Clemens,Carpenter, or Willis for Cy Young? (edit)

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Just because Carpenter throws an extra half inning a game does not make him more dominant. You're the first person I've actually heard say that Clemens hasn't been the most dominant. He's had one "bad" start. And in that bad start he only gave up 4 runs. His ERA is dominant over everyone's, INCLUDING Carpenter. He leads the league in most of the major pitching categories (except for complete games, which while relevant, I think you highly overrate.)

 

Clemens dwarfs him in ERA. His WHIP is better. He gives up less hits and home runs. He has a lower batting average against. And is dead even with him in K's per 9 innings. If Clemens had the Cards offense behind him for most of the year, there's a good chance he'd be undefeated or have one loss. He's more dominant than Carp.

[K-Town]

Why rish the injury to your star pitcher if you don't have to? His job isn't go to out and try to win the Cy Young by blowing out his arm. His job is to put his team in a position to win. And he's done that... every single game. If LaRussa wants to burn out Carp's arm just so he can win some stupid award, go right ahead. No Cubs fan will ever complain about a Cards player being used incorrectly. But it seems pretty moronic to do that to a guy that's only gone over 200 innings ONCE in his career. Especially since you're going to need him to be fresh if you want to win the world series.

 

I'm not sure how a pitcher with an ERA of 1.32 is helping his team by insisting that a bullpen with an ERA of 3.83 finish what he started, time after time after time after time.........

 

Seems to me that I'd want the pitcher with the ERA of 1.32 in there a little longer, rather than the bullpen, with an ERA of 3.83.

[K-Town]

Just because Carpenter throws an extra half inning a game does not make him more dominant. You're the first person I've actually heard say that Clemens hasn't been the most dominant. He's had one "bad" start. And in that bad start he only gave up 4 runs. His ERA is dominant over everyone's, INCLUDING Carpenter. He leads the league in most of the major pitching categories (except for complete games, which while relevant, I think you highly overrate.)

 

Clemens dwarfs him in ERA. His WHIP is better. He gives up less hits and home runs. He has a lower batting average against. And is dead even with him in K's per 9 innings. If Clemens had the Cards offense behind him for most of the year, there's a good chance he'd be undefeated or have one loss. He's more dominant than Carp.

 

Carpenter is more dominant. He's pitched 3 of the best 5 games in baseball this year. Clemens isn't even on the list. Clemens has been more consistent, because he's had the advantage of being coddled more than Carpenter. Carpenter WANTS the ball in the 8th & 9th inning, and has shown that he'll finish the job. Clemens wants a shower after 7. Furthermore, Carpenter has faced batters with a .737 OPS. Clemens, .730. Carpenter has faced 7 playoff teams. Clemens, 3.

 

It's not black and white. Both pitchers have done things that the other hasn't. They've both been great, in different ways.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Just because Carpenter throws an extra half inning a game does not make him more dominant. You're the first person I've actually heard say that Clemens hasn't been the most dominant. He's had one "bad" start. And in that bad start he only gave up 4 runs. His ERA is dominant over everyone's, INCLUDING Carpenter. He leads the league in most of the major pitching categories (except for complete games, which while relevant, I think you highly overrate.)

 

Clemens dwarfs him in ERA. His WHIP is better. He gives up less hits and home runs. He has a lower batting average against. And is dead even with him in K's per 9 innings. If Clemens had the Cards offense behind him for most of the year, there's a good chance he'd be undefeated or have one loss. He's more dominant than Carp.

 

Carpenter is more dominant. He's pitched 3 of the best 5 games in baseball this year. Clemens isn't even on the list. Clemens has been more consistent, because he's had the advantage of being coddled more than Carpenter. Carpenter WANTS the ball in the 8th & 9th inning, and has shown that he'll finish the job. Clemens wants a shower after 7.

 

So you talk to Roger a lot huh? He told you this as a fact? Wow, I didn't know he was that close to you Cardinal fans. What's he like in real life? You have no idea why he doesn't go for complete games. Maybe it's because Garner knows a 43 year olds arm is more prone to fatigue injuries than a 23 year olds. Maybe he's not as petty as LaRussa and doesn't care about a guys personal stats. Quit stating your opinion of him as a fact. The fact is, Chris Carpenter is not Roger Clemens. Chris Carpenter will never be Roger Clemens. It would be a flat out miracle if Carpenter even had a career half as good as Clemens. The fact is, Carp has had one and a half good years while Clemens has had 21 straight.

