THE CC Sabathia

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Here's a big name FA we don't talk nearly enough about due to Yankee fear. Joel Sherman, one of the triers out there in sports journalism, wrote a pretty interesting article on the possibility that the Yankees be better losing CC to the competition:

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/chasing_cc_if_ace_opts_out_yanks_lALLyYUWkj8NrQKHZBZcwJ/0

 

His point applies very well to the Yankees, who really might shy away from going more years more money with him. To me, this only represents opportunity to welcome a truly true ace to the Cubs. This is a guy who has been a high end pitcher since he was 20 years old. He is someone who could legitimately be in a HOF conversation one day. He's someone who thrived in the NL Central when he came over for half a season. He's someone who's admitted to enjoying the NL game, and he's not an idiot with the bat in his hand like most pitchers. At 31 he's still in his prime as a pitcher, and guys like Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay show that an elite talent can thrive well into their 30's (as many have done before tbh), especially in the good 'ol NL.

 

Is there any reason this guy shouldn't be the #2 target behind Pujols amongst all FAs for anyone? He's a legitimately elite pitching talent who'll hit the open market...Any reason not to compete for his services beyond the usual fear that the pitcher has emptied the clip in his arm? The Yankees have been very, very careful with his arm...in 3 years there he's thrown 120+ pitches 7 times...to me he's a ridiculously durable pitcher with a frame and skillset that will allow him to age as well as you can ask a pitcher.

 

Other questions:

 

- Should the Cubs wait for an ace to develop through the system instead? Why?

- If Sabathia isn't the kind of pitcher you go after in FA, who is? Is there a bargain pitcher in FA besides for the injured guy who might come back with some patience and hard work?

- How much easier or harder does having a Sabathia make it to build a rotation?

[Backtobanks]

Everything you say about Sabathia is true, but the contract that he signs will be ridiculous. He's opting out of 4 years and $92 million, so obviously the bidding will start with 5+ years and $125+ million. Also, comparing him to Lee and Halladay ignores the fact that his weight may be an issue as he ages.

[biittner77]

If the spend whatever it takes Yankees are balking at paying Sabathia 5/ 125 +, who else will be bidding?

[17 Seconds]

he's 31 and he's going to cost more than 100 million

 

yea no thanks

[rocket]

9/10 times i do not want to commit a lot of money and years to a pitcher

[Backtobanks]

9/10 times i do not want to commit a lot of money and years to a pitcher

 

Especially if he's 290 lbs. and has pitched almost 1000 innings in the last 4 years.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

9/10 times i do not want to commit a lot of money and years to a pitcher

 

Wouldn't a guy this good be the 1 time out of 10? We're not talking just any pitcher here....We are talking about an elite player and pitcher, which would seem to not be a 9/10 situation, no?

 

His weight is a superfluous issue...1 because he's never ever had an arm problem and 2 he's heavy because he's a huge human being (that 290 sits on a 6'7" frame). He's more LT than G when it comes to athleticism...as we've seen for a decade+ now and NL Central fans were treated for half a season.

Edited October 15, 2011 by KingKongvs.Godzilla

[Derwood]

If they signed CC and Prince, they'd HAVE to expand the home locker room (amirite?)

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

If they signed CC and Prince, they'd HAVE to expand the home locker room (amirite?)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-cT58rgNc

[Backtobanks]

9/10 times i do not want to commit a lot of money and years to a pitcher

 

Wouldn't a guy this good be the 1 time out of 10? We're not talking just any pitcher here....We are talking about an elite player and pitcher, which would seem to not be a 9/10 situation, no?

 

His weight is a superfluous issue...1 because he's never ever had an arm problem and 2 he's heavy because he's a huge human being (that 290 sits on a 6'7" frame). He's more LT than G when it comes to athleticism...as we've seen for a decade+ now and NL Central fans were treated for half a season.

 

I'm not sure his weight is a superfluous issue when you're talking about 4-6 years from now.

