Can the starting pitching be fixed for 2012?

[Fro]

Garza's been solid but nowhere near a top pitcher (he is just under the league average ERA of 3.84 at 3.80). Dempster and Zambrano have both well been below league average. Dempster is certainly on the downside of his career (maybe he gives us what Garza did this year in '12 if we're lucky) and Z has so many miles on his arm at this point that I don't think you can count on him to bounce back and be what he used to be.

 

Wells has been flat-out awful. Cashner had 1 great start before he got hurt but he's still unproven and how he will come back from a major injury is unknown. Lopez has been okay for us getting him off the scrap heap but I doubt anyone wants to count on him for a full season.

 

That's why I'm really in favor of blowing this team up. If we can't fix the starting pitching and get it into the top third of the NL in 2012 we're not going to go anywhere even if we do overpay for Fielder.

[SouthSideRyan]

Garza's been solid but nowhere near a top pitcher (he is just under the league average ERA of 3.84 at 3.80). Dempster and Zambrano have both well been below league average. Dempster is certainly on the downside of his career (maybe he gives us what Garza did this year in '12 if we're lucky) and Z has so many miles on his arm at this point that I don't think you can count on him to bounce back and be what he used to be.

 

Wells has been flat-out awful. Cashner had 1 great start before he got hurt but he's still unproven and how he will come back from a major injury is unknown. Lopez has been okay for us getting him off the scrap heap but I doubt anyone wants to count on him for a full season.

 

That's why I'm really in favor of blowing this team up. If we can't fix the starting pitching and get it into the top third of the NL in 2012 we're not going to go anywhere even if we do overpay for Fielder.

 

Why do we need top third of the NL pitching to compete in the worst division in baseball?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

inb4fip

[Guest]

The 3 veterans have been better than you're implying, and adding 1 starter this offseason(CJ Wilson is a popular FA name) would put the rotation on pretty decent footing. Adding a reclamation project(what's Brandon Webb doing these days?) for depth wouldn't be the worst idea either.

[BeerHere]

Why do we need top third of the NL pitching to compete in the worst division in baseball?

Because winning the division shouldn't be the goal. If the goal is to win the WS, the division will come. This attitude drives me crazy.

[tfarks]

I was hoping for our savior Trey McNutt.

 

That didn't work out well this year.

[SouthSideRyan]

Why do we need top third of the NL pitching to compete in the worst division in baseball?

Because winning the division shouldn't be the goal. If the goal is to win the WS, the division will come. This attitude drives me crazy.

 

You can't win the WS without winning the division. (Yes, NCCub, I know the wild card exists) It's not either have the best team in the NL next year or blow it up, we're not winning until 2018. Build the best team possible next year, win the division, and take your 10% chance at winning it all.

[Guest]

Why do we need top third of the NL pitching to compete in the worst division in baseball?

Because winning the division shouldn't be the goal. If the goal is to win the WS, the division will come. This attitude drives me crazy.

 

No one is saying "make the pitching okay and stop there". Making moves that make the team better as a segue between the rotation now and the rotation that could lose Dempster and Zambrano after next season(freeing up money/rotation space to go after even better upgrades) is not settling for mediocrity. It's progression.

[MSG T]

Why do we need top third of the NL pitching to compete in the worst division in baseball?

Because winning the division shouldn't be the goal. If the goal is to win the WS, the division will come. This attitude drives me crazy.

 

 

Part of me agrees with you, but... the playoffs are a crapshoot. The Cubs had the best team in the NL in 2008 and got swept in the playoffs. How many times does the best team win the WS? The first goal should be to get to the damn playoffs. They get there enough times, they'll win the WS.

 

That being said, do I really want them to build a team aiming to be slightly better than the rest of the Central? No. But, considering the alternative, I'll take that for now.

[dew1679666265]

Why do we need top third of the NL pitching to compete in the worst division in baseball?

Because winning the division shouldn't be the goal. If the goal is to win the WS, the division will come. This attitude drives me crazy.

 

The ultimate goal should obviously be to build a World Series caliber team, however, the first key is making it into the playoffs. If you can simply make the playoffs, you have as good a chance as anybody to make and win the World Series.

 

The Cubs probably can't do enough this offseason to make this roster a World Series favorite. However, they can do enough to make this a playoff caliber team and if they make the playoffs they have the opportunity to win the World Series. We've seen plenty of teams - Cardinals and White Sox especially - recently make the playoffs with mediocre overall rosters and win because they got hot at the right time (Cardinals) or they got stellar pitching in the playoffs (White Sox). If you blow this team up this offseason, however, there's no chance the team competes even just for a playoff spot, much less a World Series - and blowing up the team would probably keep them from playoff competition for at least 2-3 years, if not more. With a big payroll team that can be a frontrunner to sign Pujols or Fielder, there's simply no reason to blow it up simply because we could be good but not elite next year.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Nope. were doomed. DOOMED! bwahahahahaha. Seriously though, 1 more solid starter coupled with an effective Andres Cashner should do the trick. Some people have suggested CJ Wilson. Edwin Jacksons another possibility. Depends on how much they want to spend. Reclamation projects like Ben Sheets or Scott Kazmir could be good plan Bs as well.

 

Garza

?

