Cubs to be rebuilt from the ground up?

[Little Slide Rooter]

I know, it's Phil Rodgers, but worth discussing.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-0818-rogers-cubs-draft-chicago20110818,0,428597.column?track=rss

 

Ugh, while I love the idea of putting money into the farm system, the fact is, all of these 17-19 year olds likely won't even be sniffing the majors for another 3-5 years, and considering the Cubs market and division, there's really no excuse for them not to be spending money on the current team and competing between now and then. The Cubs have the money, and there's no reason for us to have to sit through another 3-5 years of 1990's-esque teams. As for the draft class, there's no guarantee that any of these guys will be anything, and it's too much of a gamble to turn The Cubs into The Royals or Pirates between now and when they're ready.

[UMFan83]

It took them 2 years of horrible baseball for them to decide to start over?

 

The Cubs should never feel the need to rebuild from scratch. They have resources that 90% of the teams in the league cannot come close to matching.

[Guest]

Guys I'm probably going to have a rage stroke by December if someone doesn't figure out that "invest in the farm and develop talent" and spending big money on extremely talented free agents are not mutually exclusive decisions.

[UMFan83]

Guys I'm probably going to have a rage stroke by December if someone doesn't figure out that "invest in the farm and develop talent" and spending big money on extremely talented free agents are not mutually exclusive decisions.

 

Yeah now that I've read the referenced article, I don't see why this means they are rebuilding from the ground up.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Guys I'm probably going to have a rage stroke by December if someone doesn't figure out that "invest in the farm and develop talent" and spending big money on extremely talented free agents are not mutually exclusive decisions.

 

I understand that, I'm just maybe reading a bit much into the end of the article

 

This may not be good news to Pujols, Fielder or unrealistic fans who expect the Cubs to go from here to the World Series in a year or two. But long term, this is a hugely terrific development for the organization. There may be an end in sight to that long-running movie, A Patchwork Blue.

 

I really feel that if the Cubs are going to be competitive in the next year or 2, this is the type of move they need to make. The Brewers and Cards will both be getting worse in the near future, but not bad enough for the Cubs in their curent state to be able to compete with them, and who knows what's in store for the Reds and Pirates. I guess my painful memories of those 1990's Cubs teams are still a bit too fresh for me to be able to go back to those kinds of teams.

[MWV]

This may not be good news to Pujols, Fielder or unrealistic fans who expect the Cubs to go from here to the World Series in a year or two. But long term, this is a hugely terrific development for the organization. There may be an end in sight to that long-running movie, A Patchwork Blue.

What does $12 million in draft spending have to do with Pujols or Fielder?

Unless Ricketts' ultimate goal is to win the PCL, the ML club must be invested in as well. Just because the Cubs are starting to invest in their MiL system on a level similar to smaller market franchises like KC, Pittsburgh and Tampa doesn't mean they have to operate their ML team like the Royals. The BoSox spent upwards of $10 million on this draft as well. Does that mean that Theo Epstein is going to slash ML payroll?

[Little Slide Rooter]

This may not be good news to Pujols, Fielder or unrealistic fans who expect the Cubs to go from here to the World Series in a year or two. But long term, this is a hugely terrific development for the organization. There may be an end in sight to that long-running movie, A Patchwork Blue.

What does $12 million in draft spending have to do with Pujols or Fielder?

Unless Ricketts' ultimate goal is to win the PCL, the ML club must be invested in as well. Just because the Cubs are starting to invest in their MiL system on a level similar to smaller market franchises like KC, Pittsburgh and Tampa doesn't mean they have to operate their ML team like the Royals. The BoSox spent upwards of $10 million on this draft as well. Does that mean that Theo Epstein is going to slash ML payroll?

 

What it sound like he's suggesting is that Ricketts will prefer to build a team from within rather than going after pricey free agents and build that way. It's not that one affect the other, just that he might prefer not even go after the big name players. The problem is, the only teams in recent memory I can think of that have had any real success building their teams that way are the Rays and the Twins, and I don't think we have anywhere near the kind of talent that those farm systems had.

[MWV]

This may not be good news to Pujols, Fielder or unrealistic fans who expect the Cubs to go from here to the World Series in a year or two. But long term, this is a hugely terrific development for the organization. There may be an end in sight to that long-running movie, A Patchwork Blue.

What does $12 million in draft spending have to do with Pujols or Fielder?

