Bulls offseason

[David]

I'll try. But, we aren't going to agree. I prefer any chance at being great over mediocrity. You've said you'd prefer a .500 team to seeing some 15 win years.

 

 

Its about looking forward obviously. You don't need me to tell you that. I'm not going to use true math, because I don't think its as easy as looking at 10-15 years worth of picks and deciding the next time period is going to produce the same.....

 

With the new CBA, it makes it very hard to see a lot of major FA leaving their original franchise, before their true primes are over. You've got groups of players jumping into super teams. That's how you're going to win now

 

The city of Chicago isn't going to help, in that aspect. It never has in basketball. So, you're left with Jimmy. Who's a top 15ish player in the league. Sorry, he's not good enough to get guys coming to him. He's going to have to follow someone else around. He'll realize this in 2 seasons too. And leave this .500ish team for greener pastures. And then, you're stuck with this same rebuild, minus ANY assets to start out with.....

 

Or....You resign a 30 year old to a 200 mill contract and watch him decline, while not ever being able to get a true 2nd guy into town, much less a third, and you watch absolute mediocrity turn into sub .500 and this lasts for his entire next 7 years with a declining situation you're still going to have to dig out of after all of that....

 

Can you somehow add the players thru FA, to build WITH Jimmy? Sure. But, there's probably a lesser chance of that happening than the Bulls rebuilding and winning a title inside 7 years......

 

Why? Because no one wants to play here. Its just true. This organization has a horrible rep inside NBA circles. And its not going to be helped by Jimmy recruiting.....He's just not good enough.

 

So, what're the options, if you tank?

 

You're creating assets. You're getting tradable pieces. Outside of Jimmy, we don't have that. If you wanted to, you could trade Jimmy, suck for 2 years, and have enough assets to go back into the deep end of the pool, if you truly wanted to.....

 

You'd have what you got for him, two years of high picks not related to him, and future picks that are probably extremely high too....That alone could net you a couple of very high end pieces and you'd have cap room and maybe even a few other assets you developed during those years, that are capable players of some semblance....

 

Does that mean you can't totally whiff on picks? Sure. But, its hard to completely whiff during that small amount of time too.

 

You can just do a quick reset and see if the landscape allows for more than what it does currently. To me, that's rushing things, most likely. But, you can cash your chips in at any stage and go for it again.

 

Or you can develop your guys and slow play things obviously. But, the point is creating assets. You're sitting here with ONE right now. And no real cap space either.

 

Yeah, you'll suck if you trade him. But, you'll quickly have more assets than what you've got now. And flexibility on top of that. That leads to real possibilities. I'll take those small chances of being great, over being average every day of the week.

 

And if you keep Jimmy, that's what you are. And in two years, he's going to leave and you're in WORSE shape than you are currently, or you're Jim Hendry 2009 era, trying to cobble out a contender, with no elite talent and no real money to spend, for Jimmy's entire next deal.

 

 

i get where you're coming from with a lot of this. i just don't agree that it is a clear cut better option toward reaching true title contention nor do i think it's absolutely a better path toward being very good. it is definitely a better path toward being very bad, though.

 

the "nobody wants to play here" narrative is so vastly overstated

 

good players have and will come here. we've had great players almost come here. yeah, yeah, "almost doesn't count," but there is no doubt in my mind those guys had serious interest. chicago isn't horsefeathering oklahoma city and players aren't not coming here because jordan and pippen didn't like jerry krause. i mean, hell, this organization is loyal to its ex players to a fault.

 

in the end, though, they can only pick one team. tracy mcgrady picked orlando (pretty sure he since stated he regretted that). if miami couldn't make the cap thing happen, who knows where lebron ends up. take what you will about what wade said after signing here, but he has indicated there was talk of making the 2010 move happen here. carmelo wound up (thankfully, in retrospect) deciding that NY and more money was more attractive.

 

i do think that awkward goofy ass gar forman probably doesn't help us, nor does the clown show coach we have, but hoiberg can be fired, and butler has been making connections as his stature has grown in the league.