Dempster

Z

Cahsner

 

Works for me.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Why do we need top third of the NL pitching to compete in the worst division in baseball?

Because winning the division shouldn't be the goal. If the goal is to win the WS, the division will come. This attitude drives me crazy.

 

If you can win the division, you can in the WS.

[toonsterwu]

Assuming he shows a similar performance to this year, Garza's fine as the top pitcher on a NL staff. What's been impressive is that he's significantly brought down his HR/9 rate.

 

I'm fine with Dempster as the number 2 for another year. If there was an upgrade, awesome. But after the poor start, Dempster's rates are fairly solid.

 

Zambrano is better off as a 4th starter on the rotation. A dang expensive 4th starter, but salary is what it is right now. If we can get a solid mid-rotation starter, the front of the rotation, on paper, of Garza/Dempster/FA/Z would be solid.

 

Wells command collapse has been disappointing, but Wells/Cashner and others would be fine as competition for the 5th job, and we could go grab a reclamation project/cheap depth option.

 

Overall, not too concerned about the starting pitching for 2012. The bigger concern, as of now, is the lineup.

[Guancous]

It would be optimal to add a fresh name before the trade deadline.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I'm fine with Dempster as the number 2 for another year. If there was an upgrade, awesome. But after the poor start, Dempster's rates are fairly solid.

 

The poor start counts, too.

[Sammy Sofa]

Nobody said it didn't. People bring up the poor start because of how dramatically better he was after that first month. It's not the kind of thing you just shrug your shoulders over.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Nobody said it didn't. People bring up the poor start because of how dramatically better he was after that first month. It's not the kind of thing you just shrug your shoulders over.

 

Sure it is. Pitchers are usually good for stretches between their really bad starts. The fact that he had a cluster of those bad starts in the beginning doesn't absolve him of them.

[Sammy Sofa]

Nobody said it didn't. People bring up the poor start because of how dramatically better he was after that first month. It's not the kind of thing you just shrug your shoulders over.

 

Sure it is. Pitchers are usually good for stretches between their really bad starts. The fact that he had a cluster of those bad starts in the beginning doesn't absolve him of them.

 

FFS, nobody is "absolving" him. It's been brought up specifically in response to people talking about him like he's been garbage over the course of the season, and that simply isn't the case. It's an issue of accurately analyzing a player's performance instead of just declaring "Dempster has sucked this year!"

[Hairyducked Idiot]

The FIP argument is a lot more compelling to me to make a case that he hasn't really sucked this year. The .331 BABIP is killing him.

 

Unless there's some compelling reason to start measuring his stats from May 1, I don't see why we should care what his stats since May 1 are.

[Guest]

The FIP argument is a lot more compelling to me to make a case that he hasn't really sucked this year. The .331 BABIP is killing him.

 

Unless there's some compelling reason to start measuring his stats from May 1, I don't see why we should care what his stats since May 1 are.

 

 

Because his stats since May 1 are much more closely aligned with the previous 100 starts he made as a Cub than the ones from this April, which is a significant point in understanding how much of his start could be called a fluke, and how much of it would be called decline.

[Sammy Sofa]

Kyle pulling the davearm2. He must be bored.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I'm fine with Dempster as the number 2 for another year. If there was an upgrade, awesome. But after the poor start, Dempster's rates are fairly solid.

 

 

Id be more comfortable with Dempster as a 3rd starter.

[dew1679666265]

I'm fine with Dempster as the number 2 for another year. If there was an upgrade, awesome. But after the poor start, Dempster's rates are fairly solid.

 

 

Id be more comfortable with Dempster as a 3rd starter.

 

The problem is, who is out there good enough to be better than Demp? Wilson maybe, but the likelihood is that Dempster will be our second best starting pitcher going into next season. And if his horrid start were really a fluke, that'd be fine.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I'm fine with Dempster as the number 2 for another year. If there was an upgrade, awesome. But after the poor start, Dempster's rates are fairly solid.

 

 

Id be more comfortable with Dempster as a 3rd starter.

 

The problem is, who is out there good enough to be better than Demp? Wilson maybe, but the likelihood is that Dempster will be our second best starting pitcher going into next season. And if his horrid start were really a fluke, that'd be fine.

 

CJ Wilson seems to be the best guy available, unless of course anyone out there thinks we have a shot at CC. Problem is, if we do go after CJ and Fielder, it could become a very expensive endeavor, and they may need to consider moving Z or Soriano for partial salary relief.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm fine with Dempster as the number 2 for another year. If there was an upgrade, awesome. But after the poor start, Dempster's rates are fairly solid.

 

 

Id be more comfortable with Dempster as a 3rd starter.

 

The problem is, who is out there good enough to be better than Demp? Wilson maybe, but the likelihood is that Dempster will be our second best starting pitcher going into next season. And if his horrid start were really a fluke, that'd be fine.

 

CJ Wilson seems to be the best guy available, unless of course anyone out there thinks we have a shot at CC. Problem is, if we do go after CJ and Fielder, it could become a very expensive endeavor, and they may need to consider moving Z or Soriano for partial salary relief.

 

All depends on what the Ricketts are willing to spend. If the money coming off the books can be re-spent if necessary then they could easily afford both without dumping anyone.