Unless Ricketts' ultimate goal is to win the PCL, the ML club must be invested in as well. Just because the Cubs are starting to invest in their MiL system on a level similar to smaller market franchises like KC, Pittsburgh and Tampa doesn't mean they have to operate their ML team like the Royals. The BoSox spent upwards of $10 million on this draft as well. Does that mean that Theo Epstein is going to slash ML payroll?

 

What it sound like he's suggesting is that Ricketts will prefer to build a team from within rather than going after pricey free agents and build that way. It's not that one affect the other, just that he might prefer not even go after the big name players. The problem is, the only teams in recent memory I can think of that have had any real success building their teams that way are the Rays and the Twins, and I don't think we have anywhere near the kind of talent that those farm systems had.

I understand what he's getting at. I just don't think it makes any sense. A team like the Cubs needn't build from within at the expense of acquiring available talent via free agency. It is possible (optimal) to do both. Teams that draw talent almost exclusively from their farm system (TB, KC Pittsburgh, Oakland) do so because of budgetary constraints. The Cubs do not face such constraints. For them to behave as though they do would be counterproductive and stupid, and I don't think Ricketts is that dumb. Maybe I'm too optimistic...

[Little Slide Rooter]

This may not be good news to Pujols, Fielder or unrealistic fans who expect the Cubs to go from here to the World Series in a year or two. But long term, this is a hugely terrific development for the organization. There may be an end in sight to that long-running movie, A Patchwork Blue.

What does $12 million in draft spending have to do with Pujols or Fielder?

Unless Ricketts' ultimate goal is to win the PCL, the ML club must be invested in as well. Just because the Cubs are starting to invest in their MiL system on a level similar to smaller market franchises like KC, Pittsburgh and Tampa doesn't mean they have to operate their ML team like the Royals. The BoSox spent upwards of $10 million on this draft as well. Does that mean that Theo Epstein is going to slash ML payroll?

 

What it sound like he's suggesting is that Ricketts will prefer to build a team from within rather than going after pricey free agents and build that way. It's not that one affect the other, just that he might prefer not even go after the big name players. The problem is, the only teams in recent memory I can think of that have had any real success building their teams that way are the Rays and the Twins, and I don't think we have anywhere near the kind of talent that those farm systems had.

I understand what he's getting at. I just don't think it makes any sense. A team like the Cubs needn't build from within at the expense of acquiring available talent via free agency. It is possible (optimal) to do both. Teams that draw talent almost exclusively from their farm system (TB, KC Pittsburgh, Oakland) do so because of budgetary constraints. The Cubs do not face such constraints. For them to behave as though they do would be counterproductive and stupid, and I don't think Ricketts is that dumb. Maybe I'm too optimistic...

 

I definitely agree with you there. I wasted too many years of my life watching the Cubs try to build from within. At least back then, they had Sammy to build around, not that it made the results any better.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

It took them 2 years of horrible baseball for them to decide to start over?

 

The Cubs should never feel the need to rebuild from scratch. They have resources that 90% of the teams in the league cannot come close to matching.

 

Many teams can match....the problem is cheap owners choose not to.

 

The Cubs aren't being built from the ground up anyway. There is clearly a long range plan, but I'm not sure it's as prospect oriented as Rogers painted in the article. The Cubs have shown a willingness to trade prospects (the devastation of the Garza trade) as well as develop and promote (Soto and Castro as well as Barney and the relievers). That's how a rich team should be using propsects/the farm. I think he's wrong on the Fielder/Pujols thing....it's very, very, very likely the Cubs will be big players in that sweepstakes.

[Sammy Sofa]

(the devastation of the Garza trade)

 

Whut.

[erik316wttn]

This may not be good news to Pujols, Fielder or unrealistic fans who expect the Cubs to go from here to the World Series in a year or two. But long term, this is a hugely terrific development for the organization. There may be an end in sight to that long-running movie, A Patchwork Blue.

What does $12 million in draft spending have to do with Pujols or Fielder?

Unless Ricketts' ultimate goal is to win the PCL, the ML club must be invested in as well. Just because the Cubs are starting to invest in their MiL system on a level similar to smaller market franchises like KC, Pittsburgh and Tampa doesn't mean they have to operate their ML team like the Royals. The BoSox spent upwards of $10 million on this draft as well. Does that mean that Theo Epstein is going to slash ML payroll?

 

What it sound like he's suggesting is that Ricketts will prefer to build a team from within rather than going after pricey free agents and build that way. It's not that one affect the other, just that he might prefer not even go after the big name players. The problem is, the only teams in recent memory I can think of that have had any real success building their teams that way are the Rays and the Twins, and I don't think we have anywhere near the kind of talent that those farm systems had.

