06/16 Oakland (Gonzalez) @ CUBS (Dempster) 7:05 CDT, WGN TV

[BCVM22]

Blimey. He can't do that in the 1-run situations?

[J.R.]

That was crazy.

[UMFan83]

This would have been an enjoyable win if there wasn't that giant Toyota sign stealing everyone's fun in LF.

[DiamondMind]

I'd rather listen to 72 hours of vuvuzelas than this god forsaken song again

[imb]

it's nice when the ESPN app goes off and it's about an actual, you know, win.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Wow, were in position to possibly win our 1st series since I cant even remember when. Was it the Rangers series?

[Sammy Sofa]

i like colvin, i just dont think he's any good

 

That's not the point. The point is he's our best option right now.

 

No, he's not.

[Little Slide Rooter]

i like colvin, i just dont think he's any good

 

That's not the point. The point is he's our best option right now.

 

No, he's not.

 

Hes 1 of 2 consistant hitters this teams had all season, the other 1 being Byrd, so yeah, hes the best option right now. He'll never be as good of a defensive outfielder as Kosuke, but the main problem for this team has been offense, not defense and as long as he can provide some, he deserves to play.

[Sammy Sofa]

i like colvin, i just dont think he's any good

 

That's not the point. The point is he's our best option right now.

 

No, he's not.

 

Hes 1 of 2 consistant hitters this teams had all season, the other 1 being Byrd, so yeah, hes the best option right now. He'll never be as good of a defensive outfielder as Kosuke, but the main problem for this team has been offense, not defense and as long as he can provide some, he deserves to play.

 

Over who? If you seriously expect them to be able to trade Kosuke for anything of value it makes absolutely no sense to effectively bench him for Colvin. Colvin will get plenty of AB's between pinch hits and starting for Byrd and Soriano when they get days off. If he's going to be playing full time he needs to go back down the minors.

[Little Slide Rooter]

i like colvin, i just dont think he's any good

 

That's not the point. The point is he's our best option right now.

 

No, he's not.

 

Hes 1 of 2 consistant hitters this teams had all season, the other 1 being Byrd, so yeah, hes the best option right now. He'll never be as good of a defensive outfielder as Kosuke, but the main problem for this team has been offense, not defense and as long as he can provide some, he deserves to play.

 

Over who? If you seriously expect them to be able to trade Kosuke for anything of value it makes absolutely no sense to effectively bench him for Colvin. Colvin will get plenty of AB's between pinch hits and starting for Byrd and Soriano when they get days off. If he's going to be playing full time he needs to go back down the minors.

 

As long as hes hot, he needs to start, at least vs. righties. Its a tough predicament, in which we have 5 potentially productive hitters, all outfielders, and obviously, we can only play 3, or 4 in AL home interleague games. You obviously cant platoon Colvin and Kosuke, and theres no reason to give Byrd a platoon partner, and while at times, I would like to see Soriano with platoon mate, its not going to happen. They want to get Colvin PT, and Kosukes the odd man out. Obviously, the catch 22 there is that if they were serious about trading Kosuke for anything of value, benching him for Colvin isnt exactly the way to go.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Little Slide Rooter

[J.R.]

6.5 back.

[Friendly Confines]

6.5 back.

 

Haha I was just coming on here to post this. Our division is so bad and if our team was playing half as well as it should be we would be right in contention.

[DiamondMind]

How could anyone rather see Fukucopter in there than Colvin lately!?

 

Against RHP, where I assume the argument is here, Colvin is out OPS'ing him by literally a good 200 points. Colvin's also sporting a sick .655 SLG% against righties during the same four week span.

 

Also, why are people comparing him to Dutch Value. You can't judge everything by minor league sabr! I have a single argument: Casey McGehee.

 

I'm NOT SAYING anything Colvin is currently doing is sustainable. I'm just saying right now, at this specific moment in time, there is NO EXCUSE for him to not be in there EVERY DAY against RHP.

Edited June 17, 2010 by DiamondMind

[Sammy Sofa]

As long as hes hot, he needs to start at least vs. righties. Its a tough predicament, in which we have 5 potentially productive hitters, all outfielders, and obviously, we can only play 3, or 4 in AL home interleague games. You obviously cant platoon Colvin and Kosuke, and theres no reason to give Byrd a platoon partner, and while at times, I would like to see Soriano with platoon mate, its not going to happen. They want to get Colvin PT, and Kosukes the odd man out. Obviously, the catch 22 there is that if they were serious about trading Kosuke for anything of value, benching him for Colvin isnt exactly the way to go.

