,Carpenter, or Willis for Cy Young? (edit)

[K-Town]

I agree. It's probably not a bad idea to coddle Clemens. He needs it, because he's not very durable. Funny you should mention a "fresh Izzy". I'm sure that the other 4 starters in the Cardinal rotation are thrilled to have a "fresh Izzy" ready to go for them, because Carpenter didn't need him to finish what HE started.

 

No Roger is not durable at all. The dude just breaksdown all the time. Who brokedown last year and wasnt available for the playoffs? In Clemens career of 21 full years he has pitched in 29 games 17 of those years, 2 of those were his first two years. The dude is just not durable.

 

Yep, 21 years in the major leagues. Definitely not durable. :roll:

 

Again, let's keep things in context.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

We are, you have absolutely no proof to back up your claim that Carp is more durable than Clemens other than Clemens pulled himself out of a game after 8 scoreless innings. Edited August 16, 2005 by BleedCubbieBlue81

[K-Town]

Look, Clemens has been TERRIFIC. I've already said that I can see the argument for him to win the Cy Young Award.

 

Who knows, Carpenter may wear down and end up with an ERA of 4, and all of this will be a moot point.

 

I know for sure that everybody realizes what a great year Clemens is having. I just HOPE that alot of people realize what an unbelievable year Carpenter is having (the year for a NL starting pitcher in 6 or 8 years).

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Look, Clemens has been TERRIFIC. I've already said that I can see the argument for him to win the Cy Young Award.

 

Who knows, Carpenter may wear down and end up with an ERA of 4, and all of this will be a moot point.

 

I know for sure that everybody realizes what a great year Clemens is having. I just HOPE that alot of people realize what an unbelievable year Carpenter is having (the year for a NL starting pitcher in 6 or 8 years).

 

No one here has ever argued that. We've just been stating that for as good as Carp's year has been, it's not as good as Clemens.

[K-Town]

We are, you have absolutely no proof to back up your claim that Carp is more durable than Clemens on than Clemens pulled himself out of a game after 8 scoreless innings.

 

I have proof that he did last Saturday, in a tight game, with his team in a heated playoff race.

 

Other than that, youre right, I don't have "proof". Do you have any "proof" that Clemens hasn't taken steroids? Because Canseco speculated that he probably has, and Canseco is turning out to be a pretty dependable source.

 

*That should ruffle some feathers here!!* :lol: :wink:

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

We are, you have absolutely no proof to back up your claim that Carp is more durable than Clemens on than Clemens pulled himself out of a game after 8 scoreless innings.

 

I have proof that he did last Saturday, in a tight game, with his team in a heated playoff race.

 

Other than that, youre right, I don't have "proof". Do you have any "proof" that Clemens hasn't taken steroids? Because Canseco speculated that he probably has, and Canseco is turning out to be a pretty dependable source.

 

*That should ruffle some feathers here!!* :lol: :wink:

 

Haha, 8 SCORELESS INNINGS! With Brad Lidge in the bullpen, 8 scoreless innings is usually enough. He did his job, and he was smart enough to know that his season and health was more important than a complete game.

 

And the steroids thing won't get anythin going here. Pitchers taking steroids is just dumb. His arm would've fallen off 15 years ago if he was on roids.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

And if you want to ruffle feathers, do you have any proof that Albert Pujols is really the age he says he is? :lol:

 

And on that note, I'm off to lunch.

Edited August 16, 2005 by BleedCubbieBlue81

[cubweiser03]

Look, Clemens has been TERRIFIC. I've already said that I can see the argument for him to win the Cy Young Award.

 

Who knows, Carpenter may wear down and end up with an ERA of 4, and all of this will be a moot point.

 

I know for sure that everybody realizes what a great year Clemens is having. I just HOPE that alot of people realize what an unbelievable year Carpenter is having (the year for a NL starting pitcher in 6 or 8 years).

 

Dude Carps year is great. Hes just in the wrong league this year to win the Cy Young.

[K-Town]

We are, you have absolutely no proof to back up your claim that Carp is more durable than Clemens on than Clemens pulled himself out of a game after 8 scoreless innings.

 

I have proof that he did last Saturday, in a tight game, with his team in a heated playoff race.

 

Other than that, youre right, I don't have "proof". Do you have any "proof" that Clemens hasn't taken steroids? Because Canseco speculated that he probably has, and Canseco is turning out to be a pretty dependable source.