[Exile on Waveland]

His weight is [] superfluous

 

You can say that again.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Just to go through the reasons *NOT* to bring in any of the best available talents this offseason:

 

Prince Fielder - Not chiseled from marble. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

Albert Pujols - At whatever his age is he's old. So old that he's only put up a ~.950 OPS over the past two years. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

CC Sabathia - Not chiseled from marble, has thrown alot of pitches and innings. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

Yu Darvish - A few Japanese pitchers before him didn't do as well as many thought. Probably has thrown alot of pitches. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

CJ Wilson - Reliever turned starter = Injury risk. Almost threw an inning after a rain delay. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

Jose Reyes - Injuries. Already have a SS. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

Carlos Beltran - Old. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

 

 

Man oh man how long am I going to have to wait to see a good team field by the Cubs again....all these reasons/excuses not to go after talent. I didn't even include guys like Cuddeyer or Kubel (just no interest at all in bringing either to the NL), or Grady Sizemore (who legitimately might be interesting on the low), Brandon Phillips, Jon Broxton (see Sizemore), or Edwin Jackson.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I'm not sure his weight is a superfluous issue when you're talking about 4-6 years from now.

 

Why? Is he legitimately out of shape or are you just uncomfortable with the number?

 

You'd think his weight would have gotten him when he was heavier and sloppier in his young days (maybe 18-23?) and his joints weren't as developed, no?

 

What if in 4-6 years from now he's already helped the Cubs to a WS or two (the goal of collecting elite talent)?

[dew1679666265]

Wouldn't a guy this good be the 1 time out of 10? We're not talking just any pitcher here....We are talking about an elite player and pitcher, which would seem to not be a 9/10 situation, no?

 

I would look into him if, and only if, we can still get Pujols/Fielder as well. I'm concerned that we couldn't afford Pujols or Fielder at $25-30 per and CC at $24+ per. Wilson at $15-20 per is far more realistic than CC, I think.

 

Also the fact that he's a pitcher who has a ton of wear scares me too, but I've been expecting him to break for 2-3 years now, so maybe he is that one exception. Or maybe he's just been incredibly lucky.

[Backtobanks]

Just to go through the reasons *NOT* to bring in any of the best available talents this offseason:

 

Prince Fielder - Not chiseled from marble. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

Albert Pujols - At whatever his age is he's old. So old that he's only put up a ~.950 OPS over the past two years. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

CC Sabathia - Not chiseled from marble, has thrown alot of pitches and innings. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

Yu Darvish - A few Japanese pitchers before him didn't do as well as many thought. Probably has thrown alot of pitches. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

CJ Wilson - Reliever turned starter = Injury risk. Almost threw an inning after a rain delay. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

Jose Reyes - Injuries. Already have a SS. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

Carlos Beltran - Old. Yankees/Red Sox might get in the way, and therefore we've already lost anyway. Expensive.

 

 

Man oh man how long am I going to have to wait to see a good team field by the Cubs again....all these reasons/excuses not to go after talent. I didn't even include guys like Cuddeyer or Kubel (just no interest at all in bringing either to the NL), or Grady Sizemore (who legitimately might be interesting on the low), Brandon Phillips, Jon Broxton (see Sizemore), or Edwin Jackson.

 

Obviously all of those reasons not to bring in the best talent this offseason revolve around money and long term contracts, both of which have burned the Cubs at this point. I think it's safe to say that the Cubs will be very much in the bidding for Pujols/Fielder and Sabathia/Wilson. Considering the fact that they're stuck with two huge contracts (Zambrano and Soriano) along with Dempster's and the fact that they're not sure of which direction (contending or developing young players) they're going to take for 2012, I think being serious about bidding for a big-time 1B and #1 starter is pretty impressive.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Obviously all of those reasons not to bring in the best talent this offseason revolve around money and long term contracts, both of which have burned the Cubs at this point. I think it's safe to say that the Cubs will be very much in the bidding for Pujols/Fielder and Sabathia/Wilson. Considering the fact that they're stuck with two huge contracts (Zambrano and Soriano) along with Dempster's and the fact that they're not sure of which direction (contending or developing young players) they're going to take for 2012, I think being serious about bidding for a big-time 1B and #1 starter is pretty impressive.

 

That was the little joke I was making...I feel like that fear should only exist to the point that it's acknowledged that there is some risk in giving guys alot of years and money. We're talking about giving money to top of the line guys with little to no statistical flaws or injury history...things guys like Soriano and Zambrano had to burn the Cubs (and really Z's deal was below market anyway, it was stupid because the Cubs worked him hard as a young pitcher and he's never been a fan of fitness). I feel like that risk can be mitigated by who these guys are, what they do for themselves as athletes, and of course building an organization that promotes an atmosphere of constant growth, health, and development for their players.