[SpongeWorthy]

Your odds in basketball of having your team be in true championship contention in your entire lifetime are pretty low.

 

Good sport, definitely not completely broken.

 

like 10 total teams have ever won a world cup or a premier league title

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Your odds in basketball of having your team be in true championship contention in your entire lifetime are pretty low.

 

Good sport, definitely not completely broken.

 

like 10 total teams have ever won a world cup or a premier league title

 

If you're making a comparison to the premier league then the point is kinda made already.

[SpongeWorthy]

someone start pumping some sunshine in here and tell me how we're gonna end up with a butler/kyrie/brow super team!!

[UMFan83]

Your odds in basketball of having your team be in true championship contention in your entire lifetime are pretty low.

 

Good sport, definitely not completely broken.

 

like 10 total teams have ever won a world cup or a premier league title

 

Haha that's actually an interesting point because in sports like soccer, college football and college basketball you can have rewarding seasons without having a shot at winning a title whether the goal is to get promoted to top league, make the knockout rounds in regional or world cup, make the sweet 16, make a BCS bowl game, etc. And I'm totally on board with those things...I greatly enjoyed Michigan making a run to the sweet 16 this year and winning BTT, etc. But for some reason that does not translate for me to the NBA and I'm not sure why.

[davell]

I'll try. But, we aren't going to agree. I prefer any chance at being great over mediocrity. You've said you'd prefer a .500 team to seeing some 15 win years.

 

 

Its about looking forward obviously. You don't need me to tell you that. I'm not going to use true math, because I don't think its as easy as looking at 10-15 years worth of picks and deciding the next time period is going to produce the same.....

 

With the new CBA, it makes it very hard to see a lot of major FA leaving their original franchise, before their true primes are over. You've got groups of players jumping into super teams. That's how you're going to win now

 

The city of Chicago isn't going to help, in that aspect. It never has in basketball. So, you're left with Jimmy. Who's a top 15ish player in the league. Sorry, he's not good enough to get guys coming to him. He's going to have to follow someone else around. He'll realize this in 2 seasons too. And leave this .500ish team for greener pastures. And then, you're stuck with this same rebuild, minus ANY assets to start out with.....

 

Or....You resign a 30 year old to a 200 mill contract and watch him decline, while not ever being able to get a true 2nd guy into town, much less a third, and you watch absolute mediocrity turn into sub .500 and this lasts for his entire next 7 years with a declining situation you're still going to have to dig out of after all of that....

 

Can you somehow add the players thru FA, to build WITH Jimmy? Sure. But, there's probably a lesser chance of that happening than the Bulls rebuilding and winning a title inside 7 years......

 

Why? Because no one wants to play here. Its just true. This organization has a horrible rep inside NBA circles. And its not going to be helped by Jimmy recruiting.....He's just not good enough.

 

So, what're the options, if you tank?

 

You're creating assets. You're getting tradable pieces. Outside of Jimmy, we don't have that. If you wanted to, you could trade Jimmy, suck for 2 years, and have enough assets to go back into the deep end of the pool, if you truly wanted to.....

 

You'd have what you got for him, two years of high picks not related to him, and future picks that are probably extremely high too....That alone could net you a couple of very high end pieces and you'd have cap room and maybe even a few other assets you developed during those years, that are capable players of some semblance....

 

Does that mean you can't totally whiff on picks? Sure. But, its hard to completely whiff during that small amount of time too.

 

You can just do a quick reset and see if the landscape allows for more than what it does currently. To me, that's rushing things, most likely. But, you can cash your chips in at any stage and go for it again.

 

Or you can develop your guys and slow play things obviously. But, the point is creating assets. You're sitting here with ONE right now. And no real cap space either.

 

Yeah, you'll suck if you trade him. But, you'll quickly have more assets than what you've got now. And flexibility on top of that. That leads to real possibilities. I'll take those small chances of being great, over being average every day of the week.