 

*That should ruffle some feathers here!!* :lol: :wink:

 

Haha, 8 SCORELESS INNINGS! With Brad Lidge in the bullpen, 8 scoreless innings is usually enough. He did his job, and he was smart enough to know that his season and health was more important than a complete game.

 

And the steroids thing won't get anythin going here. Pitchers taking steroids is just dumb. His arm would've fallen off 15 years ago if he was on roids.

 

Really? What if he wasn't taking them 15 years ago? Would his arm have been able to predict that steroids were coming, and fallen off out of fear?

 

You're right. 8 scoreless innings is usually enough. Now if we could just get MLB to allow Houston to play nothing but 7-inning games, Clemens would be all set.

[K-Town]

Look, Clemens has been TERRIFIC. I've already said that I can see the argument for him to win the Cy Young Award.

 

Who knows, Carpenter may wear down and end up with an ERA of 4, and all of this will be a moot point.

 

I know for sure that everybody realizes what a great year Clemens is having. I just HOPE that alot of people realize what an unbelievable year Carpenter is having (the year for a NL starting pitcher in 6 or 8 years).

 

Dude Carps year is great. Hes just in the wrong league this year to win the Cy Young.

 

I hope you're wrong, but that's a very fair statement. Thanks.

[K-Town]

And if you want to ruffle feathers, do you have any proof that Albert Pujols is really the age he says he is? :lol:

 

And on that note, I'm off to lunch.

 

Canseco (or anybody else) hasn't said anything about Pujols.

 

But no, I don't have proof.

 

You're the one that brought up the "proof" thing, not me. So don't act like I'm the one being ridiculous.

[indifferent]

Look, Clemens has been TERRIFIC. I've already said that I can see the argument for him to win the Cy Young Award.

 

Who knows, Carpenter may wear down and end up with an ERA of 4, and all of this will be a moot point.

 

I know for sure that everybody realizes what a great year Clemens is having. I just HOPE that alot of people realize what an unbelievable year Carpenter is having (the year for a NL starting pitcher in 6 or 8 years).

 

Dude Carps year is great. Hes just in the wrong league this year to win the Cy Young.

 

I think herein lies the problem. Carp this year and Pujols the last two/three years are finishing second. Any other year or any other league, less Bonds, Lee, and Clemens, either of them could take home the award. I'm not saying it's not legitimate, I just think Cards fans are sick of their guys finishing second.

 

Edit - and their team :(

[K-Town]

Look, Clemens has been TERRIFIC. I've already said that I can see the argument for him to win the Cy Young Award.

 

Who knows, Carpenter may wear down and end up with an ERA of 4, and all of this will be a moot point.

 

I know for sure that everybody realizes what a great year Clemens is having. I just HOPE that alot of people realize what an unbelievable year Carpenter is having (the year for a NL starting pitcher in 6 or 8 years).

 

Dude Carps year is great. Hes just in the wrong league this year to win the Cy Young.

 

I think herein lies the problem. Carp this year and Pujols the last two/three years are finishing second. Any other year or any other league, less Bonds, Lee, and Clemens, either of them could take home the award. I'm not saying it's not legitimate, I just think Cards fans are sick of their guys finishing second.

 

Edit - and their team :(

 

That's probably about as accurate as anything that's been posted in this thread.

 

Good post, indifferent.

[gus_dog]

This just in: MLB announced today that they have changed the name of the NL Cy Young award to the 'Pitcher with the most complete games award'. In advance of the end of the season, they've decided to give the award to Chris Carpenter. It will be presented to Carpenter in K-Town.

 

:wink: :lol:

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Canseco (or anybody else) hasn't said anything about Pujols.

 

Well, I never said anything about Pujols and steroids. I brought up Pujols age, and it was meant to be a joke. But he's a very old looking 24-25 year old. And it's not uncommon to find players from other countries are actually 2 or 3 years older than they say they are. Was it Soriano a few years ago that was busted for this? But it was still only a joke.

 

And have you ever seen what happens to the human body after steroid use? A 43 year olds body would break down. Muscles deteriorate, and their bodies break down. Health issues are enormous for steroid users later in their lives. So we'd probably see some of that from Clemens if he was in fact on steroids. But you apparently already see it because he pulled himself after 8 innings instead of going 9. But steroids are another issue altogether. And that's not one we all need to rehash again.

 

You're the one that brought up the "proof" thing, not me. So don't act like I'm the one being ridiculous.

