Another Idiotic Decision by NCAA

[imb]

that's not the argument. this wildcat thing, i mean, if you're serious, wow. indians are human beings. their traditions and beliefs are being lampooned in football games and colleges are making millions of dollars by selling merchandise with pictures of them on it.

 

"yeah, hi there... i'm a member of the seminole tribe, um, my people were brtually killed a couple hundred years ago in what's been argued as genocide by white people."

 

"yeah... um we're sorry about that."

 

"it's cool, i mean, it sucks and all, but yeah. could you just maybe not make my race the name of your football team? just because, you know, we're a really proud people, and we wouldn't want something that we really love and believe in to be thought of as something as irrelevant and silly as a sports team. it's just something we cherish."

 

"yeahhhhhh... no, sorry. we know you're offended, but we're not. i mean, we're white people, we would understand your plight."

 

"drag."

 

The story about my great grandmother was as fictional as that dialogue you just wrote...here in Indiana there are plenty of mascots that are based off of white men such as the Andrean 59ers, Mishawaka Cavemen, Jimtown Jimmies, Floyd Central Highlanders, Plymouth Pilgrims....etc and not once has any discussion been had about replacing those. All have ridiculous mascots who dance around at games as well. Surely there are some relatives of those folks (well save for cavemen) who would be offended you say? I say NO because its A DANG SPORTS MASCOT

 

Yeah, because the Pilgrims and the Redmen are the same thing. Give me a break.

[adamb0719]

The University of Northern Colorado intramural basketball team that has come to be known as The Fightin' Whities started out with the name Native Pride. When team members picked a mascot, they chose a caucasian man in a suit and called themselves The Fightin' Whites. After word spread around campus, the name evolved into The Fightin' Whities.

 

Does anyone remember when this happened? Any opinions on this?

[erik316wttn]

I'm white and I thought it was a riot.

 

But, I'm of the white race. I am the oppressor of every single race, and being as such, I cannot be subject to racism. :roll:

 

And what about team names like "The Minutemen?" That's a group of people too.

[dougdescenzo]

Yeah, because the Pilgrims and the Redmen are the same thing. Give me a break.

 

It is not the same, and i agree that that the names Redmen and Redskins are offensive. It is, however, the same as Braves, Chiefs, Warriors etc as they describe a sect of Native Americans as does the nickame Concord Minutemen describe a sect of white Americans.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

that's not the argument. this wildcat thing, i mean, if you're serious, wow. indians are human beings. their traditions and beliefs are being lampooned in football games and colleges are making millions of dollars by selling merchandise with pictures of them on it.

 

"yeah, hi there... i'm a member of the seminole tribe, um, my people were brtually killed a couple hundred years ago in what's been argued as genocide by white people."

 

"yeah... um we're sorry about that."

 

"it's cool, i mean, it sucks and all, but yeah. could you just maybe not make my race the name of your football team? just because, you know, we're a really proud people, and we wouldn't want something that we really love and believe in to be thought of as something as irrelevant and silly as a sports team. it's just something we cherish."

 

"yeahhhhhh... no, sorry. we know you're offended, but we're not. i mean, we're white people, we would understand your plight."

 

"drag."

 

The story about my great grandmother was as fictional as that dialogue you just wrote...here in Indiana there are plenty of mascots that are based off of white men such as the Andrean 59ers, Mishawaka Cavemen, Jimtown Jimmies, Floyd Central Highlanders, Plymouth Pilgrims....etc and not once has any discussion been had about replacing those. All have ridiculous mascots who dance around at games as well. Surely there are some relatives of those folks (well save for cavemen) who would be offended you say? I say NO because its A DANG SPORTS MASCOT

 

Yeah, because the Pilgrims and the Redmen are the same thing. Give me a break.

 

I think it's been established that no one approves of demeaning names like Redmen and Redskins. Pilgrims and Illini are basically the same thing.

