International shenanigans in Atlanta?

[javy knows my name]

 

Eh, I'm honestly not that sure about that. This is MLB coming down super hard on a team being super stupid. Coppolella and the gang were really stupid and brazen. Trying to package guys from different classes, including a year you're under the penalty? I think there's a wink-wink, nudge-nudge to how things get done in that market, but the Braves went a bit too far, plus they were stupid with hiding things. And trying to do a package deal with a 14 year old? They were just too brazen and too dumb. On top of that, Coppolella was hated by the rest of the league. If it were someone else, I honestly doubt the penalty would have been as harsh. He just pissed everyone off, by being greedy. And then by being stupid.

 

I think all this does is helps get rid of the buscones and makes teams cover their tracks a bit better.

 

So this is the closest I can find as far as an explanation of what the braves actually did. Did they basically just spend a ton more money than they were allowed under the CBA? What are some of the similar things that teams like the Cubs have likely done to circumvent the rules, but less "brazenly?"

 

 

The stuff that's illegal that all teams actually trying down there do.....They'll make agreements with 14 and 15 year olds. They'll even package players together, to help pay the buscone(that's the players trainer) and to get a guy or two at a lesser price that fits your budget. I'm sure they'll give additional " gifts" too, houses and cars, etc, that are untraceable.

 

If you're going to package players together though...its ridiculous to expect it to slide, when you're getting guys worthy of 500k to a million dollar type of bonuses......For the 300k max, by funneling money thru the lesser players or buscone. Especially, when you're trying to package guys that aren't even in the same draft class. Or start packaging guys that are still two years out from signing. They were taking too much advantage. Its one thing to get a player or two into your class every once in a while, that's kind of shady. Its another thing to do it as often as possible, which is basically what the Braves were doing. And they weren't even good at hiding it. Honestly, I think most teams can still get away with these things. Because they're not insanely greedy about how often they go to that well......

 

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense! That whole packaging players thing just sounds like amateur hour. Our FO can cheat way better than that.

[davell]

 

So this is the closest I can find as far as an explanation of what the braves actually did. Did they basically just spend a ton more money than they were allowed under the CBA? What are some of the similar things that teams like the Cubs have likely done to circumvent the rules, but less "brazenly?"

 

 

The stuff that's illegal that all teams actually trying down there do.....They'll make agreements with 14 and 15 year olds. They'll even package players together, to help pay the buscone(that's the players trainer) and to get a guy or two at a lesser price that fits your budget. I'm sure they'll give additional " gifts" too, houses and cars, etc, that are untraceable.

 

If you're going to package players together though...its ridiculous to expect it to slide, when you're getting guys worthy of 500k to a million dollar type of bonuses......For the 300k max, by funneling money thru the lesser players or buscone. Especially, when you're trying to package guys that aren't even in the same draft class. Or start packaging guys that are still two years out from signing. They were taking too much advantage. Its one thing to get a player or two into your class every once in a while, that's kind of shady. Its another thing to do it as often as possible, which is basically what the Braves were doing. And they weren't even good at hiding it. Honestly, I think most teams can still get away with these things. Because they're not insanely greedy about how often they go to that well......

 

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense! That whole packaging players thing just sounds like amateur hour. Our FO can cheat way better than that.

 

Oh, I'm sure we've packaged guys before. Henderson and Herson Perez are brothers. One was highly thought of, one wasn't. The older one(18 or so, I think) still got a relatively decent bonus, that didn't make sense. That money likely went to something other than him, in my mind, at least.

 

The difference though, is we weren't packaging top 30 in the class types, but only showing them getting 300k, like the Red Sox did. Or make things stupid complicated, like combining multiple classes into a package, like the Braves. But, you're right, it was amateur hour, with those guys doing it.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Well, now that a lifetime ban is in the cards you can bet that it won’t be a common thing anymore.

 

Eh, I'm honestly not that sure about that. This is MLB coming down super hard on a team being super stupid. Coppolella and the gang were really stupid and brazen. Trying to package guys from different classes, including a year you're under the penalty? I think there's a wink-wink, nudge-nudge to how things get done in that market, but the Braves went a bit too far, plus they were stupid with hiding things. And trying to do a package deal with a 14 year old? They were just too brazen and too dumb. On top of that, Coppolella was hated by the rest of the league. If it were someone else, I honestly doubt the penalty would have been as harsh. He just pissed everyone off, by being greedy. And then by being stupid.