 

I'm not sure how a pitcher with an ERA of 1.32 is helping his team by insisting that a bullpen with an ERA of 3.83 finish what he started, time after time after time after time.........

 

Seems to me that I'd want the pitcher with the ERA of 1.32 in there a little longer, rather than the bullpen, with an ERA of 3.83.

 

Yeah, and when you're stud pitcher with a 1.32 ends up on the DL? Give me a break. Can you honestly tell me you'd feel more confident with a tired and worn down Carpenter out there in the 9th than a fresh Izzy? That's borderline insanity.

[cubweiser03]

Fair enough. I'm not discrediting what Clemens is doing. I'm truly AMAZED by what he's doing. It's just a big red flag to me that he's not durable enough to finish even ONE GAME in an entire season. Again, that's unprecedented for a Cy Young candidate. Clemens MAY finish with the best ERA in the modern era, that much is true. But he may also be the only starting pitcher in the history of baseball to win the award without finishing a single game that he started.

 

This one is just too easy to hammer, i mean i read that word UNPRECEDENTED and thats just too easy. How bout...

 

Roger Clemens 2001 CG=O

Barry Zito 2002 CG=1

 

Clemens has pitched 3 CG in his last 7 years.

Peavy pitched in 27 games and had 166 IP. Maybe that might have something to do with him not winning last year. Clemens will probably pitch another 8 games and 50 IP bringing it to 214 IP like he did last year.

[XZero771679666304]

GusDog wrote:

Therefore, I respectfully submit that neither one of these positions is going to change, as it appears there is no middle ground.

 

The middle ground might be that each side decides to agree to disagree. Or agree that the rest of the season might open up opportunities for Clemens or Carp to be a clear cut winner. I sure hope that is the case because if Clemens wins because of ERA alone than the whole process will look pretty questionable.

 

I can agree to that. It's obvious there is no middle ground in this discussion. I hope one or the other runs away with it, so there's no debate at the end of the year. But the debate now isn't just because of Clemens ERA. He's also among the league leaders in almost every other category. His ERA isn't the only reason I think he's leading right now. It's the fact that he's the most dominant pitcher in baseball.

 

He's not the most "dominant". He's probably been the most consistent, for 7 innings a game, but Carpenter is more dominant.

 

Carpenter has pitched 3 of the 5 best games in baseball (not just the NL, but in the entire Major Leagues), according to ESPN's game scores. Clemens is nowhere to be found:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/bestgames

 

 

In fact, if Carpenter hadn't blown up for one game back in April (3.1 innings, 8 earned runs), then he'd have an ERA well under 2, and would probably be the easy favorite for the Cy Young Award. Now, I'm not saying that game should be ignored, because it shouldn't. My only point is that Carpenter has been awfully steady, except for one bad outing. Give Clemens the 17 extra innings that Carpenter has (especially going late into games), and Clemens might have busted up once or twice. Who knows?

 

Actually, if you remove Carp's 8 run game, he would have an ERA barely under 2, 1.98 to be exact. Still over half a run higher than Roger's. Roger allows less runs, less baserunners, has a lower BAA, opponent SLG and OPS. Roger has not had one start where he gave up more than 3 ER.

 

3 great starts do nothing to change the fact that Roger has been better in nearly every facet. Roger is a more dominant pitcher by almost any standard. He simply shuts down the opponent more effectively, and more consistently. Carp averages less than an inning per start more than Clemens, which is not as significant as the statistical advantage Roger has in nearly every category.

[K-Town]

Fair enough. I'm not discrediting what Clemens is doing. I'm truly AMAZED by what he's doing. It's just a big red flag to me that he's not durable enough to finish even ONE GAME in an entire season. Again, that's unprecedented for a Cy Young candidate. Clemens MAY finish with the best ERA in the modern era, that much is true. But he may also be the only starting pitcher in the history of baseball to win the award without finishing a single game that he started.

 

This one is just too easy to hammer, i mean i read that word UNPRECEDENTED and thats just too easy. How bout...