I understand what he's getting at. I just don't think it makes any sense. A team like the Cubs needn't build from within at the expense of acquiring available talent via free agency. It is possible (optimal) to do both. Teams that draw talent almost exclusively from their farm system (TB, KC Pittsburgh, Oakland) do so because of budgetary constraints. The Cubs do not face such constraints. For them to behave as though they do would be counterproductive and stupid, and I don't think Ricketts is that dumb. Maybe I'm too optimistic...

 

I definitely agree with you there. I wasted too many years of my life watching the Cubs try to build from within. At least back then, they had Sammy to build around, not that it made the results any better.

 

Hey, he had Rondell White and Ron Coomer in the same lineup! How they didn't win a World Series is beyond me.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

(the devastation of the Garza trade)

 

Whut.

 

Sorry I don't post often enough here to know how this board feels, but the bitchfest on another Cubs board will always have me saying something like that about the trade. The loss of Archer/Lee devastated the Cubs fans who don't really follow the minors and therefore had/have trouble putting perspective on those prospects (plus the three older backup types).

[Fred Hornkohl]

Guys I'm probably going to have a rage stroke by December if someone doesn't figure out that "invest in the farm and develop talent" and spending big money on extremely talented free agents are not mutually exclusive decisions.

 

[insert gratuitous audio clip of "Tiger Rag" here]

 

TT.... thank you for injecting that little oasis of reason into this desert of insanity !!!

[WrigleyField 22]

Guys I'm probably going to have a rage stroke by December if someone doesn't figure out that "invest in the farm and develop talent" and spending big money on extremely talented free agents are not mutually exclusive decisions.

They obviously aren't mutually exclusive, but something will give if a cost increases. Obviously the Cubs aren't going to suddenly have a $75M payroll, but $120-$125 isn't out of the question. And with our current contracts on the books that could exclude us from a big splash this off season. Long run, building within should make us a better franchise that raises even more revenue and spends more in development and free agency and we can have our cake and eat it too.

[Guest]

Well obviously there may be financial restraints, but that's clearly not what these people are talking about. People are equating a Pujols/Fielder acquisition as a Soriano waiting to happen and/or some type of band-aid/stop-gap measure that doesn't even make sense if you think about it for a quarter of an instant.

[MWV]

People are equating a Pujols/Fielder acquisition as a Soriano waiting to happen and/or some type of band-aid/stop-gap measure that doesn't even make sense if you think about it for a quarter of an instant.

This is what is truly infuriating about the whole situation. The Soriano contract will go down as one of the worst in franchise history. This does not justify the organization conflating big contracts with catastrophes. Pujols, for example, is a generational talent. He has produced only 1 season in his career (3.9 and counting, this current season) of WAR less than Soriano's best season (5.7, 2006). Pujols is an investment. If you get a chance to sign a player of his caliber, you do so first and figure out how to build around him later.

[davearm2]

People are equating a Pujols/Fielder acquisition as a Soriano waiting to happen and/or some type of band-aid/stop-gap measure that doesn't even make sense if you think about it for a quarter of an instant.

This is what is truly infuriating about the whole situation. The Soriano contract will go down as one of the worst in franchise history. This does not justify the organization conflating big contracts with catastrophes. Pujols, for example, is a generational talent. He has produced only 1 season in his career (3.9 and counting, this current season) of WAR less than Soriano's best season (5.7, 2006). Pujols is an investment. If you get a chance to sign a player of his caliber, you do so first and figure out how to build around him later.

This completely ignores that Pujols will almost certainly be progressively setting career lows in WAR throughout the length of his next contract, while being paid $25-$30M a year.

[MWV]

I presume that you feel the Cubs should not pursue Pujols? I agree he may not provide 8.0 WAR (his season average to date) at age 38, but his value in the interim should well outperform the 1.4 WAR average Soriano has provided as a Cub. My overall point is that Soriano's contract is a worst case example of a big contract. It should not be referred to as precedent.

[XZero771679666304]

I presume that you feel the Cubs should not pursue Pujols? I agree he may not provide 8.0 WAR (his season average to date) at age 38, but his value in the interim should well outperform the 1.4 WAR average Soriano has provided as a Cub. My overall point is that Soriano's contract is a worst case example of a big contract. It should not be referred to as precedent.

 

Exactly. People point to Soriano as a reason not to spend, overlooking the fact that yes, it was as ill-advised as you could imagine. You had a player who was already 30, coming off a career year (which was an outlier), two dimensional, with much of his value in his legs, and you sign him to an eight year deal.