[hawkeyecub]

IF THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE OFFENDED THAT'S ALL THAT SHOULD MATTER

 

not how many people

 

not whether they themselves are native american

 

not whether the people who established the mascot intended it as a tribute.

 

there are people who are offended. that should be the end.

 

I thought you were doing a pretty good job of making your point and defending your stance until this post above.

 

People are always going to be offended by something. You have to judge it based on how many people are offended, why they're offended and how it is offending them.

You can't just change rulings/laws/traditions/names because someone is offended or there will never be any rulings/laws/traditions/names etc. If there is a legitimate reason for a group of people to be offended, that's one thing.

But if some white guy in California is offended by the nickname "Seminoles" at Florida State, but the tribe itself and the locals of that region aren't offended, you don't change it.

[Coach C]

What really bothers me is how did they come up with this garbage "In the post season" thing. So is the NCAA is hitting them where it hurts.

 

Postseason = big money. It's the surest way to get "compliance".

 

The NCAA is a joke.

[treebird]

IF THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE OFFENDED THAT'S ALL THAT SHOULD MATTER

 

not how many people

 

not whether they themselves are native american

 

not whether the people who established the mascot intended it as a tribute.

 

there are people who are offended. that should be the end.

 

I thought you were doing a pretty good job of making your point and defending your stance until this post above.

 

People are always going to be offended by something. You have to judge it based on how many people are offended, why they're offended and how it is offending them.

You can't just change rulings/laws/traditions/names because someone is offended or there will never be any rulings/laws/traditions/names etc. If there is a legitimate reason for a group of people to be offended, that's one thing.

But if some white guy in California is offended by the nickname "Seminoles" at Florida State, but the tribe itself and the locals of that region aren't offended, you don't change it.

 

so if i tell a racist joke that maligns black people to a bunch of my white friends, it's cool? only people of the given race are allowed to be offended by racism?

[dougdescenzo]

Ray Ratto says it better than i can...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?columnist=ratto_ray&id=2126159

[hawkeyecub]

so if i tell a racist joke that maligns black people to a bunch of my white friends, it's cool? only people of the given race are allowed to be offended by racism?

 

Come on, that's completely different and you should know that. We're talking about the names of collegiate sports teams, not racial jokes. If you can't see the difference in the two situations then this discussion will go nowhere.

 

What about the situation I proposed? The Seminole tribe is proud of Florida State University using it's name and the method of some of the traditions, the locals are proud of the name and the University itself is proud of the tradition involved.

I'm some random white guy in Iowa who writes them a letter because I'm offended by it. Does that give reason for FSU to change their name? No, it's ridiculous. Common sense has to come in to play somewhere here.

 

But you said it doesn't matter how many people are offended or if the group is offended. As long as people are offended, that should be the end of it. That's just wrong.

[snoodmonger]

I'm gonna have to side with Treebeard on this one. From all reports, it's not just a few rabble rousers who are offended; it's a sizable chunk of the Native American population. And if you can't understand why they're offended, well, tough. Most of us aren't in a position to really know, so we should just respect their wishes.

 

As for the "it's a tribute" argument, if they really want to make this stuff a tribute, how about 25% of all merchandise sales goes to improve life on N.A. reservations. I'm sure that kind of tribute might be looked upon more favorably than some 18 year-old white kid from Boca Raton dancing around in an indian suit.

[Coach C]

Florida State University's President slammed the NCAA and is threatening with legal action. Just heard it over the radio.

[dalgreen]

Let's take a look at the names that have been banned by the NCAA. Some I think rightfully so are offensive, but most are not.

 

The only two on the list that I think are offensive are the Carthage College REDMEN and the Southeastern Okie State SAVAGES.