 

Roger Clemens 2001 CG=O

Barry Zito 2002 CG=1

 

Clemens has pitched 3 CG in his last 7 years.

Peavy pitched in 27 games and had 166 IP. Maybe that might have something to do with him not winning last year. Clemens will probably pitch another 8 games and 50 IP bringing it to 214 IP like he did last year.

 

 

OK. I stand corrected. CLEMENS can win the Cy Young Award without finishing a single game. Nobody else is allowed to apparently.

 

So in the scenerio stated above (Peavy vs. Clemens), where the innings favored Clemens, innings DO matter. Yet this year (Clemens vs. Carpenter), when the innings DON'T favor Clemens, then we'll ignore them? Isn't that convenient?

 

You're telling me that Peavy lost last year because of fewer innings, even though he had a far superior ERA? OK, then why shouldn't Clemens lose this year because of fewer innings, even though he has a better ERA?

 

You can't have it both ways.

[XZero771679666304]

Just because Carpenter throws an extra half inning a game does not make him more dominant. You're the first person I've actually heard say that Clemens hasn't been the most dominant. He's had one "bad" start. And in that bad start he only gave up 4 runs. His ERA is dominant over everyone's, INCLUDING Carpenter. He leads the league in most of the major pitching categories (except for complete games, which while relevant, I think you highly overrate.)

 

Clemens dwarfs him in ERA. His WHIP is better. He gives up less hits and home runs. He has a lower batting average against. And is dead even with him in K's per 9 innings. If Clemens had the Cards offense behind him for most of the year, there's a good chance he'd be undefeated or have one loss. He's more dominant than Carp.

 

Carpenter is more dominant. He's pitched 3 of the best 5 games in baseball this year. Clemens isn't even on the list. Clemens has been more consistent, because he's had the advantage of being coddled more than Carpenter. Carpenter WANTS the ball in the 8th & 9th inning, and has shown that he'll finish the job. Clemens wants a shower after 7. Furthermore, Carpenter has faced batters with a .737 OPS. Clemens, .730. Carpenter has faced 7 playoff teams. Clemens, 3.

 

It's not black and white. Both pitchers have done things that the other hasn't. They've both been great, in different ways.

 

Clemens is more effective when he is in the game than Carp is. This is the definition of dominance. Dominance = effectiveness. Stamina falls into a different category.

[K-Town]

GusDog wrote:

Therefore, I respectfully submit that neither one of these positions is going to change, as it appears there is no middle ground.

 

The middle ground might be that each side decides to agree to disagree. Or agree that the rest of the season might open up opportunities for Clemens or Carp to be a clear cut winner. I sure hope that is the case because if Clemens wins because of ERA alone than the whole process will look pretty questionable.

 

I can agree to that. It's obvious there is no middle ground in this discussion. I hope one or the other runs away with it, so there's no debate at the end of the year. But the debate now isn't just because of Clemens ERA. He's also among the league leaders in almost every other category. His ERA isn't the only reason I think he's leading right now. It's the fact that he's the most dominant pitcher in baseball.

 

He's not the most "dominant". He's probably been the most consistent, for 7 innings a game, but Carpenter is more dominant.

 

Carpenter has pitched 3 of the 5 best games in baseball (not just the NL, but in the entire Major Leagues), according to ESPN's game scores. Clemens is nowhere to be found:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/bestgames

 

 

In fact, if Carpenter hadn't blown up for one game back in April (3.1 innings, 8 earned runs), then he'd have an ERA well under 2, and would probably be the easy favorite for the Cy Young Award. Now, I'm not saying that game should be ignored, because it shouldn't. My only point is that Carpenter has been awfully steady, except for one bad outing. Give Clemens the 17 extra innings that Carpenter has (especially going late into games), and Clemens might have busted up once or twice. Who knows?

 

Actually, if you remove Carp's 8 run game, he would have an ERA barely under 2, 1.98 to be exact. Still over half a run higher than Roger's. Roger allows less runs, less baserunners, has a lower BAA, opponent SLG and OPS. Roger has not had one start where he gave up more than 3 ER.