 

Also, they're stuck with the two huge contracts for 2 years at the longest, if they even keep both guys. I also think you're not giving them enough credit as to what they think they want to do...I think they want to get better in 2012, period...and with the resources the franchises has they can blend youth and veteran talent to build a team (which is how a team should be built anyway).

 

All that said, we seem to agree that the Cubs will target these guys and it'll be fun to see. CC in a Cubs uniform would legitimately be an exciting situation for the franchise...he'd wreck [expletive] here and give the Cubs a horse who can go toe to toe with a machine like Carpenter or Halladay.

[sneakypower]

fat David Wells maintained effectiveness into his 40s

 

i don't know why weight is supposed to be such a big concern for a pitcher, especially when it's easier to have faith in their frame withstanding the strain they'll put on their arm; he'd also provide more value with his bat than most all other NL pitchers

 

i can't really think of many safer bets in pitching for the next 6 years than CC

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

fat David Wells maintained effectiveness into his 40s

 

i don't know why weight is supposed to be such a big concern for a pitcher, especially when it's easier to have faith in their frame withstanding the strain they'll put on their arm; he'd also provide more value with his bat than most all other NL pitchers

 

i can't really think of many safer bets in pitching for the next 6 years than CC

 

I remember reading a few years ago that it's actually a really good thing for a pitcher to have a healthy amount of meat on their bodies. It's got to make some sense...Your body is taking an absolute beating overhand throwing a ball off of elevated ground. I guarantee there are very, very few good, healthy pitchers who rock a 6 pick.

 

Look at Rich Harden...dude was cut as all heck and it did nothing for his durability. Meanwhile CJ Wilson, similar height (6'/6'1"), is built like a fire hydrant and hasn't had an arm injury since '03 or so.

[Backtobanks]

fat David Wells maintained effectiveness into his 40s

 

i don't know why weight is supposed to be such a big concern for a pitcher, especially when it's easier to have faith in their frame withstanding the strain they'll put on their arm; he'd also provide more value with his bat than most all other NL pitchers

 

i can't really think of many safer bets in pitching for the next 6 years than CC

 

I remember reading a few years ago that it's actually a really good thing for a pitcher to have a healthy amount of meat on their bodies. It's got to make some sense...Your body is taking an absolute beating overhand throwing a ball off of elevated ground. I guarantee there are very, very few good, healthy pitchers who rock a 6 pick.

 

Look at Rich Harden...dude was cut as all heck and it did nothing for his durability. Meanwhile CJ Wilson, similar height (6'/6'1"), is built like a fire hydrant and hasn't had an arm injury since '03 or so.

 

 

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. For every "overweight" pitcher that you can name that has been durable for many years there are probably 10 "in shape" pitchers that are durable over many years.

[Guest]

fat David Wells maintained effectiveness into his 40s

 

i don't know why weight is supposed to be such a big concern for a pitcher, especially when it's easier to have faith in their frame withstanding the strain they'll put on their arm; he'd also provide more value with his bat than most all other NL pitchers

 

i can't really think of many safer bets in pitching for the next 6 years than CC

 

I remember reading a few years ago that it's actually a really good thing for a pitcher to have a healthy amount of meat on their bodies. It's got to make some sense...Your body is taking an absolute beating overhand throwing a ball off of elevated ground. I guarantee there are very, very few good, healthy pitchers who rock a 6 pick.

 

Look at Rich Harden...dude was cut as all heck and it did nothing for his durability. Meanwhile CJ Wilson, similar height (6'/6'1"), is built like a fire hydrant and hasn't had an arm injury since '03 or so.

 

 

Not sure what you're trying to imply about Wilson's shape, but the guy works out like a machine and is anything but fat. Probably has one of the lowest body fat percentages among major leaguers.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

fat David Wells maintained effectiveness into his 40s

 

i don't know why weight is supposed to be such a big concern for a pitcher, especially when it's easier to have faith in their frame withstanding the strain they'll put on their arm; he'd also provide more value with his bat than most all other NL pitchers

 

i can't really think of many safer bets in pitching for the next 6 years than CC

 

I remember reading a few years ago that it's actually a really good thing for a pitcher to have a healthy amount of meat on their bodies. It's got to make some sense...Your body is taking an absolute beating overhand throwing a ball off of elevated ground. I guarantee there are very, very few good, healthy pitchers who rock a 6 pick.