 

It's not a catch-22; you don't bench a typically productive player you hope to trade for an unproven one who has to keep hitting at or around his current ridiculous level to justify his starts due to his defensive shortcomings. Colvin will still get plenty of AB's up here even if he's not starting regularly over one of the other OF.

[Sammy Sofa]

Also, why are people comparing him to Dutch Value. You can't judge everything by minor league sabr! I have a single argument: Casey McGehee.

 

Come on. McGehee is not a good player. We should be praying that Colvin isn't another McGehee.

[DiamondMind]

It's not a catch-22; you don't bench a typically productive player you hope to trade for an unproven one who has to keep hitting at or around his current ridiculous level to justify his starts due to his defensive shortcomings. Colvin will still get plenty of AB's up here even if he's not starting regularly over one of the other OF.

 

Are you talking about Fukudome? A typically productive player? Are you watching the same games I am? 715 OPS in May and dipping to an abomination like 552 OPS this month.

 

This happens EVERY YEAR. He starts off hot (fukudome), and everyones like oh hey he gets on base he's a pretty preductive guy. Then the wheels fall off in late may/early june and its downhill fukucopter drilling into the batters box from then on.

[DiamondMind]

Also, why are people comparing him to Dutch Value. You can't judge everything by minor league sabr! I have a single argument: Casey McGehee.

 

Come on. McGehee is not a good player. We should be praying that Colvin isn't another McGehee.

 

I'm not saying he's a good player! I'm saying Milwaukee has the brains, unlike us, to ride the hot hand until it's over. Of course Casey won't keep this up forever, but he is right now! So is Colvin!

 

Look, all I want is to stop looking three years in the future and talking about development and expected value and all this [expletive], and worry about how to not blow tomorrows game. We can't even get to .500. Colvin helps us win RIGHT NOW. That's the end of it as far as I'm concerned with him and Fukudome.

[Sammy Sofa]

Also, why are people comparing him to Dutch Value. You can't judge everything by minor league sabr! I have a single argument: Casey McGehee.

 

Come on. McGehee is not a good player. We should be praying that Colvin isn't another McGehee.

 

I'm not saying he's a good player! I'm saying Milwaukee has the brains, unlike us, to ride the hot hand until it's over. Of course Casey won't keep this up forever, but he is right now! So is Colvin!

 

But that's really not "brains." It's the Brewers not having a better option. They got lucky that McGehee had the stretch that he did, but in the big picture it's basically meaningless. Colvin, unlike McGehee, actually has a shot at being a productive part of this team for an extended period of time, even if his ceiling does end up being basically a 4th OF. With a player like Colvin you don't "ride his hot hand;" you get him in the minors starting full time working with the coaches to see if his new found power isn't a fluke and what type of player he can ultimately be. The answer isn't to prop him to be some kind of short term savior or boost because he hasn't demonstrated anything before this year that showed he can be that player. This current team isn't worth potentially wasting whatever potential he has. RIGHT NOW isn't and should not be important with this team.

[DiamondMind]

Also, why are people comparing him to Dutch Value. You can't judge everything by minor league sabr! I have a single argument: Casey McGehee.

 

Come on. McGehee is not a good player. We should be praying that Colvin isn't another McGehee.

 

I'm not saying he's a good player! I'm saying Milwaukee has the brains, unlike us, to ride the hot hand until it's over. Of course Casey won't keep this up forever, but he is right now! So is Colvin!

 

But that's really not "brains." It's the Brewers not having a better option. They got lucky that McGehee had the stretch that he did, but in the big picture it's basically meaningless. Colvin, unlike McGehee, actually has a shot at being a productive part of this team for an extended period of time, even if his ceiling does end up being basically a 4th OF. With a player like Colvin you don't "ride his hot hand;" you get him in the minors starting full time working with the coaches to see if his new found power isn't a fluke and what type of player he can ultimately be. The answer isn't to prop him to be some kind of short term savior or boost because he hasn't demonstrated anything before this year that showed he can be that player. This current team isn't worth potentially wasting whatever potential he has.

 

What happened to Mat Gamel? How the hell is McGehee meaningless, he was leading the NL in RBI's last I checked. Is there some magic X number where things stop becoming a fluke and become an admittedly rare reality? What about Randy Wells? What was your opinion on him last year?

 

How the hell could you advocate sending Colvin to the minors right now? Trading Fukudome to Seattle for Milton Bradley makes more sense than not promoting Colvin to FT right now. Look at the Cardinals, is David Freese some freaking top prospect? No. They COACH players and MAKE THEM BETTER. The problem with this team is not Colvin or Fukudome or your opinion on McGehee. It's that this team, this franchise, can't coach a player out of a paper bag. Let me ask you this, if Colvin was on the Cardinals, do you think he'd be out there with Rasmus or in AAA? I really think you're just playing devil's advocate here - it is simply beyond my comprehension how you're advocating what you are.