 

3 great starts do nothing to change the fact that Roger has been better in nearly every facet. Roger is a more dominant pitcher by almost any standard. He simply shuts down the opponent more effectively, and more consistently. Carp averages less than an inning per start more than Clemens, which is not as significant as the statistical advantage Roger has in nearly every category.

 

Clemens wins in most of the rate stats. Carpenter wins in strikeouts, and K/BB, which are numbers that alot of people use to determine "dominance".

 

3 great starts? Carpenter has been great virtually every time out. And he's given his bullpen 17 innings of rest that Clemens hasn't.

 

By my math, if you remove Carpenter's 8-run game, he would have given up 37 earned runs in 177 innings, for a 1.88 ERA. Maybe my math is wrong, or maybe yours is wrong.

[K-Town]

Just because Carpenter throws an extra half inning a game does not make him more dominant. You're the first person I've actually heard say that Clemens hasn't been the most dominant. He's had one "bad" start. And in that bad start he only gave up 4 runs. His ERA is dominant over everyone's, INCLUDING Carpenter. He leads the league in most of the major pitching categories (except for complete games, which while relevant, I think you highly overrate.)

 

Clemens dwarfs him in ERA. His WHIP is better. He gives up less hits and home runs. He has a lower batting average against. And is dead even with him in K's per 9 innings. If Clemens had the Cards offense behind him for most of the year, there's a good chance he'd be undefeated or have one loss. He's more dominant than Carp.

 

Carpenter is more dominant. He's pitched 3 of the best 5 games in baseball this year. Clemens isn't even on the list. Clemens has been more consistent, because he's had the advantage of being coddled more than Carpenter. Carpenter WANTS the ball in the 8th & 9th inning, and has shown that he'll finish the job. Clemens wants a shower after 7. Furthermore, Carpenter has faced batters with a .737 OPS. Clemens, .730. Carpenter has faced 7 playoff teams. Clemens, 3.

 

It's not black and white. Both pitchers have done things that the other hasn't. They've both been great, in different ways.

 

Clemens is more effective when he is in the game than Carp is. This is the definition of dominance. Dominance = effectiveness. Stamina falls into a different category.

 

We can debate the meaning of "dominance" all day long.

 

Chad Cordero is the most dominant pitcher in baseball, by your definition.

[indifferent]

This is really beating a dead horse here. The decision's not made today, it's made at the end of the season. The choice will be clear then. And personally, if LaRussa allows Carp to go one more complete game this season, I think he needs to have his head examined. He is an injury prone pitcher already at 180 innings (on pace for 245), more than any other year except 2001 (215 IP and look where that got him the next year). If necessary, save it for the post season. Carp is the one pitcher we need to have any hope of going far in the playoffs. I'd like to see him there.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

OK. I stand corrected. CLEMENS can win the Cy Young Award without finishing a single game. Nobody else is allowed to apparently.

 

So in the scenerio stated above (Peavy vs. Clemens), where the innings favored Clemens, innings DO matter. Yet this year (Clemens vs. Carpenter), when the innings DON'T favor Clemens, then we'll ignore them? Isn't that convenient?

 

You're telling me that Peavy lost last year because of fewer innings, even though he had a far superior ERA? OK, then why shouldn't Clemens lose this year because of fewer innings, even though he has a better ERA?

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

Clemens is still going to finish with over 200 innings. Peavy didn't even come close to that if I recall correctly. 200 innings is WAY more than enough for one season. If it were easy to do that, people would do it almost every year. Carp has done it only once while Clemens has done it for the better part of 21 years. The few inning advantage he has doesn't mean anything. It just means that LaRussa is willing to burn his guy out and ruin his arm for good so that he can win a trophy instead of a world series.

 

And your understanding of stats is flawed. In 2002 or 2003, Kerry Wood led the majors in strikeouts. Was he the most dominant pitcher that year? Not by a long shot. Greg Maddux has never been a strikeout pitcher, how many Cy Youngs does he have? Strikeouts are overrated. And they only good if you can get them in the right situations.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

This is really beating a dead horse here. The decision's not made today, it's made at the end of the season. The choice will be clear then. And personally, if LaRussa allows Carp to go one more complete game this season, I think he needs to have his head examined. He is an injury prone pitcher already at 180 innings (on pace for 245), more than any other year except 2001 (215 IP and look where that got him the next year). If necessary, save it for the post season. Carp is the one pitcher we need to have any hope of going far in the playoffs. I'd like to see him there.