 

Look at Rich Harden...dude was cut as all heck and it did nothing for his durability. Meanwhile CJ Wilson, similar height (6'/6'1"), is built like a fire hydrant and hasn't had an arm injury since '03 or so.

 

 

Not sure what you're trying to imply about Wilson's shape, but the guy works out like a machine and is anything but fat. Probably has one of the lowest body fat percentages among major leaguers.

 

I'm implying that it's good to have meat on you and that Wildon owns a very good build for a pitcher. A fire hydrant is a good thing to be built like...they're very stout those things.

[Guest]

fat David Wells maintained effectiveness into his 40s

 

i don't know why weight is supposed to be such a big concern for a pitcher, especially when it's easier to have faith in their frame withstanding the strain they'll put on their arm; he'd also provide more value with his bat than most all other NL pitchers

 

i can't really think of many safer bets in pitching for the next 6 years than CC

 

I remember reading a few years ago that it's actually a really good thing for a pitcher to have a healthy amount of meat on their bodies. It's got to make some sense...Your body is taking an absolute beating overhand throwing a ball off of elevated ground. I guarantee there are very, very few good, healthy pitchers who rock a 6 pick.

 

Look at Rich Harden...dude was cut as all heck and it did nothing for his durability. Meanwhile CJ Wilson, similar height (6'/6'1"), is built like a fire hydrant and hasn't had an arm injury since '03 or so.

 

 

Not sure what you're trying to imply about Wilson's shape, but the guy works out like a machine and is anything but fat. Probably has one of the lowest body fat percentages among major leaguers.

 

I'm implying that it's good to have meat on you and that Wildon owns a very good build for a pitcher. A fire hydrant is a good thing to be built like...they're very stout those things.

 

What the hell is meat? You're saying it's good to have any kind of mass on you, be it fat or muscle?

[davell]

The reason to steer clear of CC is price. If he opts out, he's opting out of 4/92. He likes NY as well and they're likely to add on at least another year, maybe two at around the same money per year. For 23 mill a year, the Cubs can add an Edwin Jackson, make a trade for another starting pitcher and have money left over to address another need as well.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

What the hell is meat? You're saying it's good to have any kind of mass on you, be it fat or muscle?

 

Holy [expletive] are you being purposely obtuse? Is this a moment of f'ng with me? What are you reading?

 

Yes, it is good to have a healthy balance of both muscle and fat. Obviously, it's better to have more muscle than fat. CJ Wilson is very well built for the job of being an MLB starting pitcher. Is this good enough?

 

The reason to steer clear of CC is price. If he opts out, he's opting out of 4/92. He likes NY as well and they're likely to add on at least another year, maybe two at around the same money per year. For 23 mill a year, the Cubs can add an Edwin Jackson, make a trade for another starting pitcher and have money left over to address another need as well.

 

Who's the traded pitcher? What will he cost in prospects and money? How much will Edwin Jackson get? Will I stay away for his starts? See it sounds so simple to go off into believing that, but Jackson + ?? pitcher will cost a good price too. Jackson is as likely to get overpaid in FA as any FA pitcher...he's a hard throwing, late 20's pitcher with ML success, a good pedigree, some postseason experience (I think), and no significant injury history....

 

I'd much rather pay CC Sabathia 5/6 125/150 than overpay for a mid-tier like Jackson and then hope for someone to show up on the trade market...The goal of the Cubs should be to shoot for the best IMO.

[Guest]

What the hell is meat? You're saying it's good to have any kind of mass on you, be it fat or muscle?

 

Holy [expletive] are you being purposely obtuse? Is this a moment of f'ng with me? What are you reading?

 

Yes, it is good to have a healthy balance of both muscle and fat. Obviously, it's better to have more muscle than fat. CJ Wilson is very well built for the job of being an MLB starting pitcher. Is this good enough?

 

CJ Wilson is closer to being Rich Harden than CC Sabathia.

 

I want to know how the hell you think body fat helps a pitcher be more durable.