 

You can't possibly tell me that the majority of these schools that are banned are offensive. Even their logos seem pretty harmless and seem to glorify the Native American spirit, etc. This is politcal correctness gone mad

 

Alcorn State BRAVES:

http://sportsevents.net/ncaa/basketball/images/alcorn_state_braves.jpg

Central Michigan CHIPPEWAS:

http://www.covers.com/images/data/logos/ncf/cmich.gif

FSU SEMINOLES

http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~hjm0585/nole.GIF

Utah UTES

http://www.kall910.com/images/cow_utes.jpg

Arkansas State INDIANS

http://www.allsportsmarket.com/Images/Logos/FAKS.gif

Illinois ILLINI

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/ncaaf/teams/1/80x60/iic.gif

Catawba INDIANS

http://www.indianhuddle.com/images/catawba_arrowhead_logo.gif

Mississippi College CHOCTAWS

http://www.mc.edu/images/logos/mcarrow.gif

North Dakota FIGHTING SIOUX

http://www.und.edu/dept/soc/Staples/web_assets/pics/sioux.gif

 

Who in the world deemed you judge? How many Native Americans do you know that look like these logos? How about putting it up to a vote of full blood Native Americans? They won't. YOu know why? Because schools and professional teams know the nicknames would get shot down. It's amazing that one people can tell another people what is and what isn't offensive. I wonder what Irish people would say if at halftime of Notre Dame games the leprechaun did an Irish dance, got drunk and then got into a fight? I'm an Illinois alum, and I hate Chief Illiniwek. I know of no Native Americans who look like him or dance like him, and it's even more absurd that a white guy with paint on his face depicts him.

[dalgreen]

I'm gonna have to side with Treebeard on this one. From all reports, it's not just a few rabble rousers who are offended; it's a sizable chunk of the Native American population. And if you can't understand why they're offended, well, tough. Most of us aren't in a position to really know, so we should just respect their wishes.

 

As for the "it's a tribute" argument, if they really want to make this stuff a tribute, how about 25% of all merchandise sales goes to improve life on N.A. reservations. I'm sure that kind of tribute might be looked upon more favorably than some 18 year-old white kid from Boca Raton dancing around in an indian suit.

 

It's a tribute argument is hogwash. In this country when you want to honor or pay tribute to a people you build a museum in their honor. But, of course, the people defending this "tribute" would never visit the museum which makes their argument moot.

 

At least FSU got the permission from the Seminole tribe for its logo and use of the Seminole. Most colleges and sports teams don't because they know they wouldn't get permission. I generally don't like the NCAA, but I agree with this decision.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Stealing from Ray Ratto, but for those who agree with the decision, what do you think about PETA campaigning against animal names? What about church groups or anti-church groups that want Demons, Devils, Friars, Saints, or Crusaders taken down?

[dalgreen]

Stealing from Ray Ratto, but for those who agree with the decision, what do you think about PETA campaigning against animal names? What about church groups or anti-church groups that want Demons, Devils, Friars, Saints, or Crusaders taken down?

 

Yeah, animals are really crying out. I have never even heard PETA say the LSU Tigers is an offensive name. I hate this argument because it doesn't make sense. I would bet if schools and professional teams simply used the names without having the mascots/logos you wouldn't have as many people offended.

[hawkeyecub]

Stealing from Ray Ratto, but for those who agree with the decision, what do you think about PETA campaigning against animal names? What about church groups or anti-church groups that want Demons, Devils, Friars, Saints, or Crusaders taken down?

 

Exactly, and that's where my previous point comes up in regards to Treebeard's post.

 

If you change names because someone somewhere is offended, there will be no nicknames left. If a tribe or group of people is being degraded or the majority of that group finds it's usage offensive, that's one thing. There are ways of solving those problems without upsetting everyone and still keeping some tradition.

But if some random white guy in Iowa finds Seminoles offensive, while the tribe, university, locals, etc. don't, then you don't change it.

 

Common sense has to come into play at some point.

[dalgreen]

Stealing from Ray Ratto, but for those who agree with the decision, what do you think about PETA campaigning against animal names? What about church groups or anti-church groups that want Demons, Devils, Friars, Saints, or Crusaders taken down?