 

Yep, I'm being ridiculous. I'm being ridiculous for thinking Roger Clemens is durable, and for thinking he's the leading Cy Young candidate right now. I apologize for being so ridiculous. I'll try to keep my comments more in favor of the Cardinals from now on. :wink:

[K-Town]

This just in: MLB announced today that they have changed the name of the NL Cy Young award to the 'Pitcher with the most complete games award'. In advance of the end of the season, they've decided to give the award to Chris Carpenter. It will be presented to Carpenter in K-Town.

 

:wink: :lol:

 

All I'm saying is be consistent. If you gave it to Clemens last year because he won more games than Peavy and RJ, that's fine. Just don't change the standard this year, when Clemens is on the short end of that measurement. That's all.

 

Carpenter leads in wins. Carpenter leads in strikeouts. Carpenter leads in K/BB. Carpenter leads in innings pitched. WHIP is almost a toss-up. Clemens leads in OPS against (but has faced slightly weaker opponents). Carpenter has been better in "close and late" games.

 

Carpenter leads in alot of meaningful categories. Clemens leads in alot meaningful categories. I'm not just making a case to be argumentative. I'm making a case, because everyone is blinded by Clemens' ERA (rightfully so, I suppose). But there's more to the game than simply ERA, as we learned in last year's Cy Young voting.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

This just in: MLB announced today that they have changed the name of the NL Cy Young award to the 'Pitcher with the most complete games award'. In advance of the end of the season, they've decided to give the award to Chris Carpenter. It will be presented to Carpenter in K-Town.

 

:wink: :lol:

 

All I'm saying is be consistent. If you gave it to Clemens last year because he won more games than Peavy and RJ, that's fine. Just don't change the standard this year, when Clemens is on the short end of that measurement. That's all.

 

Carpenter leads in wins. Carpenter leads in strikeouts. Carpenter leads in K/BB. Carpenter leads in innings pitched. WHIP is almost a toss-up. Clemens leads in OPS against (but has faced slightly weaker opponents). Carpenter has been better in "close and late" games.

 

Carpenter leads in alot of meaningful categories. Clemens leads in alot meaningful categories. I'm not just making a case to be argumentative. I'm making a case, because everyone is blinded by Clemens' ERA (rightfully so, I suppose). But there's more to the game than simply ERA, as we learned in last year's Cy Young voting.

 

Fair enough. But we're trying to get you to see that it's not simply an ERA. Last years ERA leader led with a good ERA. But Clemens has an ERA that's unheard of in the modern era. He's at or near the top in every statistical category, just like Carp. But he has an ERA that is extraordinary. That's what puts him over the top. It's something that hasn't been done in many of our lifetimes, and probably won't be done again. Yeah, McGwire hit 70 homers that year, but he wasn't alone in breaking that record, and he wasn't at or near the top in virtually every other category.

[K-Town]

This just in: MLB announced today that they have changed the name of the NL Cy Young award to the 'Pitcher with the most complete games award'. In advance of the end of the season, they've decided to give the award to Chris Carpenter. It will be presented to Carpenter in K-Town.

 

:wink: :lol:

 

All I'm saying is be consistent. If you gave it to Clemens last year because he won more games than Peavy and RJ, that's fine. Just don't change the standard this year, when Clemens is on the short end of that measurement. That's all.

 

Carpenter leads in wins. Carpenter leads in strikeouts. Carpenter leads in K/BB. Carpenter leads in innings pitched. WHIP is almost a toss-up. Clemens leads in OPS against (but has faced slightly weaker opponents). Carpenter has been better in "close and late" games.

 

Carpenter leads in alot of meaningful categories. Clemens leads in alot meaningful categories. I'm not just making a case to be argumentative. I'm making a case, because everyone is blinded by Clemens' ERA (rightfully so, I suppose). But there's more to the game than simply ERA, as we learned in last year's Cy Young voting.

 

Fair enough. But we're trying to get you to see that it's not simply an ERA. Last years ERA leader led with a good ERA. But Clemens has an ERA that's unheard of in the modern era. He's at or near the top in every statistical category, just like Carp. But he has an ERA that is extraordinary. That's what puts him over the top. It's something that hasn't been done in many of our lifetimes, and probably won't be done again. Yeah, McGwire hit 70 homers that year, but he wasn't alone in breaking that record, and he wasn't at or near the top in virtually every other category.