 

Exactly, the wise thing to do would be to start limiting his innings soon. He's a vital part of your world series chances. That's not someone you want gasping in the playoffs. Look where overusing pitchers got the Cubs in '03.

[K-Town]

So you talk to Roger a lot huh? He told you this as a fact? Wow, I didn't know he was that close to you Cardinal fans. What's he like in real life? You have no idea why he doesn't go for complete games. Maybe it's because Garner knows a 43 year olds arm is more prone to fatigue injuries than a 23 year olds. Maybe he's not as petty as LaRussa and doesn't care about a guys personal stats. Quit stating your opinion of him as a fact. The fact is, Chris Carpenter is not Roger Clemens. Chris Carpenter will never be Roger Clemens. It would be a flat out miracle if Carpenter even had a career half as good as Clemens. The fact is, Carp has had one and a half good years while Clemens has had 21 straight.

 

No argument. Clemens is one of the best pitchers in baseball history. Carpenter will never have the career that Clemens has had. Never.

 

No, I've never talked to Clemens in my life. I know why he took himself out of Saturday's game, because he told everyone in America about his sore back. It had nothing to do with Garner. Clemens makes his own rules ("yeah, I think I'll retire......... oh wait, nevermind". "I think I'll only pitch when Houston is at home, because I want to be with my family........... oh wait, nevermind"). Do I need to go on?

 

 

 

Yeah, and when you're stud pitcher with a 1.32 ends up on the DL? Give me a break. Can you honestly tell me you'd feel more confident with a tired and worn down Carpenter out there in the 9th than a fresh Izzy? That's borderline insanity.

 

I agree. It's probably not a bad idea to coddle Clemens. He needs it, because he's not very durable. Funny you should mention a "fresh Izzy". I'm sure that the other 4 starters in the Cardinal rotation are thrilled to have a "fresh Izzy" ready to go for them, because Carpenter didn't need him to finish what HE started.

[cubweiser03]

Fair enough. I'm not discrediting what Clemens is doing. I'm truly AMAZED by what he's doing. It's just a big red flag to me that he's not durable enough to finish even ONE GAME in an entire season. Again, that's unprecedented for a Cy Young candidate. Clemens MAY finish with the best ERA in the modern era, that much is true. But he may also be the only starting pitcher in the history of baseball to win the award without finishing a single game that he started.

 

This one is just too easy to hammer, i mean i read that word UNPRECEDENTED and thats just too easy. How bout...

 

Roger Clemens 2001 CG=O

Barry Zito 2002 CG=1

 

Clemens has pitched 3 CG in his last 7 years.

Peavy pitched in 27 games and had 166 IP. Maybe that might have something to do with him not winning last year. Clemens will probably pitch another 8 games and 50 IP bringing it to 214 IP like he did last year.

 

 

OK. I stand corrected. CLEMENS can win the Cy Young Award without finishing a single game. Nobody else is allowed to apparently.

 

So in the scenerio stated above (Peavy vs. Clemens), where the innings favored Clemens, innings DO matter. Yet this year (Clemens vs. Carpenter), when the innings DON'T favor Clemens, then we'll ignore them? Isn't that convenient?

 

You're telling me that Peavy lost last year because of fewer innings, even though he had a far superior ERA? OK, then why shouldn't Clemens lose this year because of fewer innings, even though he has a better ERA?

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

Oh i forgort Clemens won the Cy Young last year with no CG. Last year Clemens was on a playoff conteder Peavy wasnt he also helped his team win more games than Peavy did. If Clemens didnt pitch those extra games they wouldn not have made the playoffs. He pitched 50 more IP than Peavy not 16.

 

ERA shouldnt tell the whole story and neither should IP. The difference in IP of roger/carp is a lot smaller than the difference in ERA. They both have lost 4 games while Carp has won 6 more but i think its been stated pretty clearly as to why he has won 6 more than roger.

[K-Town]

OK. I stand corrected. CLEMENS can win the Cy Young Award without finishing a single game. Nobody else is allowed to apparently.