 

Exactly, and that's where my previous point comes up in regards to Treebeard's post.

 

If you change names because someone somewhere is offended, there will be no nicknames left. If a tribe or group of people is being degraded or the majority of that group finds it's usage offensive, that's one thing. There are ways of solving those problems without upsetting everyone and still keeping some tradition.

But if some random white guy in Iowa finds Seminoles offensive, while the tribe, university, locals, etc. don't, then you don't change it.

 

Common sense has to come into play at some point.

 

I still have never, ever heard anyone offended by the use of the name Tigers, Bears, Wildcats, etc. Nor have I heard anyone say they're offended by Saints, Friars, etc. That's just another weak argument used by those who refuse to try to understand the feelings of others. By the way, we're generally talking about state funded schools, where no Native Americans were even at the table when the nicknames were thought up. At Notre Dame and Providence (Friars) I bet there were Irish and Catholics at the respective schools' tables.

[TruffleShuffle]

My personal opinion is that it's not a tribute to the group so much as it is something that identifies with the region you're located in. I also think Treebeard's point is somewhat valid... we might not necessarily understand why people are offended, but if a large portion of the particular tribe or culture is offended then you have to accept that they probably have pretty good reason.

 

I also agree that a much better way to pay tribute to the Native Americans would be to give them a cut of the sports team's merchandise, helping out people who are living in the worst of conditions on reservations. Don't name a team after a tribe in "tribute" and then watch your administration get rich off the name while the people you're supposedly honoring are living in abject poverty.

 

Another point that nobody has brought up is that most of these mascots, logos or names depict Native Americans as a warlike people. Look at the logos above. Most have an arrowhead in them. The Atlanta Braves do the tomahawk chop. The Florida State Seminole rides around with a spear in his hand. It doesn't portray the positive aspects of Native American culture; it portrays the warlike imagery, which is what white men recognized back in the old days, when most of the contact they had with Native Americans was through battle. It's like the "24" criticism by Muslim and Arab-American groups. If Muslims were being shown in other dramas and sitcoms as productive members of society, it would be less offensive. But because we only seem to see Arabs on TV when there's terrorism involved, it projects a negative image.

[OleMissCub]

All of this begs the question: why were these schools named Choctaws, Utes, Seminoles, Illini in the first place? If not for tribute then what. I equate a tribute as being the same thing as naming them because they once lived in the area of the school. People seem to think "tribute" means it is some sort of glorified honoring of them. When I think of tribute as far as this is concerned I think of the regional distinctions. Choctaws lived in central Mississippi and this is where MC is located. The Seminoles lived in central and northern florida, this is where FSU is located, the Utes where in present day Utah.

 

And as far as the argument about them having logos that are warlike. Well, generally speaking mascots are supposed to be fierce. Most schools with animals try and be fierce: panthers, cougars, bears, lions, etc. The Rebels, Minutemen, and Volunteers have their rifles, the Trojans and Spartans have their swords the Indian mascots have their tomahawks. At least that's how I see it. And I know what you all will say "this furthers the racial sterotypes that they were cruel, bla bla" Well, a school called the "Savages" certainly does that. But I don't think a Tomahawk Chop promotes a stereotype. Does the firing of Cannons at some schools such as the Vols and Rebels further the stereotype that the particular group represented are violent? I honestly don't think that a person will look at the Tomahawk chop and go "oh gosh! I better watch out for Indians, they might hit me with a tomahawk" and if they do, well then, they are just idiots.

 

Disclaimer for Treebeard: Sorry if any of the words i've used in this diatribe have offended your sensibilities. I know that using the word "idiots" may offend actual idiots. Sorry.

[TruffleShuffle]

This is absolutely retarted. Political correctness at an insane level.

 

describing things as [expletive] certainly isn't politically correct on any level. i wish you wouldn't do that.

 

Why are you always so high and mighty? Unbelievable.