 

And he was signed not because he was what the team needed, but because of either PR or need to boost the value of the franchise for sale purposes, depending on what you believe.

 

Drawing parallels between the Soriano deal and a potential Pujols or Fielder (especially Prince) deal is totally myopic.

[Sammy Sofa]

This completely ignores that Pujols will almost certainly be progressively setting career lows in WAR throughout the length of his next contract, while being paid $25-$30M a year.

 

The bold part isn't certain at all. He obviously will be declining at some point in the contract, but your wording makes it sound like he's all but a lock to have career-low WARs each year of his contract.

[Guest]

People are equating a Pujols/Fielder acquisition as a Soriano waiting to happen and/or some type of band-aid/stop-gap measure that doesn't even make sense if you think about it for a quarter of an instant.

This is what is truly infuriating about the whole situation. The Soriano contract will go down as one of the worst in franchise history. This does not justify the organization conflating big contracts with catastrophes. Pujols, for example, is a generational talent. He has produced only 1 season in his career (3.9 and counting, this current season) of WAR less than Soriano's best season (5.7, 2006). Pujols is an investment. If you get a chance to sign a player of his caliber, you do so first and figure out how to build around him later.

This completely ignores that Pujols will almost certainly be progressively setting career lows in WAR throughout the length of his next contract, while being paid $25-$30M a year.

 

No, no it doesn't.

[MembersOnlyJacket]

This may not be good news to Pujols, Fielder or unrealistic fans who expect the Cubs to go from here to the World Series in a year or two. But long term, this is a hugely terrific development for the organization. There may be an end in sight to that long-running movie, A Patchwork Blue.

What does $12 million in draft spending have to do with Pujols or Fielder?

Unless Ricketts' ultimate goal is to win the PCL, the ML club must be invested in as well. Just because the Cubs are starting to invest in their MiL system on a level similar to smaller market franchises like KC, Pittsburgh and Tampa doesn't mean they have to operate their ML team like the Royals. The BoSox spent upwards of $10 million on this draft as well. Does that mean that Theo Epstein is going to slash ML payroll?

 

No, but I think the Red Sox recognize the point of balance required to win year after year.

 

Current Red Sox who are home grown:

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Youkilis

Lowrie

Reddick

Varitek

Lester

Buchholz

Bard

Papelbon

 

That's 4 or 5 starters in the lineup, surrouned by a couple stars (well, more Gonzalez than Crawford). 2 solid starting pitchers and the best setup to closer combination in baseball.

 

That's how you win and also give you money to go after a couple big contracts to fill other gaps.

 

The Cubs have just spent money on what is the cool thing to do (i.e. Soriano) rather than investing in talent at its prime.

 

Finally, it doesn't help that Jim Hendry cannot hire a worthy manager for his team.

[Sammy Sofa]

The manager is relatively incidental in this kind of discussion.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Well obviously there may be financial restraints, but that's clearly not what these people are talking about. People are equating a Pujols/Fielder acquisition as a Soriano waiting to happen and/or some type of band-aid/stop-gap measure that doesn't even make sense if you think about it for a quarter of an instant.

 

While I'm all for Fielder or Pujols at any cost, I understand the concern. Looking at some of the massive contracts handed out in recent years, they just don't seem to end well. Soriano gave the Cubs 2 great years before a dreadful 2009 before becoming more productive, but nowhere worth the money in '10 and '11. Big Z was never the ace we paid for. As for other teams, the ink was barely dry on Alex Rios and Vernon Wells contracts before the Blue Jays wanted out. Barry Zito and Aaron Rowand were huge mistakes for the Giants, Jason Schmidt, Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones, and Rafeal FurcalX2 were all awful for the Dodgers. Jason Werth and Adam Dunn have both been beyong awful for their teams in the early goings of their contracts. Matt Holliday has been very good for the Cards so far, but he's only in year 2 in what I believe is a 7 year deal.

 

Looking at all of these contracts, it's easy to see why any team would be hesitant to hand out a 5-7 year contract to any player, unlessit's like the Braun, Tulo, or Longoria ones in which the team is essentially buying out the players primes at a team friendlly price.

 

It seems that anytime you give a player in their early 30's a 5-7 year contract, your essentially paying for 3 prime years and hope for the best the rest of the way. This being said, if your want to land an elite player, that's what you have to do, and for Fielder or Pujols, I'm willing to take the risk.