 

So in the scenerio stated above (Peavy vs. Clemens), where the innings favored Clemens, innings DO matter. Yet this year (Clemens vs. Carpenter), when the innings DON'T favor Clemens, then we'll ignore them? Isn't that convenient?

 

You're telling me that Peavy lost last year because of fewer innings, even though he had a far superior ERA? OK, then why shouldn't Clemens lose this year because of fewer innings, even though he has a better ERA?

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

Clemens is still going to finish with over 200 innings. Peavy didn't even come close to that if I recall correctly. 200 innings is WAY more than enough for one season. If it were easy to do that, people would do it almost every year. Carp has done it only once while Clemens has done it for the better part of 21 years. The few inning advantage he has doesn't mean anything. It just means that LaRussa is willing to burn his guy out and ruin his arm for good so that he can win a trophy instead of a world series.

 

And your understanding of stats is flawed. In 2002 or 2003, Kerry Wood led the majors in strikeouts. Was he the most dominant pitcher that year? Not by a long shot. Greg Maddux has never been a strikeout pitcher, how many Cy Youngs does he have? Strikeouts are overrated. And they only good if you can get them in the right situations.

 

So 200 innings is the standard that you've set. OK. I'm glad you're making your rules clear as we go. Anything that's convenient to Clemens' cause.

 

I've already said that I'm not going to debate "dominance" with you, because your definition and mine are clearly different. I can tell you that Carpenter has pitched 3 of the top 5 games in baseball this year. Clemens isn't on the list. Why? Because the people who came up with that stat believe that a starting pitcher should go more than 7 innings in order to be considered "dominant". I'm not saying they're right or wrong, but they place a strong emphasis on being able to finish what you start, or it's not "dominant".

[XZero771679666304]

GusDog wrote:

Therefore, I respectfully submit that neither one of these positions is going to change, as it appears there is no middle ground.

 

The middle ground might be that each side decides to agree to disagree. Or agree that the rest of the season might open up opportunities for Clemens or Carp to be a clear cut winner. I sure hope that is the case because if Clemens wins because of ERA alone than the whole process will look pretty questionable.

 

I can agree to that. It's obvious there is no middle ground in this discussion. I hope one or the other runs away with it, so there's no debate at the end of the year. But the debate now isn't just because of Clemens ERA. He's also among the league leaders in almost every other category. His ERA isn't the only reason I think he's leading right now. It's the fact that he's the most dominant pitcher in baseball.

 

He's not the most "dominant". He's probably been the most consistent, for 7 innings a game, but Carpenter is more dominant.

 

Carpenter has pitched 3 of the 5 best games in baseball (not just the NL, but in the entire Major Leagues), according to ESPN's game scores. Clemens is nowhere to be found:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/bestgames

 

 

In fact, if Carpenter hadn't blown up for one game back in April (3.1 innings, 8 earned runs), then he'd have an ERA well under 2, and would probably be the easy favorite for the Cy Young Award. Now, I'm not saying that game should be ignored, because it shouldn't. My only point is that Carpenter has been awfully steady, except for one bad outing. Give Clemens the 17 extra innings that Carpenter has (especially going late into games), and Clemens might have busted up once or twice. Who knows?

 

Actually, if you remove Carp's 8 run game, he would have an ERA barely under 2, 1.98 to be exact. Still over half a run higher than Roger's. Roger allows less runs, less baserunners, has a lower BAA, opponent SLG and OPS. Roger has not had one start where he gave up more than 3 ER.

 

3 great starts do nothing to change the fact that Roger has been better in nearly every facet. Roger is a more dominant pitcher by almost any standard. He simply shuts down the opponent more effectively, and more consistently. Carp averages less than an inning per start more than Clemens, which is not as significant as the statistical advantage Roger has in nearly every category.

 

Clemens wins in most of the rate stats. Carpenter wins in strikeouts, and K/BB, which are numbers that alot of people use to determine "dominance".

 

3 great starts? Carpenter has been great virtually every time out. And he's given his bullpen 17 innings of rest that Clemens hasn't.

 

By my math, if you remove Carpenter's 8-run game, he would have given up 37 earned runs in 177 innings, for a 1.88 ERA. Maybe my math is wrong, or maybe yours is wrong.