 

I think all this does is helps get rid of the buscones and makes teams cover their tracks a bit better.

 

So this is the closest I can find as far as an explanation of what the braves actually did. Did they basically just spend a ton more money than they were allowed under the CBA? What are some of the similar things that teams like the Cubs have likely done to circumvent the rules, but less "brazenly?"

 

The Cubs are probably doing package deals in Mexico. Most all teams are in the Dominican and Venezuela. The Red Sox were busted last year for it.

 

[tweet]

[/tweet]

 

Passan's article has more details: https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb-hammers-atlanta-braves-declaring-12-minor-league-players-free-agents-201314625.html

 

MLB determined the Braves had broken rules – the most severe of which was the packaging of signing bonuses – in the 2016-17 and 2017-18 international signing periods. Nine players from the Braves’ 2016-17 signing class, the majority of whom received bonuses in excess of $1 million, will be declared free agents, as will three players from the most recent class. Atlanta also will lose a draft pick next June for trying to induce a player this year with off-the-books perks.

 

...

 

As the investigation into the Braves unfolded, executives around baseball agreed that other teams disregard the rules in similar fashion to Atlanta. The Braves were simply the ones caught.

[DonnieD]

Well, now that a lifetime ban is in the cards you can bet that it won’t be a common thing anymore.

 

Eh, I'm honestly not that sure about that. This is MLB coming down super hard on a team being super stupid. Coppolella and the gang were really stupid and brazen. Trying to package guys from different classes, including a year you're under the penalty? I think there's a wink-wink, nudge-nudge to how things get done in that market, but the Braves went a bit too far, plus they were stupid with hiding things. And trying to do a package deal with a 14 year old? They were just too brazen and too dumb. On top of that, Coppolella was hated by the rest of the league. If it were someone else, I honestly doubt the penalty would have been as harsh. He just pissed everyone off, by being greedy. And then by being stupid.

 

I think all this does is helps get rid of the buscones and makes teams cover their tracks a bit better.

Now that the precedent has been set, teams would be STUPID to even try it. Packaging bonuses can lead to a lifetime ban. You can’t do it for an impact guy because it would be obvious. Why would you take the risk for a non-top 30 guy when the chances they will even be major leaguers is slim? Plus as dirty as international markets are, you could have buscones bribing you not to dish dirt to MLB, that could suddenly be more profitable than peddling prospects. If I’m Theo Epstein especially, why would I risk a lifetime ban, tens of millions in future income, and no HOF induction (that is certainly coming) so I can get a few marginal prospects that have a very slight chance of becoming an impact player.

 

If the organization can be out $15M in bonuses plus the personnel penalties, I could see a 16 year old bonus guy who flames out by age 18 and has only pocketed a total of $600k (but the team reported $300K) demanding more money not to talk.

 

There is suddenly too much risk for too little reward in my opinion, this stuff will be a thing of the past. The large majority of teams won’t participate so if a team does decide to be shady, it will stand out since it won’t be SOP anymore and it won’t blend in with what everyone is doing.

[Gmoney08]

Its clear there needs to be an IFA draft.

 

Would it be so terrible to include IFAs in the normal amateur draft?

 

The 16 year old craziness obviously complicates things. You can draft a 16 year old from Latin America but not a Bryce Harper type here.

 

There is also the decision making aspect of whether to draft the potential of a 16 year old or a 21 year old college pitcher.

[davell]

Well, now that a lifetime ban is in the cards you can bet that it won’t be a common thing anymore.

 

Eh, I'm honestly not that sure about that. This is MLB coming down super hard on a team being super stupid. Coppolella and the gang were really stupid and brazen. Trying to package guys from different classes, including a year you're under the penalty? I think there's a wink-wink, nudge-nudge to how things get done in that market, but the Braves went a bit too far, plus they were stupid with hiding things. And trying to do a package deal with a 14 year old? They were just too brazen and too dumb. On top of that, Coppolella was hated by the rest of the league. If it were someone else, I honestly doubt the penalty would have been as harsh. He just pissed everyone off, by being greedy. And then by being stupid.

 

I think all this does is helps get rid of the buscones and makes teams cover their tracks a bit better.