 

Retarted according to websters can also mean "To cause to move or proceed slowly; delay or impede." I'll use whatever words I please, I don't need you or any other PC police on my case. If people are allowed to preach hatred in this country and incite violence according to the first amendment then I damn well can use the word "retarted"

 

You can say whatever you want, as long as you understand that people are hurt by it. Let's not pretend that you meant the word "[expletive]" to mean anything but "stupid" or "dumb" above.

 

I coach two Special Olympics sports and have done so for a few years now. Special Olympics has, since its inception, been described as an athletic organization for mentally [expletive] people. I believe last year, the mission statement was changed so that it serves "intellectually disabled" people. Call it excessively PC or whatever you like, but the reason it was done was because of the athletes' perceptions of the word "[expletive]." You used it above in a negative sense - that this discussion is stupid. Almost universally it's used as an insult or a put-down: "Why are you acting so [expletive]?" "Don't be such a [expletive]." "Why do I have to do this homework, it's [expletive]."

 

The fact is, a lot of mentally [expletive] people have emotional problems and low self-esteem relating to their conditions. When a word that has been used to classify them (for school, medical purposes, Special Olympics, etc.) is constantly used as an insult, it's pretty demoralizing. So feel free to keep using "[expletive]" in the way that you did above, but hopefully at least from now on you will understand the way that it hurts some people.

 

(btw the word is retarded, not retarted)

[OleMissCub]

Truffle,

 

yes yes, I know. I misspelled [expletive]. I was never a great speller.

 

Second, of COURSE I didn't mean to make fun of mentally challenged people. My god, i'm not that coarse. Saying something is "[expletive]" is common vernacular the last time I checked. It's comparable to saying "crazy" or "stupid". And I know what you mean about the Special Olympics. I've done miracle league baseball games several times. In College one month I worked at Camp Barnabas in Missouri which is a summer camp for mentally and physically handicapped people and I have NOTHING but great respect for them. I just think johnny needlessly pulled out the PC police on me. He knew what I meant.

[TruffleShuffle]

Truffle,

 

yes yes, I know. I misspelled [expletive]. I was never a great speller.

 

Second, of COURSE I didn't mean to make fun of mentally challenged people. My god, i'm not that coarse. Saying something is "[expletive]" is common vernacular the last time I checked. It's comparable to saying "crazy" or "stupid". And I know what you mean about the Special Olympics. I've done miracle league baseball games several times. In College one month I worked at Camp Barnabas in Missouri which is a summer camp for mentally and physically handicapped people and I have NOTHING but great respect for them. I just think johnny needlessly pulled out the PC police on me. He knew what I meant.

 

I get that, and it's become common vernacular, but unfortunately it also affects people in a negative way. I used to say it in the way that most people say it before I started helping with S.O., but I stopped pretty soon after that. For one thing, I don't want to be at Summer Games or even swim practice surrounded by athletes and use the word in a way that is insulting to people. And also, I have been around athletes when someone nearby said "[expletive]" to mean "stupid", and have seen that they don't like it. I can say something is asinine or ridiculous without using a word that can hurt people, so I dropped it from my vocabulary. People who are mentally [expletive] shouldn't feel bad about being something that's beyond their control. I daresay if white people were a minority and the word "white" came to mean "stupid", myself and other white people would come to feel kind of bad about ourselves.

[OleMissCub]

I fear friends that one day, some of our beloved sports teams with offensive names will become generic boring names....CASE IN POINT....

 

THE MONTGOMERY BISCUITS

 

http://www.starstruck.com/images/P0067997.jpg

 

A biscuit with a stick of butter as a tongue is absolutely terrifying.

[rocket]

I fear friends that one day, some of our beloved sports teams with offensive names will become generic boring names....CASE IN POINT....

 

THE MONTGOMERY BISCUITS

 

http://www.starstruck.com/images/P0067997.jpg

 

A biscuit with a stick of butter as a tongue is absolutely terrifying.

 

minor league teams aren't supposed to be scary