 

I may have been wrong. 1.88, 1.98, either way, it is still not "well" under 2, and a far cry from Clemens. And I don't think people define dominance by strikeouts. Carp is 6th in the NL among qualified SP in k/9, so does that make him the 6th most dominant pitcher? I didn't think so. Dominance is allowing few runs and few baserunners. Clemens does both better than Carpenter.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

No argument. Clemens is one of the best pitchers in baseball history. Carpenter will never have the career that Clemens has had. Never.

 

No, I've never talked to Clemens in my life. I know why he took himself out of Saturday's game, because he told everyone in America about his sore back. It had nothing to do with Garner. Clemens makes his own rules ("yeah, I think I'll retire......... oh wait, nevermind". "I think I'll only pitch when Houston is at home, because I want to be with my family........... oh wait, nevermind"). Do I need to go on?

 

He took himself out of ONE game after EIGHT SHUTOUT INNINGS, and you act like this is an everyday occurance. Clemens is quite possibly one of the most durable guys in baseball HISTORY. Carpenter on the other hand, hahahahaha. I think he's spent more time on the DL than on the active roster.

 

And since when does he only pitch at home? Wow, you pulled that one out of nowhere. He said he might not travel with the team when he's not pitching, but the Astros agreed to let him do that. He's earned that right. And how many guys have come out of retirement? What is wrong with that? He's out of retirement and making everyone look foolish when he's on the mound.

 

I agree. It's probably not a bad idea to coddle Clemens. He needs it, because he's not very durable. Funny you should mention a "fresh Izzy". I'm sure that the other 4 starters in the Cardinal rotation are thrilled to have a "fresh Izzy" ready to go for them, because Carpenter didn't need him to finish what HE started.

 

Wow, just wow. I wonder what it's like to only see Cardinal red.

Edited August 16, 2005 by BleedCubbieBlue81

[K-Town]

Oh i forgort Clemens won the Cy Young last year with no CG. Last year Clemens was on a playoff conteder Peavy wasnt he also helped his team win more games than Peavy did. If Clemens didnt pitch those extra games they wouldn not have made the playoffs. He pitched 50 more IP than Peavy not 16.

 

And by the end of the year, Carpenter will likely have 25 more innings than Clemens. Is 50 extra innings the standard for this debate? Again, you're making rules up as we go along. And now playoff contention is a decisive factor, too. OK, I'm glad we're getting these things cleared up.

 

ERA shouldnt tell the whole story and neither should IP. The difference in IP of roger/carp is a lot smaller than the difference in ERA. They both have lost 4 games while Carp has won 6 more but i think its been stated pretty clearly as to why he has won 6 more than roger.

 

Yup. It's been stated pretty clear why Carp has won 6 more games. Just as it was stated pretty clearly last year why Randy Johnson didn't win as many games as Roger Clemens (because RJ was on a horrible team). It didn't seem to matter last year. Nobody wanted to give the award to Randy Johnson. Now that the tables are turned, everybody suddenly sees the light, and wants to give consideration to a guy who isn't getting the run support.

 

Hypocritical.

[K-Town]

No argument. Clemens is one of the best pitchers in baseball history. Carpenter will never have the career that Clemens has had. Never.

 

No, I've never talked to Clemens in my life. I know why he took himself out of Saturday's game, because he told everyone in America about his sore back. It had nothing to do with Garner. Clemens makes his own rules ("yeah, I think I'll retire......... oh wait, nevermind". "I think I'll only pitch when Houston is at home, because I want to be with my family........... oh wait, nevermind"). Do I need to go on?

 

He took himself out of ONE game after EIGHT SHUTOUT INNINGS, and you act like this is an everyday occurance. Clemens is quite possibly one of the most durable guys in baseball HISTORY. Carpenter on the other hand, hahahahaha. I think he's spent more time on the DL than on the active roster.

 

And since when does he only pitch at home? Wow, you pulled that one out of nowhere. He said he might not travel with the team when he's not pitching, but the Astros agreed to let him do that. He's earned that right. And how many guys have come out of retirement? What is wrong with that? He's out of retirement and making everyone look foolish when he's on the mound.