 

That's fine. Clemens has a great ERA. He's not going to break any records (ala Sosa & McGwire). He's not going to do something that's never been done before. He's got a great ERA. That's the bottom line. But he won last year, being tied for 5th in the NL in ERA. The emphasis just seems to fluctuate, depending on what's convenient for Clemens.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

This just in: MLB announced today that they have changed the name of the NL Cy Young award to the 'Pitcher with the most complete games award'. In advance of the end of the season, they've decided to give the award to Chris Carpenter. It will be presented to Carpenter in K-Town.

 

:wink: :lol:

 

All I'm saying is be consistent. If you gave it to Clemens last year because he won more games than Peavy and RJ, that's fine. Just don't change the standard this year, when Clemens is on the short end of that measurement. That's all.

 

Carpenter leads in wins. Carpenter leads in strikeouts. Carpenter leads in K/BB. Carpenter leads in innings pitched. WHIP is almost a toss-up. Clemens leads in OPS against (but has faced slightly weaker opponents). Carpenter has been better in "close and late" games.

 

Carpenter leads in alot of meaningful categories. Clemens leads in alot meaningful categories. I'm not just making a case to be argumentative. I'm making a case, because everyone is blinded by Clemens' ERA (rightfully so, I suppose). But there's more to the game than simply ERA, as we learned in last year's Cy Young voting.

 

Fair enough. But we're trying to get you to see that it's not simply an ERA. Last years ERA leader led with a good ERA. But Clemens has an ERA that's unheard of in the modern era. He's at or near the top in every statistical category, just like Carp. But he has an ERA that is extraordinary. That's what puts him over the top. It's something that hasn't been done in many of our lifetimes, and probably won't be done again. Yeah, McGwire hit 70 homers that year, but he wasn't alone in breaking that record, and he wasn't at or near the top in virtually every other category.

 

That's fine. Clemens has a great ERA. He's not going to break any records (ala Sosa & McGwire). He's not going to do something that's never been done before. He's got a great ERA. That's the bottom line. But he won last year, being tied for 5th in the NL in ERA. The emphasis just seems to fluctuate, depending on what's convenient for Clemens.

 

Of course he won't break the ERA record. It's a different game now. This isn't the deadball era. He's doing something that hasn't been done in the modern era. And you're missing the point. ERA isn't the only reason he's leading in the Cy Young race (at least on this board). He's great in virtually every other category. Same thing as last year. He was 5th in ERA, but he was awesome in every statistical category. The fact that he's dominating while pitching almost every game in the juice box down there is simply staggering.

 

A lot of guys have had the year Carpenter is having. But very few have had the year that Clemens is having.

[K-Town]

Of course he won't break the ERA record. It's a different game now. This isn't the deadball era. He's doing something that hasn't been done in the modern era. And you're missing the point. ERA isn't the only reason he's leading in the Cy Young race (at least on this board). He's great in virtually every other category. Same thing as last year. He was 5th in ERA, but he was awesome in every statistical category. The fact that he's dominating while pitching almost every game in the juice box down there is simply staggering.

 

A lot of guys have had the year Carpenter is having. But very few have had the year that Clemens is having.

 

Carpenter has a .60 ERA in "the juice box" this year. Granted, he's only pitched 2 games there, but it's not like it's impossible to pitch there.

 

You think that alot of guys have the year that Carpenter is having? Name 3 NL pitchers who has had this kind of year, in the last 10 years.

 

Carpenter is top 5 in virtually every pitching category that you can imagine. Clemens isn't.

 

As I pointed out earlier, Clemens leads in several relevant pitching categories, and Carpenter leads in several relevant pitching categories. It just depends on which ones you want to look at.

Edited August 16, 2005 by K-Town

[gus_dog]

All I'm saying is be consistent. If you gave it to Clemens last year because he won more games than Peavy and RJ, that's fine. Just don't change the standard this year, when Clemens is on the short end of that measurement. That's all.

 

Carpenter leads in wins. Carpenter leads in strikeouts. Carpenter leads in K/BB. Carpenter leads in innings pitched. WHIP is almost a toss-up. Clemens leads in OPS against (but has faced slightly weaker opponents). Carpenter has been better in "close and late" games.

 

Carpenter leads in alot of meaningful categories. Clemens leads in alot meaningful categories. I'm not just making a case to be argumentative. I'm making a case, because everyone is blinded by Clemens' ERA (rightfully so, I suppose). But there's more to the game than simply ERA, as we learned in last year's Cy Young voting.