 

And if you keep Jimmy, that's what you are. And in two years, he's going to leave and you're in WORSE shape than you are currently, or you're Jim Hendry 2009 era, trying to cobble out a contender, with no elite talent and no real money to spend, for Jimmy's entire next deal.

 

 

i get where you're coming from with a lot of this. i just don't agree that it is a clear cut better option toward reaching true title contention nor do i think it's absolutely a better path toward being very good. it is definitely a better path toward being very bad, though.

 

the "nobody wants to play here" narrative is so vastly overstated

 

good players have and will come here. we've had great players almost come here. yeah, yeah, "almost doesn't count," but there is no doubt in my mind those guys had serious interest. chicago isn't horsefeathering oklahoma city and players aren't not coming here because jordan and pippen didn't like jerry krause. i mean, hell, this organization is loyal to its ex players to a fault.

 

in the end, though, they can only pick one team. tracy mcgrady picked orlando (pretty sure he since stated he regretted that). if miami couldn't make the cap thing happen, who knows where lebron ends up. take what you will about what wade said after signing here, but he has indicated there was talk of making the 2010 move happen here. carmelo wound up (thankfully, in retrospect) deciding that NY and more money was more attractive.

 

i do think that awkward goofy ass gar forman probably doesn't help us, nor does the clown show coach we have, but hoiberg can be fired, and butler has been making connections as his stature has grown in the league.

 

Again, my main point though, is time frame....We're not going to be much improved, if at all, this upcoming season, if we keep Jimmy. I know you know that.

 

Do you honestly trust that Jimmy won't get frustrated and just say horsefeathers it? He's petulant as it is. He's had issues with Thibs and Hoiberg already. I can already see him asking to be dealt next year, where you'll get less than now....Especially when the FO strikes out in FA on Lebrons class.....Or he plays out the year and leaves us with nothing. I'd go as far as to say I EXPECT one of these scenarios, to him even staying here longterm.

 

But again, if he DOES stay, his contract and declining skills aren't going to help land us anything elite either.

 

Can they add more Boozer level FA? Sure. They probably will. But, that's not getting you anywhere.

 

I get that there's only a very select few teams going into a year thinking title.....I realize how hard it is to become one of them. But, I think there's a much better chance of it coming from a rebuild, than it does from building with Jimmy. And that's what I'm interested in. There's no joy watching a 45, even 50 win team, on my end, if I can't see light at the end of the tunnel. I'd much rather dream on the future and have hope, than be boxed in.

 

You've stated you are fine with watching average teams, not wanting to endure the 15 win seasons again.....

 

I think you're going to endure them. Not because of a trade. But because he'll leave in 2 years. And then you're starting from scratch, instead of having a few assets.

 

To me, keeping him puts everything into the Lebron FA class....You confident in these idiots to accomplish anything? I'm certainly not. And if they fail, are you confident Jimmy sticks it out? I'm certainly not. And then, if he does.....Are you confident he's elite into his 30's? I'm certainly not.

[David]

i've never said i'm fine with watching .500 or average teams, I'm pretty sure. i'd rather watch them than 15 win teams, sure, but my goal is to become a 55+ win team.

 

and jimmy has somewhat of an old man game. i think he can play at a high level for a while as long as he isn't run into the ground.

[davell]

Maybe the .500 part is me thinking that's what we were heading into last year and you wanting to keep things in place. I think you thought we'd be better last year than what we were. GarPax threw a bunch of horsefeathers against the wall and nothing stuck. I actually morbidly enjoyed a bit of last season, because I like Wade. But, I'd have moved Jimmy last year myself. Anyway, none of this horsefeathers matters.

 

What DOES matter is how you turn this team from .500 to a 55 win team.....Its not happening this off season. Then you're putting your eggs into the Lebron class, where I'm comfortable saying we'll strike out. I get that you're not thinking we will.....We just disagree.

 

With our lead player, our FO, our location, I think moving up 15ish wins is a hell of a lot harder than what I think you must see it as.

[David]

It's moreso that I think moving from 15 to there primarily through the draft is a lot harder than you do.