 

And Fukudome blows.

[Sammy Sofa]

What happened to Mat Gamel? How the hell is McGehee meaningless, he was leading the NL in RBI's last I checked. Is there some magic X number where things stop becoming a fluke and become an admittedly rare reality?

 

He's been horrendous over the last month. His history before his surge couple with his peripherals as well as his recent history would argue much more in favor of "prolonged fluke" than anything else.

 

What about Randy Wells? What was your opinion on him last year?

 

He was a pleasant surprise, but he's definitely still a work in progress. I hope he pans out, but his recent struggles plus how many of his key numbers trended in the second half last year indicate that nobody should really have a conclusion about him at this point.

 

How the hell could you advocate sending Colvin to the minors right now?

 

Because he needs to be coached well and he needs to show that he can have the type of success he's had so far, or some variation thereof, as a full time player. It's simply much smarter to do that in the minors when your team is set in terms of starting OF and it's with a player who hasn't demonstrated anything like this when he has been a full time player.

 

Trading Fukudome to Seattle for Milton Bradley makes more sense than not promoting Colvin to FT right now. Look at the Cardinals, is David Freese some freaking top prospect? No. They COACH players and MAKE THEM BETTER. The problem with this team is not Colvin or Fukudome or your opinion on McGehee. It's that this team, this franchise, can't coach a player out of a paper bag.

 

I agree with the final point, which is one of the reasons I'd prefer him starting in the minors. It's better for him and the Cubs in terms of the bigger picture.

 

Let me ask you this, if Colvin was on the Cardinals, do you think he'd be out there with Rasmus or in AAA? I really think you're just playing devil's advocate here - it is simply beyond my comprehension how you're advocating what you are.

 

I think you're really overstating that final part. The Cubs are not lacking for quality starting OF players and this team as it's constructed really isn't worth potentially sidetracking a player's development. If there's a chance Colvin can be a productive starter then he needs to be doing in full time in the minors since he's yet to demonstrate down there that he could be a productive starter. Colvin's success so far this season is by no mean proof in that regard, and it simply isn't realistic or smart to plug him in as one of the Cubs starting OF right now. Why possibly waste any potential he has on a team this bad? Let him get the coaching he needs.

[Sammy Sofa]

And Fukudome blows.

 

You may think he blows, but the odds are much, much more in his favor in regards to being more productive for the Cubs this season than Colvin. It also makes little sense to bench him if you expect or hope the Cubs to trade him and get a decent return and/or not to have to pick up too much of his salary.

[DiamondMind]

Because he needs to be coached well and he needs to show that he can have the type of success he's had so far, or some variation thereof, as a full time player. It's simply much smarter to do that in the minors when your team is set in terms of starting OF and it's with a player who hasn't demonstrated anything like this when he has been a full time player.

 

I'm not convinced at all we're teaching our players concurrent approaches from the minors to the bigs, fwiw. I always feel like we don't adequately prepare our prospects for the bigs anyway, so it's pointless. And on top of that, what's Rudy Jaramillo for?

 

I agree with a fair amount of stuff you post on this board, but not this one. Agree to disagree.

[Sammy Sofa]

Because he needs to be coached well and he needs to show that he can have the type of success he's had so far, or some variation thereof, as a full time player. It's simply much smarter to do that in the minors when your team is set in terms of starting OF and it's with a player who hasn't demonstrated anything like this when he has been a full time player.

 

I'm not convinced at all we're teaching our players concurrent approaches from the minors to the bigs, fwiw. I always feel like we don't adequately prepare our prospects for the bigs anyway, so it's pointless. And on top of that, what's Rudy Jaramillo for?

 

Rudy's here to coach hitting. Colvin still needs coaching beyond just his hitting. Unless he's going to keep hitting out of his mind, any hopes of him being a productive starting OF will be dashed if his defense doesn't improve.

 

Look, the Cubs just don't need to start Colvin right now. The team as it stands simply isn't worth forcing him into a position that's almost certainly going to be over his head at this point. He hasn't proven he can be a productive starting OF in the minors yet (in terms of his potential as a starter in the majors), so why assume he can be a productive starting OF based on a very limited sample size as a part time player in the majors?

[DiamondMind]

I'm not sure if this is relevant to this discussion or not, but I'm just curious, what would you do with Vitters? edit - this has nothing to do with colvin, Im just curious.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm not sure if this is relevant to this discussion or not, but I'm just curious, what would you do with Vitters? edit - this has nothing to do with colvin, Im just curious.

 

You mean right now? Nothing. He still has a ton of work ahead of him in the minors and he's only 20.