 

I agree. It's probably not a bad idea to coddle Clemens. He needs it, because he's not very durable. Funny you should mention a "fresh Izzy". I'm sure that the other 4 starters in the Cardinal rotation are thrilled to have a "fresh Izzy" ready to go for them, because Carpenter didn't need him to finish what HE started.

 

Wow, just wow. I wonder what it's like to only see Cardinal red.

 

It probably sucks. :wink: I hate to even think about it.

[cubweiser03]

I agree. It's probably not a bad idea to coddle Clemens. He needs it, because he's not very durable. Funny you should mention a "fresh Izzy". I'm sure that the other 4 starters in the Cardinal rotation are thrilled to have a "fresh Izzy" ready to go for them, because Carpenter didn't need him to finish what HE started.

 

No Roger is not durable at all. The dude just breaksdown all the time. Who brokedown last year and wasnt available for the playoffs? In Clemens career of 21 full years he has pitched in 29 games or more in 17 of those years, 2 of those were his first two years. The dude is just not durable.

Edited August 16, 2005 by cubweiser03

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Oh i forgort Clemens won the Cy Young last year with no CG. Last year Clemens was on a playoff conteder Peavy wasnt he also helped his team win more games than Peavy did. If Clemens didnt pitch those extra games they wouldn not have made the playoffs. He pitched 50 more IP than Peavy not 16.

 

And by the end of the year, Carpenter will likely have 25 more innings than Clemens. Is 50 extra innings the standard for this debate? Again, you're making rules up as we go along. And now playoff contention is a decisive factor, too. OK, I'm glad we're getting these things cleared up.

 

ERA shouldnt tell the whole story and neither should IP. The difference in IP of roger/carp is a lot smaller than the difference in ERA. They both have lost 4 games while Carp has won 6 more but i think its been stated pretty clearly as to why he has won 6 more than roger.

 

Yup. It's been stated pretty clear why Carp has won 6 more games. Just as it was stated pretty clearly last year why Randy Johnson didn't win as many games as Roger Clemens (because RJ was on a horrible team). It didn't seem to matter last year. Nobody wanted to give the award to Randy Johnson. Now that the tables are turned, everybody suddenly sees the light, and wants to give consideration to a guy who isn't getting the run support.

 

Hypocritical.

 

Randy Johnson wasn't the far and away best pitcher last year with an ERA that hasn't been touched in decades. That's why he didn't win the Cy Young. And he definitely got consideration, just not enough. When Carps ERA drops down to even the same ballpark as Clemens, then maybe he'd be leading.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I agree. It's probably not a bad idea to coddle Clemens. He needs it, because he's not very durable. Funny you should mention a "fresh Izzy". I'm sure that the other 4 starters in the Cardinal rotation are thrilled to have a "fresh Izzy" ready to go for them, because Carpenter didn't need him to finish what HE started.

 

No Roger is not durable at all. The dude just breaksdown all the time. Who brokedown last year and wasnt available for the playoffs? In Clemens career of 21 full years he has pitched in 29 games 17 of those years, 2 of those were his first two years. The dude is just not durable.

 

Yep, 21 years in the major leagues. Definitely not durable. :roll:

[K-Town]

I may have been wrong. 1.88, 1.98, either way, it is still not "well" under 2, and a far cry from Clemens. And I don't think people define dominance by strikeouts. Carp is 6th in the NL among qualified SP in k/9, so does that make him the 6th most dominant pitcher? I didn't think so. Dominance is allowing few runs and few baserunners. Clemens does both better than Carpenter.

 

And Chad Cordero is better than both of them. :roll:

 

1.88 is "well below 2", in my opinion, when talking about ERA.

[K-Town]

I agree. It's probably not a bad idea to coddle Clemens. He needs it, because he's not very durable. Funny you should mention a "fresh Izzy". I'm sure that the other 4 starters in the Cardinal rotation are thrilled to have a "fresh Izzy" ready to go for them, because Carpenter didn't need him to finish what HE started.

 

No Roger is not durable at all. The dude just breaksdown all the time. Who brokedown last year and wasnt available for the playoffs? In Clemens career of 21 full years he has pitched in 29 games or more in 17 of those years, 2 of those were his first two years. The dude is just not durable.

 

"Durable", as compared to Carpenter this year. Let's keep thing in context, please.