[davell]

Nah, I'm prepared to wait years lol. I know it won't be easy. I'm just thinking getting a head start on it is a good idea, since we'll be there soon enough anyway.

[WrigleyField 22]

Maybe the .500 part is me thinking that's what we were heading into last year and you wanting to keep things in place. I think you thought we'd be better last year than what we were. GarPax threw a bunch of horsefeathers against the wall and nothing stuck. I actually morbidly enjoyed a bit of last season, because I like Wade. But, I'd have moved Jimmy last year myself. Anyway, none of this horsefeathers matters.

 

What DOES matter is how you turn this team from .500 to a 55 win team.....Its not happening this off season. Then you're putting your eggs into the Lebron class, where I'm comfortable saying we'll strike out. I get that you're not thinking we will.....We just disagree.

 

With our lead player, our FO, our location, I think moving up 15ish wins is a hell of a lot harder than what I think you must see it as.

I know there's been quite a few changes to the CBA in the past few years, but historically speaking, I don't think tank+draft is measurably more effective than other methods of building a championship team. And you seem to think it is.

 

I get your points about timing and stuff, but I think our operating the relative merits of the two options to build.

[davell]

Maybe the .500 part is me thinking that's what we were heading into last year and you wanting to keep things in place. I think you thought we'd be better last year than what we were. GarPax threw a bunch of horsefeathers against the wall and nothing stuck. I actually morbidly enjoyed a bit of last season, because I like Wade. But, I'd have moved Jimmy last year myself. Anyway, none of this horsefeathers matters.

 

What DOES matter is how you turn this team from .500 to a 55 win team.....Its not happening this off season. Then you're putting your eggs into the Lebron class, where I'm comfortable saying we'll strike out. I get that you're not thinking we will.....We just disagree.

 

With our lead player, our FO, our location, I think moving up 15ish wins is a hell of a lot harder than what I think you must see it as.

I know there's been quite a few changes to the CBA in the past few years, but historically speaking, I don't think tank+draft is measurably more effective than other methods of building a championship team. And you seem to think it is.

 

I get your points about timing and stuff, but I think our operating the relative merits of the two options to build.

 

In MOST cases, I agree completely. I'd usually veer towards keep building, than rebuilding. The timing, our current roster, and the current landscape in the NBA push me to rebuild, in this exact case.

[UMFan83]

Looks like Jimmy to Minnesota is done or close for garbage package (Levine/Dunn/7)

[SpongeWorthy]

I'm happy for Butler that he gets to play with Thibs and some legit young talent

[davell]

Looks like Jimmy to Minnesota is done or close for garbage package (Levine/Dunn/7)

 

 

I wanted more picks, but I've always liked LaVine. I think he'll come back just fine. Dunn? I loved him before this year. I guess we still expect a bunch out of him. 7 and 16 will be fun now.

 

Edit oh horsefeathers we gave up 16?

[Andy]

We don't get 16. Minnesota does.

 

What a horsefeathering terrible move

[Cubswin11]

Lavine is garbage, even not factoring in the injury. Pretty underwhelming package. There should be a good player there at 7 though, or be used with 16 to move up.

[17 Seconds]

hahahahahaha horsefeathers you bulls

[Banedon]

Lavine is garbage, even not factoring in the injury. Pretty underwhelming package. There should be a good player there at 7 though, or be used with 16 to move up.

 

We gave up the 16.

[17 Seconds]

i predict a lot of world class loafing from dwyane wade next season

[WrigleyField 22]

So 9 draft spots, 1 year of Lavine (career Per 13.4) and Dunn (8.1 Per and blistering .432 TS% as a rookie- worse than Jerian Grants rookie numbers)

 

I'm not a horsefeathering Bulls fan anymore.

[David]

I'm done.

[UMFan83]

I mean jeez I know I was on team rebuild but this is the worst of the offers I saw out there. Not even a top 5 pick nor did they keep their own pick

[Banedon]

[Splendid Splinter]

If this is all Bulls can get for Butler, PG will only bring back a 2nd rounder for the Pacers. Woof!