Now that the precedent has been set, teams would be STUPID to even try it. Packaging bonuses can lead to a lifetime ban. You can’t do it for an impact guy because it would be obvious. Why would you take the risk for a non-top 30 guy when the chances they will even be major leaguers is slim? Plus as dirty as international markets are, you could have buscones bribing you not to dish dirt to MLB, that could suddenly be more profitable than peddling prospects. If I’m Theo Epstein especially, why would I risk a lifetime ban, tens of millions in future income, and no HOF induction (that is certainly coming) so I can get a few marginal prospects that have a very slight chance of becoming an impact player.

 

If the organization can be out $15M in bonuses plus the personnel penalties, I could see a 16 year old bonus guy who flames out by age 18 and has only pocketed a total of $600k (but the team reported $300K) demanding more money not to talk.

 

There is suddenly too much risk for too little reward in my opinion, this stuff will be a thing of the past. The large majority of teams won’t participate so if a team does decide to be shady, it will stand out since it won’t be SOP anymore and it won’t blend in with what everyone is doing.

 

 

Those are great points. But, I don't see this stopping very soon. Teams have to deal with the buscones. Those deals will still happen because of that. Its just part of doing business down there. If MLB could figure out a way to install a draft, the buscones would be gone. But those guys take these kids under their wings sometimes at 8, 9, 10 years old, 13 or 14 at the latest and most of them are not going to throw them into some MLB Academy and lose their potential income. Its why the draft has been so slow to develop down there.

 

I think MLB knows that there's going to be SOME shadiness down there, but just want it curbed as much as possible. Until they can find their way into instituting a draft. Again, to me, the Braves got way too ambitious and the guy leading the charge was widely hated, to begin with. That's why they came down on them, in my eyes.

 

It wouldn't shock me in the least if there's been or will be meetings of "Hey, just don't get too stupid" down there.

 

Until you can eliminate the business, SOME stuff is going to go on. Eliminating them in the process of these Braves guys hitting the market a second time, is a slow start towards finding a way to get rid of them completely, in my eyes. Its just not something that happens overnight.

[jersey cubs fan]

Its clear there needs to be an IFA draft.

 

Would it be so terrible to include IFAs in the normal amateur draft?

 

The 16 year old craziness obviously complicates things. You can draft a 16 year old from Latin America but not a Bryce Harper type here.

 

There is also the decision making aspect of whether to draft the potential of a 16 year old or a 21 year old college pitcher.

The draft screws over players. In the US, this results in some guys choosing to take a college scholarship instead of turning pro. In latin american this will do nothing but screw more players.

 

It's clear they need to do away with cost suppressing rules and allow teams to sign prospects when they want.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Its clear there needs to be an IFA draft.

 

Would it be so terrible to include IFAs in the normal amateur draft?

 

The 16 year old craziness obviously complicates things. You can draft a 16 year old from Latin America but not a Bryce Harper type here.

 

There is also the decision making aspect of whether to draft the potential of a 16 year old or a 21 year old college pitcher.

The draft screws over players. In the US, this results in some guys choosing to take a college scholarship instead of turning pro. In latin american this will do nothing but screw more players.

 

It's clear they need to do away with cost suppressing rules and allow teams to sign prospects when they want.

 

Exactly. A lot of these problems would be alleviated if the owners weren't trying to save money at every corner, at the expense of the players who actually bring in MLB's profits.

[Regular Show]

Its clear there needs to be an IFA draft.

 

Would it be so terrible to include IFAs in the normal amateur draft?

 

The 16 year old craziness obviously complicates things. You can draft a 16 year old from Latin America but not a Bryce Harper type here.

 

There is also the decision making aspect of whether to draft the potential of a 16 year old or a 21 year old college pitcher.

The draft screws over players. In the US, this results in some guys choosing to take a college scholarship instead of turning pro. In latin american this will do nothing but screw more players.

 

It's clear they need to do away with cost suppressing rules and allow teams to sign prospects when they want.

 

Exactly. A lot of these problems would be alleviated if the owners weren't trying to save money at every corner, at the expense of the players who actually bring in MLB's profits.

 

I completely agree with you Raisin, but the Player's Union is also partially to blame for this shitty situation. They were okay with screwing over amateur players (Domestic and International) in CBA discussions if that meant more money was being funneled towards established MLB players. MLB owners were pushing hard for an International Draft, and it didn't happen because so many foreign players were outraged and demanded that it not be included.

 

PS: I just wanted to make clear that I am NOT in favor of an International Draft either. That would create many more problems...

[Guancous]

[biittner77]

 

Love it

 

Which of these players is the most desirable? Maitan woulda coulda shoulda been the easy answer but he showed up fat.

 

LIVAN SOTO