 

This is the best, most compelling argument you have made, IMO.

 

Let's see how it turns out, and may the best pitcher win!

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Carpenter has a .60 ERA in "the juice box" this year. Granted, he's only pitched 2 games there, but it's not like it's impossible to pitch there.

 

You think that alot of guys have the year that Carpenter is having? Name 3 NL pitchers who has had this kind of year, in the last 10 years.

 

Carpenter is top 5 in virtually every pitching category that you can imagine. Clemens isn't.

 

As I pointed out earlier, Clemens leads in several relevant pitching categories, and Carpenter leads in several relevant pitching categories. It just depends on which ones you want to look at.

 

So Carp has a .60 ERA in MMP this year huh? When did he face them? Let me guess, was it back when they were one of the worst teams in the league and were 15 games under .500? 2 appearances don't show much.

 

Depends on what categories I want to look at? Well, I tend to look at the ones that actually matter. And in those categories, Clemens is equal to, or better than Carp.

 

You want three pitchers that had the year Carp is having or better?

* Randy Johnson - 2002

* Pedro Martinez - 1997 (only 17 wins, but he was on the Expos - not the Cardinals)

* Greg Maddux - 1995 (19 wins - 10 of your coveted complete games... oh yeah, and a 1.63 ERA)

 

This is just a small sample that I looked up in two minutes. I can go on listing if you'd like. Okay, I'll go one more:

 

Roger Clemens - 2005

 

You don't want me to bring up AL pitchers, there's a ton over there too.

[K-Town]

Carpenter has a .60 ERA in "the juice box" this year. Granted, he's only pitched 2 games there, but it's not like it's impossible to pitch there.

 

You think that alot of guys have the year that Carpenter is having? Name 3 NL pitchers who has had this kind of year, in the last 10 years.

 

Carpenter is top 5 in virtually every pitching category that you can imagine. Clemens isn't.

 

As I pointed out earlier, Clemens leads in several relevant pitching categories, and Carpenter leads in several relevant pitching categories. It just depends on which ones you want to look at.

 

So Carp has a .60 ERA in MMP this year huh? When did he face them? Let me guess, was it back when they were one of the worst teams in the league and were 15 games under .500? 2 appearances don't show much.

 

Depends on what categories I want to look at? Well, I tend to look at the ones that actually matter. And in those categories, Clemens is equal to, or better than Carp.

 

You want three pitchers that had the year Carp is having or better?

* Randy Johnson - 2002

* Pedro Martinez - 1997 (only 17 wins, but he was on the Expos - not the Cardinals)

* Greg Maddux - 1995 (19 wins - 10 of your coveted complete games... oh yeah, and a 1.63 ERA)

 

This is just a small sample that I looked up in two minutes. I can go on listing if you'd like. Okay, I'll go one more:

 

Roger Clemens - 2005

 

You don't want me to bring up AL pitchers, there's a ton over there too.

 

I said the last 10 years. 1995 wasn't the last 10 years. So you found 2. 2005 isn't over yet, so we're not counting 2005 Clemens. Go ahead an list more, if you think you can.

 

If you want me to tell you how well Houston was hitting when Carpenter shut them down at Minute Maid, then you'll first need to tell me how well the teams were hitting the Clemens has beat there. I SAID that 2 games don't mean much, so you didn't really need to mention that. But it does show that it's not impossible for a pitcher to throw well there.

 

The categories that matter? I'm pretty sure that "wins" matter (at least they did last year, when Clemens won the award). I'm also pretty sure that "close and late game performance" matters. Whether you want to admit it or not, the fact that Carpenter has saved his bullpen a few innings here and there matters, too.

[K-Town]

By the way, Roy Oswalt has managed to win 14 games on that pathetic Houston team, but Clemens can only come up with 11? Maybe it's because Oswalt has stuck around for more than 7 innings 10 times this year. If I were in Houston's lineup, I think I'd be more inclined to put forth a little more effort for a guy who's going to gut it out, too.

[treebird]

By the way, Roy Oswalt has managed to win 14 games on that pathetic Houston team, but Clemens can only come up with 11? Maybe it's because Oswalt has stuck around for more than 7 innings 10 times this year. If I were in Houston's lineup, I think I'd be more inclined to put forth a little more effort for a guy who's going to gut it out, too.

 

NOBODY CARES ABOUT WINS AND THEY ARENT HELPING YOUR ARGUMENT

 

WINS ARE MEANINGLESS